Post-Game Talk: Red Wings - 14 Penguins - 64

[bambamcam4ever]

I know right? It's almost like people are seeing the same thing they've seen this team do every spring for the past half of a decade, and seeing it continue down the same idiotic path to failure.

Chumps.

It's almost like confirmation bias is a powerful thing.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDo]

Well saddle up boys because word is johnston wont be going anywhere after this season regardless of what happens.

great news! Now in the off season jettison Sutter for someone like Anisimov or Soderberg, resign Winnik and Comeau, for the love of god find Geno a stud winger, sign one Vet dman to partner Pouliot, let Lovejoy/Cole/Dumo be the 5-7 (where's Scuds? Who cares, but not on the roster-which is also sans Sutter, Adams, Lappy, Ehrhoff, Martin and because this HFB, Kunitz) and DYNASTY!


DP SC PH
BC EM XXX
DW YYY BB
NS/SD NS/OS SD/OS

OM KL
DP ZZZ
BD IC BL

MAF
TG/JZ/MM

 

[MtlPenFan]

You guys can't be serious about Crosby laughing, right?

I'm 100% sure he just made a sarcastic remark to the ref and was mock laughing about the ridiculous calls. I did that more than a few times times when the refs were being dbags. None of you have ever sat on a bench and made a sarcastic comment to a ref and laughed? Ok...

The things people find to whine about, damn.

Is it really up to the two of us to let people know that the "C" is more for fans, team pictures, and for people to scapegoat when they lose games like today?

People, just stop with the leadership stuff. It's hilarious at this point to blame that for pretty much anything.

 

[Tender Rip]

You don't get it. Despres was supposedly traded because he's inconsistent and makes mistakes. Lovejoy was supposedly the target because he is an experienced guy who doesn't struggle with those things.

He should be judged for the role he was brought to play.

I doubt many here hated the trade more than me, but your final sentence here is just wrong.
Lovejoy should be evaluated for what he is, and perhaps also what he is paid to be. It is not his fault that management lost their marbles, and Lovejoy is not responsible for what they're saying to do damage control in the face of fans being justifiably enraged with a horrible trade.


At the same time, hard and infuriating as it is, we probably just have to let the past be the past on this one.

 

[PensPlz]

Well saddle up boys because word is johnston wont be going anywhere after this season regardless of what happens.

Who's word? #BabcockWatch

 

[canadianguy77]

I do wish Crosby was more of the firey brim and firestone type of Captain, but he isn't. Toews isn't even that kind of guy.

Meh, I don't think that sort of captain even exists anymore. Different generations, I guess.

 

[Night Shift]

Meh, I don't think that sort of captain even exists anymore. Different generations, I guess.

WHat I believe the problem may be that franchise players coming out are handed the C at 18 and IMO that's way too young. I think coming in at that age said player needs to earn it and learn from a veteran captain. Lindros was another example of a player that was handed the C at 18 and it never worked out maybe because he either was just not that type of player or he didn't have the experience to learn from someone else.

 

[Terrapin]

I didn't like the Neal/Horny trade at first, but Horny is hard core. The only downside of him is he's not really big enough to take that kind of pounding. But him and Downie certainly lay it on the line every night. It's a shame they're the only two on the team that do.

Anyway, this organization sucks. Detroit is the softest team in the league, and they completely punked us. Guess what that makes us? I still cannot wrap my head around why anyone in their right mind would think being soft as butter is a winning formula in a physical sport. I can't imagine any other organization, in any other sport saying 'we have too many big, physical, aggressive players. We need to replace them with small, weak, timid guys.'

Again, Detroit is a soft team, but look at what their D did to Horny around the net, and then compare that to our D. It's laughable.

 

[systemsgo]

Man, Crosby's laugh looks manic and it was pretty funny when that happened. Some people have these narratives against/for certain players and try to use anything to justify that.

I do wish Crosby was more of the firey brim and firestone type of Captain, but he isn't. Toews isn't even that kind of guy.

Meh, by reports, Toews and Crosby are very similar captains, quiet leadership type of guys.

 

[Michael8771*]

Now, one goal or less in five of our last seven. Honestly, my expectations of this team are very low. I actually enjoyed some of the 2003-04 season more than this one. At least with us being so atrociously abysmal, we were in line to get a great player. With that team we knew what to expect, with this one anything both good or bad is possible. And that uncertainty is very hard to deal with. At least to me. Which is why I expect an early exit this post season.

Unfortunately the structure and good sound systematic hockey nowadays can trump even the greatest players. It's honestly not a fun product to watch anymore. I've been a die hard pens fan for 35 years. But these games are increasingly hard to watch.

 

[IcedCapp]

At the same time, hard and infuriating as it is, we probably just have to let the past be the past on this one.

No. Most of us pay money in some way or another to enjoy the Penguins, I'm tired of them being a **** organization (in my opinion). There are two things I can do: let it go and just not give a **** about the Penguins anymore (which I might do/would be easier if my two kids weren't already huge fans) or let them know that this kind of **** isn't acceptable.

I don't mean trading Despres isn't acceptable, but you get what I mean, I think.

 

[blueliner18]

Quite possibly the worst officiated game that I have witnessed since pre-lockout 05'. Somebody should have told the "Stripes" that they get their name on the scoresheet no matter what! Seriously that crew has been terrible all season long and I'm not just talking about Penguin games. The #4 official needs to go back to his day job at Tim Horton's icing up some cake rings. He would probably screw up calling an amateur Tier I mite game. Not saying it was the only problem the Pens had yesterday, but it certainly didn't help. They made bad calls for both teams, but it just so happens the majority were against the Pens. They did make one against the Wings, Zetterberg did not cross-check Ehrhoff in the second period, Ehrhoff caught an edge went down, happened right in front of me. Terrible.

 

[drpepper]

Alcohol solves everything.

I get drunk and tell my gf to stroke my bald head to tell me everything is going to be alright.

I might require therapy, I blame this team.

I do wish Crosby was more of the firey brim and firestone type of Captain, but he isn't. Toews isn't even that kind of guy.

Please name one "firey brim and firestone" type Captain. The closest may be someone like Ovechkin.

Then please show me how/why a "firey brim and firestone" type is more successful as a captain.

Or if it's personal preference than that's cool. I prefer a professional, lead by example type captain than the spiritual leader, motivation yelling leader.

On a related note, the narrative that Crosby is a bad captain is stupid. As fans, we have absolutely no idea what Crosby's leadership is like or how the team responds to it.

I will say that Crosby seemed more pissed about the penalties and willing to address it than the coach who didn't seem to realize that the Pens lead the league in misconducts, PIM, PIM/G, unsportsmanlike conduct penalties, and is second in minor penalties and thinks that Letang and Kunitz losing their cool is uncharacteristic. Based on his comments, I would be surprised if Johnston is advocating for Downie to be re-signed.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Please name one "firey brim and firestone" type Captain. The closest may be someone like Ovechkin.

Then please show me how/why a "firey brim and firestone" type is more successful as a captain.

on a related note, the narrative that Crosby is a bad captain is stupid. As fans, we have absolutely no idea what Crosby's leadership is like or how the team responds to it.

I will say that Crosby seemed more pissed about the penalties and willing to address it than the coach who didn't seem to realize that the Pens lead the league in misconducts, PIM, PIM/G, unsportsmanlike conduct penalties, and is second in minor penalties and thinks that Letang and Kunitz losing their cool is uncharacteristic.

I think MJ took DK's question as "your team has been losing it's cool all year and it culminated in this game today". Which would be false.
He obviously knows Downie can be a question mark and is the main, and lately, the lone culprit of losing his cool until yesterday.

 

[drpepper]

I think MJ took DK's question as "your team has been losing it's cool all year and it culminated in this game today". Which would be false.
He obviously knows Downie can be a question mark and is the main, and lately, the lone culprit of losing his cool.

Downie is not the only problem, and Johnston thinking that Downie is the only problem or even the main problem is troubling.

Even without Downie, the team would have 9 misconducts which would still be second in the league. The Pens are probably the only team where a large portion of their misconducts are from mixing it up with the refs.

Also Kunitz, Letang, Malkin, and Crosby are notorious for flaring tempers. See Letang at Vancouver for an example this year of someone other than Downie losing it. Malkin and Crosby have both had a game like that at least. Perron and Kunitz are terrible with retaliatory penalties; even Fleury has been known to pick them up.

Plus the worst penalties of the night were Sutter, Kunitz, and Letang not Downie.

 

[blueliner18]

Downie needs to find a way to channel his anger other than trading 25 cross-checks back and forth with Brendan Smith, in front of the Wings net, after Smith took the initial penalty. He is an asset to this team when he chips in a goal playing on the 4th line, but very much a liability when he starts playing caveman rules. Love the intensity, but the guy has to get a grip.

 

[Tender Rip]

No. Most of us pay money in some way or another to enjoy the Penguins, I'm tired of them being a **** organization (in my opinion). There are two things I can do: let it go and just not give a **** about the Penguins anymore (which I might do/would be easier if my two kids weren't already huge fans) or let them know that this kind of **** isn't acceptable.

I don't mean trading Despres isn't acceptable, but you get what I mean, I think.

I completely get it.
In previous cases (four/five times at the height of my Bylsma hatred) I emailed two beat/semi beat writers. One from the Gazette and one from the Trip. The former writer just doesn't operate like that (fair enough) and while a decent enough craftsman has simply been going through the motions on the job for years. No real criticism will come from there; at most a sarcastic tid-bit every now and then (like the one about Despres being traded, which "half Pens nation hate and the other half like even less" - that's as pointed as he gets).
The other however took it as part of his job description to be hitting out at times, and therefore could be slightly influenced; mostly after the fact and then mostly in an idiosyncratic way to push arguments of tertiary import, that he had himself made in the past. But still.

Either way, my point was more that unless you get criticism into circulation where it might matter, being hung up on the epic debacle that trade was/will turn out.... on HF.... doesn't mean much. Because us fans here are too into it. For the org it doesn't matter any more than the FED is worried about bloggers going on about physical gold and silver.
For my own sanity also, I would prefer if we could keep *****ing about the Despres trade in one or two threads and keep the others relatively free of it. I mean, I get it. I really, really do. But still, makes me despressed reading about it all the time.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Downie is not the only problem, and Johnston thinking that Downie is the only problem or even the main problem is troubling.

Even without Downie, the team would have 9 misconducts which would still be second in the league. The Pens are probably the only team where a large portion of their misconducts are from mixing it up with the refs.

Also Kunitz, Letang, Malkin, and Crosby are notorious for flaring tempers. See Letang at Vancouver for an example this year of someone other than Downie losing it. Malkin and Crosby have both had a game like that at least. Perron and Kunitz are terrible with retaliatory penalties; even Fleury has been known to pick them up.

Plus the worst penalties of the night were Sutter, Kunitz, and Letang not Downie.

Some of this may be true but they were trending towards sticking to playing hockey up until they ran into a hot head ref yesterday who just started T'ing everyone up.

From the Philly game where Rinaldo took out Letang to the last Caps game to some of the chippiness out west. They kept their heads.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

I think what Tender Rip is trying to say is that we need to bombard Mackey with emails.

 

[StutzlesTapeJob]

I think the leadership questions are valid. While the C on a chest may be more symbolic than strict with a locker room, there is no doubt that teams turn to leaders in games to set tones and examples. It's the old "someone needs to step up".

This game, team, season, aren't all on Crosby. But to me, both from a players perspective and from the eye test as an educated fan, this team lacks team character. The easiest place to point the finger is leadership 1) because you dont see our best players outside of Geno stepping up as noticeably in big games. 2) Outside of seeing the level of play elevated, the results in these games just haven't been there.

I remember when we used to have heated games against the flyers and caps, you could count on Sid to skate through walls to win. He spoke, looked, played so determined. And more so, the result would be 2G, 2A. We just don't see that as much any more. Specifically not against the better teams, adding fuel to the frustration fire.

To answer some of the questions you see about who these "firestone" leaders are: I will name players. Not just captains, because leading is more than a letter. Further, not all these players are necessarily better leaders all the time. Some are. Some just fit the bill of what the pens seem to be missing.

Chara, Callahan, Backes, PKSubs, Suter, Brown, Buff

All guys who really can lead the charge into battle when the going gets tough. And even thrive under adversity. The pens by contrast lose their way when the going gets tough.

To wrap all this up. I still blame the old regime primarily. The team is built the wrong way. We don't have a well rounded collection of contributors. We have a team which is GREAT at winning a very particular style of game, and very below avg at winning games outside that comfort zone. Unfortunately the style we are good at is not playoff hockey, and no longer the way the game is officiated. Our conference has built teams to address "beating the penguins" (among other things - this used to be more important IMO).

Hopefully Geno comes back. The players figure this out. And we head into the playoffs with a prayer, then address the needs further in the offseason.

 

[cassius]

Pittsburgh's remaining schedule:

Stars (32-28-10) OUT OF THE PLAYOFFS
Coyotes (21-40-8) OUT OF THE PLAYOFFS
Blues (44-20-5)
Hurricanes (26-34-8) OUT OF THE PLAYOFFS
Coyotes (21-40-8) OUT OF THE PLAYOFFS
Sharks (34-27-8) OUT OF THE PLAYOFFS
Flyers (29-27-15) OUT OF THE PLAYOFFS
Blue Jackets (30-35-4) OUT OF THE PLAYOFFS
Flyers (29-27-15) OUT OF THE PLAYOFFS
Senators (33-24-11) OUT OF THE PLAYOFFS
Islanders (43-24-4)
Sabres (19-43-6) OUT OF THE PLAYOFFS

TWO of the remaining TWELVE games are against teams currently in the playoffs. As you can see by the records some are not bad per se, but honestly it must be the most cake schedule remaining of any playoff bound team.

Get ready for the grand illusion as the Pens win at least 7 of those 12 and maybe as high as 9 or 10. Then suddenly some may believe beating up on 12 year old girls makes us tough again. Rational minds will know that this weekend may not have been the real Pens either, but it certainly will not be the team that kicks sand in the faces of a bunch of ten year olds and beats their chest like they are great.

Oh man.. lol.

This is the NHL scheduling equivalent of being a senior in HS who is already admitted into a prestigious university. I expect a LOT of slacking ahead followed by an "oh **** now we actually have to play hard" moment once the playoffs begin.

 

[Coastal Kev]

No. Most of us pay money in some way or another to enjoy the Penguins, I'm tired of them being a **** organization (in my opinion). There are two things I can do: let it go and just not give a **** about the Penguins anymore (which I might do/would be easier if my two kids weren't already huge fans) or let them know that this kind of **** isn't acceptable.

I don't mean trading Despres isn't acceptable, but you get what I mean, I think.

I have emotionally checked out on the Pens, the Despres trade was simply the final nail for me. Throw in the fact that I can't stand the way the sport is being played I truly don't care what happens with the Pens moving forward. For me, this is the least likable Pens team that I have ever watched. That's what made the Despres trade so tough, he was one of the few players that gave me hope for a better day. The fact that the Pens saw him as expendable for another PMD, well that's just comical.

Not saying I won't ever be back because there is always hope that the NHL and the Pens will both make drastic changes. But as soon as the Pens are soundly thumped come April, I'm checking out. I am only riding it out because I made a financial investment for 10th straight year with hockey package.

 

[Tender Rip]

I think the leadership questions are valid. While the C on a chest may be more symbolic than strict with a locker room, there is no doubt that teams turn to leaders in games to set tones and examples. It's the old "someone needs to step up".

This game, team, season, aren't all on Crosby. But to me, both from a players perspective and from the eye test as an educated fan, this team lacks team character. The easiest place to point the finger is leadership 1) because you dont see our best players outside of Geno stepping up as noticeably in big games. 2) Outside of seeing the level of play elevated, the results in these games just haven't been there.

I remember when we used to have heated games against the flyers and caps, you could count on Sid to skate through walls to win. He spoke, looked, played so determined. And more so, the result would be 2G, 2A. We just don't see that as much any more. Specifically not against the better teams, adding fuel to the frustration fire.

To answer some of the questions you see about who these "firestone" leaders are: I will name players. Not just captains, because leading is more than a letter. Further, not all these players are necessarily better leaders all the time. Some are. Some just fit the bill of what the pens seem to be missing.

Chara, Callahan, Backes, PKSubs, Suter, Brown, Buff

All guys who really can lead the charge into battle when the going gets tough. And even thrive under adversity. The pens by contrast lose their way when the going gets tough.

To wrap all this up. I still blame the old regime primarily. The team is built the wrong way. We don't have a well rounded collection of contributors. We have a team which is GREAT at winning a very particular style of game, and very below avg at winning games outside that comfort zone. Unfortunately the style we are good at is not playoff hockey, and no longer the way the game is officiated. Our conference has built teams to address "beating the penguins" (among other things - this used to be more important IMO).

Hopefully Geno comes back. The players figure this out. And we head into the playoffs with a prayer, then address the needs further in the offseason.

I am not questioning Sid's leadership on the ice per se. I think a big part of this teams problems in latter years has been his stubbornness however.

I think he has significant say in his line mates and in his usage. To some extent it is about the rest of the chips falling as they may, and IMO, the whole Kunitz, Dupuis and right wall on the PP thing is about catering to Sid. Which would be one thing if it made him perform great when it matters, but when it doesn't mean that, and also seriously hurts that other guy who is often as good or better than our C, then it becomes really, really damaging.

That is also to say that it is illogical to me to think that any genuine hockey person (including here also Bylsma) could look at those factors and decide that Dupuis MUST play with Sid, or that our most lethal PP weapon since prime Jagr should be moved out of his best element because Sid had focused on shooting the puck during that off-season.

But OK, some times we will also make a trade that will cause me to question whether them peeps making decisions don't watch our games at all, or if I just don't get the game like I thought I did.

 

[drpepper]

I think the leadership questions are valid. While the C on a chest may be more symbolic than strict with a locker room, there is no doubt that teams turn to leaders in games to set tones and examples. It's the old "someone needs to step up".

This game, team, season, aren't all on Crosby. But to me, both from a players perspective and from the eye test as an educated fan, this team lacks team character. The easiest place to point the finger is leadership 1) because you dont see our best players outside of Geno stepping up as noticeably in big games. 2) Outside of seeing the level of play elevated, the results in these games just haven't been there.

I remember when we used to have heated games against the flyers and caps, you could count on Sid to skate through walls to win. He spoke, looked, played so determined. And more so, the result would be 2G, 2A. We just don't see that as much any more. Specifically not against the better teams, adding fuel to the frustration fire.

To answer some of the questions you see about who these "firestone" leaders are: I will name players. Not just captains, because leading is more than a letter. Further, not all these players are necessarily better leaders all the time. Some are. Some just fit the bill of what the pens seem to be missing.

Chara, Callahan, Backes, PKSubs, Suter, Brown, Buff

All guys who really can lead the charge into battle when the going gets tough. And even thrive under adversity. The pens by contrast lose their way when the going gets tough.

To wrap all this up. I still blame the old regime primarily. The team is built the wrong way. We don't have a well rounded collection of contributors. We have a team which is GREAT at winning a very particular style of game, and very below avg at winning games outside that comfort zone. Unfortunately the style we are good at is not playoff hockey, and no longer the way the game is officiated. Our conference has built teams to address "beating the penguins" (among other things - this used to be more important IMO).

Hopefully Geno comes back. The players figure this out. And we head into the playoffs with a prayer, then address the needs further in the offseason.

I never said the C on the chest was symbolic.

I don't find any of the current criticisms of Crosby's leadership valid. Every single player for the Pens has praised Crosby for setting an example, elevating his game, and being a professional.

I have no idea what you mean by "lacking character." Personally I'd rather have a rational explanation backed by evidence rather than an eye test and the easiest thing to point to.

Leadership and an individual elevating his game are some of the more overused and overrated traits when it comes to winning. You know what leads to winning: team structure and systems, proper player usage and deployment, getting lucky, individual hockey skill, and appropriate coaching adjustments. Depending on player leadership and single individual efforts to win games is stupid, and losing has even less to do with them. (Individuals especially goalies can win games but depending on it is not a smart way to play)

I don't agree that only Malkin is stepping up his game or is the only one ever to do it, and to be honest I find most posters on this board overrate Malkin based on how he looks when he plays rather than his results. He may "look" dominant, but he isn't more effective.

Also, not related to Malkin or Crosby, what's more important a player playing consistently good hockey or a player that plays average hockey who elevates his game but is still below the guy playing consistently good hockey? One player doesn't change, but he's the better player. It's like a player that is a PPG in the regular season and in the playoffs versus a player who is a sub-PPG in the regular season and a PPG player in the playoffs. The guy who elevates his game in the playoffs isn't a better or more effective player than the consistent guy.

Of the players that you just mentioned, Callahan and PKSubs are the only ones that I find remotely close to "firey brim and firestone."

Chara, Backes, Brown, and Suter are much closer to Crosby and Toews work ethic, lead by example, quiet leadership types than they are to "firestone".

I don't find Buff to be a good leader at all as exemplified by the E Kane issues. He is close to the bottom of the list of types of leaders that I would want to see on the Pens.

There is not a single team in the league that is built the same way, plays the same way or achieves success in the same way. It is completely misleading to suggest that the Pens have to be built a certain way to have success. And you'll have to let me know what style the Pens are currently playing and are good at.

 

[blueliner18]

Even the Jets know that Buff isn't a good captain, because well... he's not their captain. Andrew Ladd is the Jets "C".