Post-Game Talk: Red Wings - 14 Penguins - 64

[CanadianPensFan1]

This team is a freaking mess.

I havent watched a full game in almost a month. I watched part of the LA game where they were getting soundly outplayed (in the 10 minutes that I watched). I watched the 2nd period against Detroit yesterday and it was a flipping gong show.

During their recent southern swing, they managed to beat some pretty good teams but I didnt buy it. Im glad I didnt cause the team is right back to the way it was playing late last year/early this year.

Its coaching. Its the system. Its the personnel. Its the sun in their eyes. Its the dog that ate their homework. Whatever the reasons (ie. excuses) are, I honestly dont even care to hear. This team, despite half the roster turnover, is the exact same team as last season and the one before. If they make it out of the 1st round, I'll be shocked. If they make it out of the 2nd round, it'll be a freaking miracle. Anything beyond that, outside of a MASSSSSSIVE shift in play, is one step away from unpossible (and thats not even a word).

Someone mentioned trading Malkin. I dont know if thats the solution but clearly this team needs a massive overhaul from its core. The core is Sid, Geno, Letang, MAF. These are the 4 guys that make up the heart of this team, for better or worse. You want a new direction? Thats where you start.

Someone also mentioned leadership. I definitely think there are different kinds of leaders. I dont think Sid/Toews are the jump up and scream type. It just doesnt seem like something they would do. And thats fine. Not everyone reacts the same. But jesus christ, this team needs a guy like Guerin or Roberts or Messier (Im not talking point totals). That guy who will stand up, get in your face and tell you to stop acting like an idiot. It seems like most of the Pens players just dont even give a toss.

At the end of the day, these last 12 games arent going to change much. I likely wont be watching any of them, but I'll come here and read the post game talk. Many of you have some really good insight. Some not so much. But thats what makes these boards so interesting.

I'll watch again in the playoffs, at least for a game or two.

 

[TheSniper26]

Seriously, this board is absolutely ****ing nuts with the Crosby stuff this year. He was one of only a couple guys that played well yesterday, set up our only goal(and a bunch of other chances that guys whiffed on), and didn't get involved in the team meltdown in any way... and somehow his supposed lack of leadership is still the topic?

By the way, he's also our most productive player this season and the most productive player in the league and his advanced stats, for those that care about that sort of thing, are more than solid. If not for a particularly rough stretch in December he's probably easily walking away with another Art Ross this year. All while likely playing through different injuries and illnesses. But yeah, **** him because he laughed on the bench or something.

 

[metalan2]

This team is a freaking mess.

I havent watched a full game in almost a month. I watched part of the LA game where they were getting soundly outplayed (in the 10 minutes that I watched). I watched the 2nd period against Detroit yesterday and it was a flipping gong show.

During their recent southern swing, they managed to beat some pretty good teams but I didnt buy it. Im glad I didnt cause the team is right back to the way it was playing late last year/early this year.

Its coaching. Its the system. Its the personnel. Its the sun in their eyes. Its the dog that ate their homework. Whatever the reasons (ie. excuses) are, I honestly dont even care to hear. This team, despite half the roster turnover, is the exact same team as last season and the one before. If they make it out of the 1st round, I'll be shocked. If they make it out of the 2nd round, it'll be a freaking miracle. Anything beyond that, outside of a MASSSSSSIVE shift in play, is one step away from unpossible (and thats not even a word).

Someone mentioned trading Malkin. I dont know if thats the solution but clearly this team needs a massive overhaul from its core. The core is Sid, Geno, Letang, MAF. These are the 4 guys that make up the heart of this team, for better or worse. You want a new direction? Thats where you start.

Someone also mentioned leadership. I definitely think there are different kinds of leaders. I dont think Sid/Toews are the jump up and scream type. It just doesnt seem like something they would do. And thats fine. Not everyone reacts the same. But jesus christ, this team needs a guy like Guerin or Roberts or Messier (Im not talking point totals). That guy who will stand up, get in your face and tell you to stop acting like an idiot. It seems like most of the Pens players just dont even give a toss.

At the end of the day, these last 12 games arent going to change much. I likely wont be watching any of them, but I'll come here and read the post game talk. Many of you have some really good insight. Some not so much. But thats what makes these boards so interesting.

I'll watch again in the playoffs, at least for a game or two.

I completely disagree and think they have turned a corner. Dominated Boston yesterday and deserved to win without Crosby or Malkin, dominated Detroit for much of the game yesterday and are clearly a better team than them.

If healthy, I am for once confident in this team going into the playoffs.

 

[Ozz]

Seriously, this board is absolutely ****ing nuts with the Crosby stuff this year. He was one of only a couple guys that played well yesterday, set up our only goal(and a bunch of other chances that guys whiffed on), and didn't get involved in the team meltdown in any way... and somehow his supposed lack of leadership is still the topic?

By the way, he's also our most productive player this season and the most productive player in the league and his advanced stats, for those that care about that sort of thing, are more than solid. If not for a particularly rough stretch in December he's probably easily walking away with another Art Ross this year. All while likely playing through different injuries and illnesses. But yeah, **** him because he laughed on the bench or something.

To many, if you can't magically change a game single-handedly, you're not a leader.

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

Seriously, this board is absolutely ****ing nuts with the Crosby stuff this year. He was one of only a couple guys that played well yesterday, set up our only goal(and a bunch of other chances that guys whiffed on), and didn't get involved in the team meltdown in any way... and somehow his supposed lack of leadership is still the topic?

By the way, he's also our most productive player this season and the most productive player in the league and his advanced stats, for those that care about that sort of thing, are more than solid. If not for a particularly rough stretch in December he's probably easily walking away with another Art Ross this year. All while likely playing through different injuries and illnesses. But yeah, **** him because he laughed on the bench or something.

Crosby is going to rack up points, no matter what. Dont matter who his linemates are, he will rack up points. Sadly, its not all about points.

If you can stand there and say that his level of play; his compete level; his drive ... over most of the season has been acceptable, then hey, have at 'er.

I see it differently. I love me some Sid but jesus christ, there have been more games than not where he just looks ... bored. Not interested.

To each their own

 

[WayneSid9987]

I beg to differ on everything being a total mess.
Yesterday was a total mess.
This team, when healthy, is a capable playoff team.

 

[Penguinator]

I know this thread had a couple of the usual trollish **** heads fueling up the anger but cynism aside, could we actually try as a collective to get back down to earth in a proactive way?

Just saying...

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

I completely disagree and think they have turned a corner. Dominated Boston yesterday and deserved to win without Crosby or Malkin, dominated Detroit for much of the game yesterday and are clearly a better team than them.

If healthy, I am for once confident in this team going into the playoffs.

They didnt and dont deserve ****. They didnt score. They didnt win. Thats the end of it. However, I didnt see the game so I cant comment on how they played. Im just saying .. all this "they deserved better" stuff is nonsense. You win when you score more and give up less. They didnt do that. They lost.

I only watched the 2nd yesterday but I didnt see much domination, imo. I saw a lot of bad plays. A lot of errand passes. A few nice hits (that one by Perron behind the net was awesome). Some crappy power play time. Then some more crappy power play time. And a lot of melting down by Pens players.

Thats not the corner I want to see them turning personally.

EDIT: Also .. how did they play both Boston and Detroit yesterday? I kid, I kid.

 

[blueliner18]

Did they outplay Boston, yes. Did they still lose, yes. Did they outplay Detroit, ah not so sure. They outshot Detroit, but they lost it mentally by the end of the first. This team is about as far from being mentally tough, as the local asylum in-house league team. They have a ton of "dumb tough" and ZERO "smart tough" players. I'm not going to lie, no doubt one of the worst officiated games I ever witnessed yesterday, but instead of wasting all of your energy running your yap at the refs, put the puck in the effing net! I can't tell you how stupid Downie looked yesterday after drawing a penalty in front of the net, to get up and trade about 8-10 cross-checks with Brendan Smith... I mean he really proved how "dumb tough" this team can be. When adversity shows up the Pens always seem to stick a knife in their own back.

 

[CrosbytoKessel]

How BB play?

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

How BB play?

Was he even playing? I honestly didnt even notice. Means he didnt make any big plays, positive or negative. Thats neither good nor bad, just a regular game. Thats not a condemnation either.

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

Did they outplay Boston, yes. Did they still lose, yes. Did they outplay Detroit, ah not so sure. They outshot Detroit, but they lost it mentally by the end of the first. This team is about as far from being mentally tough, as the local asylum in-house league team. They have a ton of "dumb tough" and ZERO "smart tough" players. I'm not going to lie, no doubt one of the worst officiated games I ever witnessed yesterday, but instead of wasting all of your energy running your yap at the refs, put the puck in the effing net! I can't tell you how stupid Downie looked yesterday after drawing a penalty in front of the net, to get up and trade about 8-10 cross-checks with Brendan Smith... I mean he really proved how "dumb tough" this team can be. When adversity shows up the Pens always seem to stick a knife in their own back.

Agreed. The meltdowns they have on the ice are legendary. Its happened a few times this year as well ... once, just recently no?

In any event, this goes back to my comments about the core of the team. When half the roster is turned over and the SAME problems still exist? Hmmmm.

 

[joeyjake5]

So the nbc crew spends 5 minutes fellating the ref and then he comes out and calls a joke of a game.

Go figure.

You are so right and Sutter's penalty was un-called for. The Detroit forward picked him (interference for sure) but when Sutter tripped him they decided to call it on Sutter. Should have been both or neither. But just not Sutter. Again, a case of bad reffing.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

Was he even playing? I honestly didnt even notice. Means he didnt make any big plays, positive or negative. Thats neither good nor bad, just a regular game. Thats not a condemnation either.

He was just okay I feel. Beau is in the same category as Sutter for me in these sitautions: It'd be nice if one of them did something offensively when our offense has some injuries. More so Sutter than Beau, but he's still in that lot. The grinders like Winnik et. al., you just hope collectively they can pop one in. I'd like the guy with a little bit of skill to help out though. I mean do Sutter or Beau ever go within 10 feet of the crease? Serious question.

 

[ColePens]

You are so right and Sutter's penalty was un-called for. The Detroit forward picked him (interference for sure) but when Sutter tripped him they decided to call it on Sutter. Should have been both or neither. But just not Sutter. Again, a case of bad reffing.

No. Retaliation almost always gets called. It's simple. And Sutter was as freaking obvious as it gets on a trip. It's like he said "I'm going to trip him" and BLATANTLY did not care.

That's how hockey goes. It's always gone that way.

 

[blueliner18]

How BB play?

Okay... not great but okay. He was more noticeable than Perron, Winnik, and Adams... but truly that's not saying much. Beau's biggest problem is his body (size). A strong breeze can knock him off the puck, much like Sutter. Although Perron had the only goal yesterday he was invisible for 3/4's of the game. Crosby played well, Cole was a surprise for me... first time I ever watched him live. Getting him for Bortz is a steal, he pinched the zone several times yesterday to keep a play alive, and he was not a liability on defense. Lovejoy was okay, but I do not see where he is going to be an upgrade over Despres on the ice. Maybe in the locker room...? You know a lot of people give Scuderi $h1t in this town, but to watch him and Martin "pickle stab" cross ice saucer passes out of the air while skating backwards full tilt is really something. I'm not sure what people are expecting from Scuderi? He is a shot and pass blocker, period. He's not going to knock somebody on their wallet in front of the net. He's not going to give you more than 10 points a season. However he is a very dependable stay at home defenseman. If anything I think fans would be happy that he is the only defenseman that we have that isn't a "puck mover".

 

[TheSniper26]

Crosby is going to rack up points, no matter what. Dont matter who his linemates are, he will rack up points. Sadly, its not all about points.

If you can stand there and say that his level of play; his compete level; his drive ... over most of the season has been acceptable, then hey, have at 'er.

I see it differently. I love me some Sid but jesus christ, there have been more games than not where he just looks ... bored. Not interested.

To each their own

The bit in bold really highlights how spoiled this fan base can be. We just completely take it for granted that despite some health issues, a new system, a new coach and changing linemates, Crosby, even in a down year, still produces better than anyone else in the league. As though production in this league can just happen accidentally without any effort. When people start using the vaunted "eye test" to criticize unquantifiable things like "drive" and "passion" and "leadership" I'm always pretty skeptical. The eye test is usually pretty tainted by confirmation bias.

 

[XanderCrews34]

I'm definitely disappointed in the results of the weekend, but man, this is as close to good playoff-winning hockey that I've seen the this team play in quite awhile.

They're possessing the puck extremely well. They are limiting shot attempts better than I ever really remember. Honestly my biggest question is if they can get healthy.

If they can be healthy, I really actually like this team. It remains to be seen whether a non-physical D can make a run but if they limit opposition chances and move the puck the heck out of the zone, it could be a really nice formula.

 

[blueliner18]

No. Retaliation almost always gets called. It's simple. And Sutter was as freaking obvious as it gets on a trip. It's like he said "I'm going to trip him" and BLATANTLY did not care.

That's how hockey goes. It's always gone that way.

I agree with you, but something was up with that officiating crew yesterday. One of the worst called games I ever witnessed. They let a bunch of the obvious stuff go and then would make a phantom call on something else. For every action there is an equal reaction, but the officials ignored all of the initial stuff yesterday. Then they called off the Pens first goal (which was no doubt a goal), and that is when the Pens started taking it personal. The #4 official probably needed a Secret Service escort out of the building yesterday.

 

[blueliner18]

For example, Bennett got crushed from behind in the third yesterday in the same corner the official was in, no call. Luckily he bounced back up, but his neck buckled and everything. Then we would get called for lesser infractions in our end. I mean the team has to do a better job of keeping their cool, but when it feels like you are constantly battling 2 teams, it has to get frustrating.

 

[blueliner18]

Another thing if I was Johnston I would have buried the officials in the post game presser. Yeah his team lost composure, but you can't argue reason. Like I said, I was at the game and it was a pure $h1t show. Made some terrible calls both ways, but definitely more against the Pens. Zetterberg's cross-check against Ehrhoff, wasn't a cross-check, he got all air, and Ehrhoff lost an edge. It happened about 5ft away from my face, and the ref making the call was about 10ft away.

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

The bit in bold really highlights how spoiled this fan base can be. We just completely take it for granted that despite some health issues, a new system, a new coach and changing linemates, Crosby, even in a down year, still produces better than anyone else in the league. As though production in this league can just happen accidentally without any effort. When people start using the vaunted "eye test" to criticize unquantifiable things like "drive" and "passion" and "leadership" I'm always pretty skeptical. The eye test is usually pretty tainted by confirmation bias.

Maybe we are spoiled, maybe not. But this has nothing to do with bias at all.

Once again .. I love Sid. I love that he is on the team. But he hasnt played up to his previous level. Plain and simple. Sure, 70% Sid is still better than 95% of the players in the league but thats hardly the point.

In the past, he would drive the net. He would split defenders. He was hard to take the puck off of. Now? He barely drives the net. He barely will split a defender but instead go wide. Its a lot easier to push Sid around and steal the puck from him. He is shooting as much as before but its WHEN he is shooting that is baffling.

Be skeptical all you want. THIS season's Sid is definitely NOT the same Sid we had as recently as two years ago, imo. If you are ok with that, cool. Im not. I would like to see "dominating Sid" instead of "curl the puck to the outside" Sid. Maybe its just me.

 

[blueliner18]

Maybe we are spoiled, maybe not. But this has nothing to do with bias at all.

Once again .. I love Sid. I love that he is on the team. But he hasnt played up to his previous level. Plain and simple. Sure, 70% Sid is still better than 95% of the players in the league but thats hardly the point.

In the past, he would drive the net. He would split defenders. He was hard to take the puck off of. Now? He barely drives the net. He barely will split a defender but instead go wide. Its a lot easier to push Sid around and steal the puck from him. He is shooting as much as before but its WHEN he is shooting that is baffling.

Be skeptical all you want. THIS season's Sid is definitely NOT the same Sid we had as recently as two years ago, imo. If you are ok with that, cool. Im not. I would like to see "dominating Sid" instead of "curl the puck to the outside" Sid. Maybe its just me.

100% correct here. Sid has zero center drive in his game this year. Which subtracts drastically from his production in several ways. When he tries to split the D, he can at least draw a penalty 30% of the time. Other times when he is successful splitting the D it usually produces a very high quality scoring chance. However, the NHL really has to do something to regulate how their games are being called. Seems ALL obstruction has gone out the window, and we are right back to NHL 2000. Perhaps this forces Sid to change his game? Just look around the NHL. Who is the only forward producing goals at his normal pace? Ovie, the guy is 6'3" 233lbs. Now granted he has to fight through the same crap as Crosby, but the bigger frame cetainly helps. Plus Ovie's more of a pure shooter in which most of his "work" is done out in the high slot away from obstructing defenders. Sid's game is all about net drive, below the goal line, and in and around the blue paint. So Sid's office is right in the middle of obstructing defensmen. It's not being called this year, just as it was not called in last years playoffs. Coincidence???

 

[TheSniper26]

Maybe we are spoiled, maybe not. But this has nothing to do with bias at all.

Once again .. I love Sid. I love that he is on the team. But he hasnt played up to his previous level. Plain and simple. Sure, 70% Sid is still better than 95% of the players in the league but thats hardly the point.

In the past, he would drive the net. He would split defenders. He was hard to take the puck off of. Now? He barely drives the net. He barely will split a defender but instead go wide. Its a lot easier to push Sid around and steal the puck from him. He is shooting as much as before but its WHEN he is shooting that is baffling.

Be skeptical all you want. THIS season's Sid is definitely NOT the same Sid we had as recently as two years ago, imo. If you are ok with that, cool. Im not. I would like to see "dominating Sid" instead of "curl the puck to the outside" Sid. Maybe its just me.

As I said in the post you quoted, it's a down year. That's pretty evident. He definitely hasn't played his best this year. But again, Crosby in an off year is still apparently one of the best in the league so is he really a problem?

This team has real, actual problems. A third line center that offers next to nothing aside from shorthanded breakaway prowess, a soft defense that just got softer at the deadline, some dead weight in the top 6 in Kunitz and a guy who's quickly losing his shine in Comeau, undisciplined play, injuries... I mean I could go on and on about the real things plaguing this team. Why get so hung up on our leading scorer who maybe has a few less points than normal? Especially when seemingly every top player(including Geno) has less points than normal this year. Yesterday Crosby was one of like 3 guys on the team actually playing the right way. Let's at least save the criticism for when it's actually warranted.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

How BB play?

You know what, I like BB but it's hard to keep defending him with games like this. I know he isn't always given the best chance but he also doesn't really step it up when the oppertunity comes along