Red Wings hire Mike Barwis

[Bench]

An advanced weight lifter with no college education but a real world self-taught education would triumph described degree holders in this particular area. Degrees only go so far.

Citation needed.

The whole point behind a degree in sports science (and any science degree) is to acquire the skills needed to understand data and test techniques via the scientific method to discover what actually works. Any experience weened from trial and error is anecdotal. Knowledge obtained via published studies has been peer reviewed and shown to be statistically significant with results that can be replicated.

The real world weight lifter in your scenario may be onto something, but without some kind of rigor to the claims, that's impossible to say for certain. The academic degrees seek to fill that gap between "This seems to work" and "I know this works... And it works this percent and here's how I think we can refine it."

 

[turkleton85]

Here is the start of the very 1st sentence of my post:

"Most personal trainers and none pro level strength and conditioning coaches"

Strength and conditioning coaches at high levels typically (even if not through their very own bodies) trained individuals through trial an error and eventually gained advanced knowledge in the real world to be supplemented with their education. There is a difference between someone with the same degree who practices it with regular level individuals and one who strives to achieve great success ultimately earning themselves roles at professional levels. These people trained numerous athletes monitoring them at such close levels its no different had they trained their own bodies. Same concept as someone who trains themselves with mediocre success vs someone who trains themselves succeeding at high levels. Same degree or not does not mean their abilities are in the same stratosphere. 10 years lifting vs another with 10 years lifting does not mean they are in the same stratosphere either. So with that said, most people who attain these degrees and even continue practicing it for a living aren't qualified to train at elite levels. An advanced weight lifter with no college education but a real world self-taught education would triumph described degree holders in this particular area. Degrees only go so far.

Pretty easy to understand right?

you're right in a way, as it's always a mixture of experience and education (as bench also said). But strength & conditioning consists of more than just weight training, like i said, this might be the reason the wings fell behind in this regard. A guy who lifted weights might know how to get stronger, but does he know how to program jumps or complex and contrast methods into his training? Does he know about periodisation beyond his own lifting experience or how to realise what periodisation modell does fit a certain athlete?

But maybe i am a little bitter and biased. Here in germany, i've met many guys like that in my work envirement, and these guys practically destroyed the market value of people with a college education, because clubs are not interested or educated enough to see the difference between a "self taught" talker who gains his knowledge of some online fitness site and youtube and someone who has a scientific education and also has practical experience.

 

[Henkka]

You are spot on sir.

Also, Ice Hockey for the NES taught me that a team full of fatties is always the way to go.

As evidence, notice the 3 fatties to only 1 skinny guy ratio on the team that scored the goal whilst the other team has only 1 single fatty.

View attachment 247813

Hahaha. Loved that game.

Always played with Sovjets, two big guys felt good, they were Fetisov and Kasatonov for me, small guy was Larionov and that middle sized was Makarov). Maybe a good joke would have been tank-styled Krutov being that big guy too...

But was furious too because Finland wasn't on the game.

Poland, what a heck...

 

[Peter Tosh]

This will be interesting to follow. We have had problems with injuries but also with players developing to slowly and not reaching what was thought to be their potential. I’m thinking of Jurco, Frk, Pulkkinen, Mrazek, Smith, Kindl and Sheahan, but also Mantha who has taken a long time to reach his current level. It is possible that a higher level of quality in health and conditioning could have been beneficial in some of these cases.

 

[Henkka]

This will be interesting to follow. We have had problems with injuries but also with players developing to slowly and not reaching what was thought to be their potential. I’m thinking of Jurco, Frk, Pulkkinen, Mrazek, Smith, Kindl and Sheahan, but also Mantha who has taken a long time to reach his current level. It is possible that a higher level of quality in health and conditioning could have been beneficial in some of these cases.

I think the problem is mostly a lack of staff. When looking on that team page, I'm quite sure only Piet van Zant and Russ Bauman could have been there on the 90's.

Horcoff was added lately, Cleary was added, this Brabdon Naurato was added. Team Dietician Lisa McDowell was added at some point. They have been hiring new people during the years, but maybe some new thing Yzerman is now planning to do, is to add more people on the mix. More team-based personal training. I could think it has been more individual based, that player himself pays for training help from somebody and it could vary, many methods, good or bad, from different people.

Now maybe it will now be just totally hockey-concentrated training.

 

[deca guard]

This will be interesting to follow. We have had problems with injuries but also with players developing to slowly and not reaching what was thought to be their potential. I’m thinking of Jurco, Frk, Pulkkinen, Mrazek, Smith, Kindl and Sheahan, but also Mantha who has taken a long time to reach his current level. It is possible that a higher level of quality in health and conditioning could have been beneficial in some of these cases.

A#1 is red wings nutritionist knows ZILCH . ive seen the post game or when ever food tables wings create and i could faint because its such unhealthy trash . then the order to dekeyser to eat anything he wants . theres no words to explain how far off correct and behind times red wing nutritional program is . its a downfall of the ilitch loyalty outlook , when you stay loyal to people and they arent challenged or reveiwed and replaced if not cutting edge you fall off the pace set by teams on the cutting edge . lots of arrogance amongst nhl brass who've had an earthly hockey monopoly so long that they think theyve got it all figured out when in many instances thats not the case . yes i dont blame people that've had great success for a long time for sticking to their guns , but in so very many instances in the nhl a changing of the guard has become the order of the day starting right at the very top of the league !

 

[Ricelund]

Is Aaron Downey still involved with the Wings or Griffins at all?

 

[Konnan511]

Here is the start of the very 1st sentence of my post:

"Most personal trainers and none pro level strength and conditioning coaches"

Strength and conditioning coaches at high levels typically (even if not through their very own bodies) trained individuals through trial an error and eventually gained advanced knowledge in the real world to be supplemented with their education. There is a difference between someone with the same degree who practices it with regular level individuals and one who strives to achieve great success ultimately earning themselves roles at professional levels. These people trained numerous athletes monitoring them at such close levels its no different had they trained their own bodies. Same concept as someone who trains themselves with mediocre success vs someone who trains themselves succeeding at high levels. Same degree or not does not mean their abilities are in the same stratosphere. 10 years lifting vs another with 10 years lifting does not mean they are in the same stratosphere either. So with that said, most people who attain these degrees and even continue practicing it for a living aren't qualified to train at elite levels. An advanced weight lifter with no college education but a real world self-taught education would triumph described degree holders in this particular area. Degrees only go so far.

Pretty easy to understand right?

I was a strength and conditioning coach at the college level (D-1 and D-3), this is false. Super false. Schooling prepares you for being a strength and conditioning coach with the many many many classes you take. Maybe if you clarify what you mean by trial and error, I could get on board, but I trained based off of science and the thousands of articles I read during my courses with great success. I tweaked a couple things depending on the athlete, but the majority (read 95%+) of my training came from my courses and field studies.

 

[newfy]

An advanced weight lifter with no college education but a real world self-taught education would triumph described degree holders in this particular area. Degrees only go so far.

Pretty easy to understand right?

Lol woooo bro science lets go!!!!!

I was a strength and conditioning coach at the college level (D-1 and D-3), this is false. Super false. Schooling prepares you for being a strength and conditioning coach with the many many many classes you take. Maybe if you clarify what you mean by trial and error, I could get on board, but I trained based off of science and the thousands of articles I read during my courses with great success. I tweaked a couple things depending on the athlete, but the majority (read 95%+) of my training came from my courses and field studies.

It is ridiculously false and the epitome of a guy who trained himself and got some good results thinking hes smarter than anyone in the room. Why would years of scientific research and education matter when you taught yourself to deadlift off youtube videos and got good results??

 

[Hen Kolland]

Lol woooo bro science lets go!!!!!



It is ridiculously false and the epitome of a guy who trained himself and got some good results thinking hes smarter than anyone in the room. Why would years of scientific research and education matter when you taught yourself to deadlift off youtube videos and got good results??

The worst part is that he believes that because he got good results through self-teaching and knowledge sharing with other people at the gym, that somehow the science behind the success is different. Yes, training can be tweaked to be optimized for a particular person and what they respond to best, but the overall principles don't change. It's like all the fad diets and weight loss; be it intermittent fasting or keto or IIFYM or Weight Watchers or *insert diet plan here* it will all boil down to caloric deficit for a particular body. Different ways to skin a cat, but if you aren't in caloric deficit, you aren't losing. If you aren't getting the appropriate time under tension, if you aren't optimizing your form, if you aren't pushing the limitations of the body, chances are you aren't getting the level of results that you could be getting.

All the people who have studied this have a better understanding and appreciation of those basic principles, and as a result are more qualified to work professional athletes than the juiced gym rat at your local Powerhouse.

 

[newfy]

The worst part is that he believes that because he got good results through self-teaching and knowledge sharing with other people at the gym, that somehow the science behind the success is different. Yes, training can be tweaked to be optimized for a particular person and what they respond to best, but the overall principles don't change. It's like all the fad diets and weight loss; be it intermittent fasting or keto or IIFYM or Weight Watchers or *insert diet plan here* it will all boil down to caloric deficit for a particular body. Different ways to skin a cat, but if you aren't in caloric deficit, you aren't losing. If you aren't getting the appropriate time under tension, if you aren't optimizing your form, if you aren't pushing the limitations of the body, chances are you aren't getting the level of results that you could be getting.

All the people who have studied this have a better understanding and appreciation of those basic principles, and as a result are more qualified to work professional athletes than the juiced gym rat at your local Powerhouse.

The people who have studied them also have a more well rounded knowledge base on how to apply them to different people and needs. Its a lot different making a workout plan for 35 guys vs just for yourself. Getting results doesnt always mean youre doing things right either, just because you luckily have avoided injury doesnt mean you always will

 

[haulinbass]

I was a strength and conditioning coach at the college level (D-1 and D-3), this is false. Super false. Schooling prepares you for being a strength and conditioning coach with the many many many classes you take. Maybe if you clarify what you mean by trial and error, I could get on board, but I trained based off of science and the thousands of articles I read during my courses with great success. I tweaked a couple things depending on the athlete, but the majority (read 95%+) of my training came from my courses and field studies.

I never did say going to school can't get you a job as a college strength and conditioning coach. It still doesn't make you a great candidate to train guys at high end strength levels. Most D1 basketball, hockey, baseball, track athletes aren't exceptionally strong. Unless your talking a top in the nation D1 football programs. Yeah sure, I've seen plenty of 6'4 guys with skulls on them the size of horses who put up huge numbers in lesser college football programs. Most of those guys aren't using their college strength program anyways. I have a couple good buddies who are ex pro football players who squat 800+ and bench 500. They paid a lot of money per month to have professional power lifters guide them in through video, phone and texting services on a weekly basis. Even considering they played for a professional football team with strength and conditioning coaches likely superior to college programs. On top of that, can you take an average bone/joint structured individual around say 5'11 - 6'1 and guide him to numbers anywhere close to that? Probably not. School doesn't teach you that. Unless you been there yourself or through others you probably don't have the real world knowledge of the techniques and tactics to overcome plateaus at those levels. Hence my original point, just because you got a degree don't judge exceptionally strong individuals who utilize above parallel techniques and other tactics that don't make sense to you. Consider the strongest guys on the planet utilize these techniques. If you have your degree and have truly trained individuals to world class strength levels, then by all means your exempt from my argument.

That is all I'm saying here. This conversation has just simply went to far for the very specific point I was trying to make regarding a specific type of athlete in a very specific range of strength. Are some strength and conditioning coaches capable of this? Absolutely, never said they weren't.

 

[haulinbass]

The worst part is that he believes that because he got good results through self-teaching and knowledge sharing with other people at the gym, that somehow the science behind the success is different. Yes, training can be tweaked to be optimized for a particular person and what they respond to best, but the overall principles don't change. It's like all the fad diets and weight loss; be it intermittent fasting or keto or IIFYM or Weight Watchers or *insert diet plan here* it will all boil down to caloric deficit for a particular body. Different ways to skin a cat, but if you aren't in caloric deficit, you aren't losing. If you aren't getting the appropriate time under tension, if you aren't optimizing your form, if you aren't pushing the limitations of the body, chances are you aren't getting the level of results that you could be getting.

All the people who have studied this have a better understanding and appreciation of those basic principles, and as a result are more qualified to work professional athletes than the juiced gym rat at your local Powerhouse.

Why would the science behind it change? When did I say I haven't trained other individuals just because I stated it is not currently my career. I also went to college for it.

Can you give me an example of this science you are referring to that you learned in college that is critical to understand for someone trying to put up large numbers in the gym? I would need an example to understand what you are trying to get across here.

Is there something about diet a none degree holder wouldn't being able to properly execute without a minor in nutrition? Is there something about muscle movements that requires extensive kinesiology course work in order to have correct form in the gym? To be honest all the standard by the book compound movements are obsolete for elite strength training. Most strength and conditioning classes still teach a standard bench press. Good luck with your shoulders benching 400+ utilizing that form. This is one of the most common issues people come to me with and always 100% corrected with powerlifting techniques not taught in college (atleast at that time).

Can you explain to me what specific courses in a strength and conditioning degree program (or similar) that would educate an individual who is benching 485 to overcome a plateau they been stuck on for 8 months? Oh, don't think they teach that.

We aren't building a space shuttle to land on Mars here dude. But you are right, book work triumphs real world experience and success. Oh and I forgot that you can't go on Amazon and order any college book you want. I guess the knowledge only is gained when you pay $20,0000 a year to read them. Good philosophy that self educating isn't effective.

 

[izlez]

Trial and error in real life experience is the way to go.

But when you take the trial and error of thousands of people's real life experiences, write it down, and call it "science", it becomes less useful.

Got it.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Why would the science behind it change? When did I say I haven't trained other individuals just because I stated it is not currently my career. I also went to college for it.

Can you give me an example of this science you are referring to that you learned in college that is critical to understand for someone trying to put up large numbers in the gym? I would need an example to understand what you are trying to get across here.

Is there something about diet a none degree holder wouldn't being able to properly execute without a minor in nutrition? Is there something about muscle movements that requires extensive kinesiology course work in order to have correct form in the gym? To be honest all the standard by the book compound movements are obsolete for elite strength training. Most strength and conditioning classes still teach a standard bench press. Good luck with your shoulders benching 400+ utilizing that form. This is one of the most common issues people come to me with and always 100% corrected with powerlifting techniques not taught in college (atleast at that time).

Can you explain to me what specific courses in a strength and conditioning degree program (or similar) that would educate an individual who is benching 485 to overcome a plateau they been stuck on for 8 months? Oh, don't think they teach that.

We aren't building a space shuttle to land on Mars here dude. But you are right, book work triumphs real world experience and success. Oh and I forgot that you can't go on Amazon and order any college book you want. I guess the knowledge only is gained when you pay $20,0000 a year to read them. Good philosophy that self educating isn't effective.

I didn't say that you can't self-educate and have success, and I certainly can't discredit it because that's literally all I use. The difference is, I'm an average guy doing it for my own enjoyment and health. I am not a world class athlete. I am not trying to deadlift the earth; I don't get gratification from bragging about how much weight I move in the gym the way that you clearly do. In the world of sports, training the way that you are talking about is pretty meaningless. Benching 400 pounds is just a number and realistically is going to be useless in almost every single sport outside of in the trenches of football. Getting to the point where you are squatting 800+ is more detrimental to your sport specific athletic ability than it is useful.

So when you come into a thread about the hiring of a strength and conditioning professional who specializes in sport specific programming and a history of success, whose expertise is rooted in his studies in exercise science and application of his education, and your input was all the hot take opinions you have spewed about the inadequacies of someone who has taken the route of studying the science behind the results compared to the guy who decided "learn on the job", don't be shocked when people disagree with your philosophy. Especially when you frame every single post in a confrontational manner.

 

[ShelbyZ]

Is Aaron Downey still involved with the Wings or Griffins at all?

I've wondered this myself. I know for a while he would usually be in Traverse City for the prospect tournament after he retired after he was named a "part time strength and conditioning coach" for the Griffins, but haven't heard much of him in recent years. He never ended up listed on "staff" on either the Wings or Griffins site, so I'm guessing he didn't take the offer mentioned in this old Free Press article:

The Wings hired him to work a couple of weeks each month with their prospects who played for the Grand Rapids Griffins. The trial run as a strength coach worked out so well that Downey was back working the summer development camp in Traverse City.
While Griffins coach Curt Fraser oversaw the on-ice workouts, Downey helped lead the prospects during their off-ice training activities.
Downey might accompany the Griffins on a few road trips this season. He made the drive to Grand Rapids from his home in Shelburne, Ontario, only when the Griffins had a stretch of home games last season.
“We’re going to sit down and talk to him,” Wings assistant general manager Jim Nill said of Downey. “Development is so much a part of the game now. I think he really bonded well with those young guys.”

According to an article from last fall(?) in one of those boring "Costco Connection" magazines that Costco sends their members, he's got his own strength training business somewhere in Ontario.

Wait, having prospects bag potatoes for Aaron Downey only benefited Downey farms? Shocker!

All joking aside, I remember Downey was trying to get the Griffins to do Yoga: Newly retired Aaron Downey becomes Griffins' unofficial yoga guru - mlive.com

Downey seems to be into some crazy stuff... It was taken down a long time ago, but there was a Youtube video from a pre-game show when he was with the Stars where they went to his farm to see him work out. I swear part of it was him running up some hill carrying 5/6 feet of a decent sized tree trunk on his shoulders.

Here's a recent video about his favorite sauna's. Wonder if he learned that from Chris Chelios?

 

[Retire91]

love a good sauna after a workout hot damn

 

[Winger98]

Downey seems to be into some crazy stuff... It was taken down a long time ago, but there was a Youtube video from a pre-game show when he was with the Stars where they went to his farm to see him work out. I swear part of it was him running up some hill carrying 5/6 feet of a decent sized tree trunk on his shoulders.

Here's a recent video about his favorite sauna's. Wonder if he learned that from Chris Chelios?

Found it:

 

[Henkka]

It's interesting when these former players here and there turn instantly to some kind of Strength/physical coaches. How is their education? Is that based on the latest study made? Or just for own feelings. Or could it be like Cleary, training with 10-year old methods which existed on his playing career?

Have they studied those things? Like Cullen, went straight on to Pens developmental coach, when retired. Or Kunitz, doing the same (at Chicago?). How new and modern are their methods? It could be that some 10-year-old method, which was the best 10 years ago, and did work for them on the last decade, from 30-year old to 40-year old. But is it the newest thing on the board and best for young players? Young players could need different kind of methods/programs.

 

[RedWingsDad]

The worst part is that he believes that because he got good results through self-teaching and knowledge sharing with other people at the gym, that somehow the science behind the success is different. Yes, training can be tweaked to be optimized for a particular person and what they respond to best, but the overall principles don't change. It's like all the fad diets and weight loss; be it intermittent fasting or keto or IIFYM or Weight Watchers or *insert diet plan here* it will all boil down to caloric deficit for a particular body. Different ways to skin a cat, but if you aren't in caloric deficit, you aren't losing. If you aren't getting the appropriate time under tension, if you aren't optimizing your form, if you aren't pushing the limitations of the body, chances are you aren't getting the level of results that you could be getting.

All the people who have studied this have a better understanding and appreciation of those basic principles, and as a result are more qualified to work professional athletes than the juiced gym rat at your local Powerhouse.

In general, real world experience trumps that crap you learn in college.. 99% of which most people forget. I say this as a person who has gone to college and as a person who has been a hiring manager. I’m not saying that the college never matters or doesn’t help but you people are just wrong who are piling on the guy who is saying real world experience is more important.

p.s. fun fact, it’s also very possible to learn super duper fancy cutting edge techniques without college! It’s called books, the internet, and learning from your peers. #collegeisoverrrated

 

[izlez]

In general, real world experience trumps that crap you learn in college.. 99% of which most people forget. I say this as a person who has gone to college and as a person who has been a hiring manager. I’m not saying that the college never matters or doesn’t help but you people are just wrong who are piling on the guy who is saying real world experience is more important.

p.s. fun fact, it’s also very possible to learn super duper fancy cutting edge techniques without college! It’s called books, the internet, and learning from your peers. #collegeisoverrrated

The problem is he is framing it in the way that Experience > College + Experience

You forgetting 99% of what you learned is your problem. You just can not say "First hand experience is better than science and/or college", because again, science and/or college is just compiling "first hand experience" of thousands and thousands of people. If you don't know how to use that, that's on you.

 

[obey86]

I was a strength and conditioning coach at the college level (D-1 and D-3), this is false. Super false. Schooling prepares you for being a strength and conditioning coach with the many many many classes you take. Maybe if you clarify what you mean by trial and error, I could get on board, but I trained based off of science and the thousands of articles I read during my courses with great success. I tweaked a couple things depending on the athlete, but the majority (read 95%+) of my training came from my courses and field studies.

Idk. For example, for doctors and other healthcare professionals it's considered the "practice" of medicine for a reason. The idea behind it being a practice is that it's not an exact science but instead something that is continually learned and fine tuned over time. So even though you have learned the foundations and technical skills you need, you are still practicing to fine tune those skills with every person you take care of, and every person's body is not the same and does not respond the same.

Maybe i'm misunderstanding the conversation going on, I only skimmed, but it seems as if education and real life experience (practice) are both extremely important.

 

[Hen Kolland]

In general, real world experience trumps that crap you learn in college.. 99% of which most people forget. I say this as a person who has gone to college and as a person who has been a hiring manager. I’m not saying that the college never matters or doesn’t help but you people are just wrong who are piling on the guy who is saying real world experience is more important.

p.s. fun fact, it’s also very possible to learn super duper fancy cutting edge techniques without college! It’s called books, the internet, and learning from your peers. #collegeisoverrrated

College is absolutely overrated in some instances, but you wouldn't go see a doctor to care for you based solely on them having access to college textbooks and medical journals online. There is an expectation of what is expected from someone working with and caring for the body. When it comes to the human body, there has been enough research and testing done to boil it down to a science. One person's experience and his small circle of acquaintances does not hold water when compared to the number of studies done and compiled to be referenced as scientific evidence. This is not a campaign against experienced professionals in a field, and I would never consider hiring someone for a position of this importance who is fresh out of college with no real life experience.

I don't think you need to be a degree-holding professional to be a personal trainer for the average person looking to get into shape, and in that instance I would 110% look to a trainer who looks like they have spent years doing what I am aiming to do. However, these strength and conditioning guys like Barwis are brought on specifically to build functional strength, stamina, and to prevent injury; they aren't hiring someone to develop powerlifters and bodybuilders or trying to help the average person lead a healthier lifestyle, they are leading and supporting the best athletes in the world.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Idk. For example, for doctors and other healthcare professionals it's considered the "practice" of medicine for a reason. The idea behind it being a practice is that it's not an exact science but instead something that is continually learned and fine tuned over time. So even though you have learned the foundations and technical skills you need, you are still practicing to fine tune those skills with every person you take care of, and every person's body is not the same and does not respond the same.

Maybe i'm misunderstanding the conversation going on, I only skimmed, but it seems as if education and real life experience (practice) are both extremely important.

This is a tricky one because there are so many slightly different definitions of the word "practice". Practice as verb can mean: do something repeatedly to improve at it, or it could mean: to apply your knowledge/ability professionally. Obviously you can use this in noun form to. Hockey practice is a time/place to work on something to improve, and a Medical practice is a place where medical care is provided by professionals. Not to say that medical professionals aren't continually learning, but it's likely not why they call their profession a practice.

 

[Winger98]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding Barwis' role, but it seems his immediate job is less about him one-on-one with each player and more about him bringing in a larger, more diversified staff and training aids. For all of the talk about college vs experience, my guess is that's why there will be a larger support staff - to have a greater mix of experiences and backgrounds to provide a more well-rounded training environment. But that's just my five second take on what I've seen about Barwis so far.