Post-Game Talk: Red Wings - 14 Penguins - 64

[blueliner18]

My point, this team is not built for "clutch and grab" hockey. This team is purely built on speed and skill. Teams that play heavy and obstruct whether it is in the neutral zone or in the Dzone (i.e. Islanders, Caps, NYR) all are going to have an advantage over the Pens. Speed can be a major factor, but if you have a 220lb gorilla "water skiing" on you through the neutral zone, how fast can you go?

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

This team is a freaking mess.

I havent watched a full game in almost a month. I watched part of the LA game where they were getting soundly outplayed (in the 10 minutes that I watched). I watched the 2nd period against Detroit yesterday and it was a flipping gong show.

During their recent southern swing, they managed to beat some pretty good teams but I didnt buy it. Im glad I didnt cause the team is right back to the way it was playing late last year/early this year.

Its coaching. Its the system. Its the personnel. Its the sun in their eyes. Its the dog that ate their homework. Whatever the reasons (ie. excuses) are, I honestly dont even care to hear. This team, despite half the roster turnover, is the exact same team as last season and the one before. If they make it out of the 1st round, I'll be shocked. If they make it out of the 2nd round, it'll be a freaking miracle. Anything beyond that, outside of a MASSSSSSIVE shift in play, is one step away from unpossible (and thats not even a word).

Someone mentioned trading Malkin. I dont know if thats the solution but clearly this team needs a massive overhaul from its core. The core is Sid, Geno, Letang, MAF. These are the 4 guys that make up the heart of this team, for better or worse. You want a new direction? Thats where you start.

Someone also mentioned leadership. I definitely think there are different kinds of leaders. I dont think Sid/Toews are the jump up and scream type. It just doesnt seem like something they would do. And thats fine. Not everyone reacts the same. But jesus christ, this team needs a guy like Guerin or Roberts or Messier (Im not talking point totals). That guy who will stand up, get in your face and tell you to stop acting like an idiot. It seems like most of the Pens players just dont even give a toss.

At the end of the day, these last 12 games arent going to change much. I likely wont be watching any of them, but I'll come here and read the post game talk. Many of you have some really good insight. Some not so much. But thats what makes these boards so interesting.

I'll watch again in the playoffs, at least for a game or two.

As I said in the post you quoted, it's a down year. That's pretty evident. He definitely hasn't played his best this year. But again, Crosby in an off year is still apparently one of the best in the league so is he really a problem?

This team has real, actual problems. A third line center that offers next to nothing aside from shorthanded breakaway prowess, a soft defense that just got softer at the deadline, some dead weight in the top 6 in Kunitz and a guy who's quickly losing his shine in Comeau, undisciplined play, injuries... I mean I could go on and on about the real things plaguing this team. Why get so hung up on our leading scorer who maybe has a few less points than normal? Especially when seemingly every top player(including Geno) has less points than normal this year. Yesterday Crosby was one of like 3 guys on the team actually playing the right way. Let's at least save the criticism for when it's actually warranted.

To be fair, I never brought up Sid specifically (other than the leadership thing .. and I wasnt insulting or complimentary). My original post is above.

Is he current level of play a concern for me? Absolutely. Is it the only problem on this team? Christ, no. Is it even close to the top of the list? No. But, its still an issue.

The list of things wrong with this team is a hell of a lot longer than the list of things going right with this team.

EDIT: "The list is long and distinguished." "Yeah, so is my johnson."

 

[Tender Rip]

The bit in bold really highlights how spoiled this fan base can be.

Big expectations?
Lets say you have a team where the four go to players are two centers, a defender and a goalie. The two centers are first and second in the league on ppg, the defenseman leads all such in ppg and us having his best ever season also from a defensive perspective (at least minus the first month of the season). The goalie? He us having his best ever season statistically.

Add to this, the team spends to the cap and used plenty of futures this season to further top up.

That's the Pens. If we should not have great expectations, who should?
When we consistently don't deliver when needed, it is only natural that people try to look beyond the numbers. No easy truths, but clearly there's more to winning than points per game for individuals.

 

[Coastal Kev]

My point, this team is not built for "clutch and grab" hockey. This team is purely built on speed and skill. Teams that play heavy and obstruct whether it is in the neutral zone or in the Dzone (i.e. Islanders, Caps, NYR) all are going to have an advantage over the Pens. Speed can be a major factor, but if you have a 220lb gorilla "water skiing" on you through the neutral zone, how fast can you go?

I think you're right that this team is poorly built for the new style of hockey, but I also don't like the makeup of the team no matter what era you put them in.

They are overly skilled and they aren't overly fast. They have top end talent, but the rest of squad are all somewhat undersized, average skilled and very light on youthful enthusiasm.

 

[billybudd]

Is it really up to the two of us to let people know that the "C" is more for fans, team pictures, and for people to scapegoat when they lose games like today?

People, just stop with the leadership stuff. It's hilarious at this point to blame that for pretty much anything.

Eh. Teams often take on the characteristics of the leadership group. If the Bruins traded Lucic for Simmonds--and that's the only trade they made--they might start winning a few games here and there against the Habs.

 

[drpepper]

Maybe we are spoiled, maybe not. But this has nothing to do with bias at all.

Once again .. I love Sid. I love that he is on the team. But he hasnt played up to his previous level. Plain and simple. Sure, 70% Sid is still better than 95% of the players in the league but thats hardly the point.

In the past, he would drive the net. He would split defenders. He was hard to take the puck off of. Now? He barely drives the net. He barely will split a defender but instead go wide. Its a lot easier to push Sid around and steal the puck from him. He is shooting as much as before but its WHEN he is shooting that is baffling.

Be skeptical all you want. THIS season's Sid is definitely NOT the same Sid we had as recently as two years ago, imo. If you are ok with that, cool. Im not. I would like to see "dominating Sid" instead of "curl the puck to the outside" Sid. Maybe its just me.

Your statements here aren't facts. They are your opinions formed by watching games and remembering other seasons. Unfortunately, watching the games, remembering old games, and forming these opinions are all subject to biases, and the human mind does very poorly at evaluating, remembering, and forming opinions without bias. You are literally seeing what you want to see with Crosby.

I see a Crosby who has struggled with production but overall has only had a handful (and by that I mean 3-5) of bad games. Otherwise, he's been playing well even if he's not producing points consistently.

Facts for this season are that Crosby isn't scoring as consistently or as much as he normally does.

In evaluating why Crosby isn't scoring as consistently or as much, "leadership," "passion," "work ethic," "drive," "compete level, being "bored" and even your judgments of not going to the net or splitting the defense have poor explanatory power for his statistics. Better hypotheses include:

• injuries to himself and the team - this is supported by the fact that his worst production was in the month of December when he was recovering from the mumps and the rest of the team had a number of injuries.
• consistency in linemates (and defensemen) - this is partially related to the injury aspect, but also to Johnston making adjustments as he attempts to find the best combinations. The end result should be better, but I don't think it's a surprise that Crosby who relies on consistency and being able to predict his linemates might struggle.
• a new system and coach - Johnston's system continues to have kinks that need to be worked through. Of particular importance for Crosby's game, the breakout has yet to solidify itself into a solid system.

The difference is that injuries can be measured and tracked, consistency of linemates and which linemates Crosby has produced with can be tracked, zone entries and exits can be tracked. I can look at other numbers outside of points.

You cannot interrogate "drive" or being "bored" that way.

 

[CrosbytoKessel]

I'm probably BB's biggest fan, but he hasn't been doing anything lately. makes me sad

 

[plaidchuck]

I'm probably BB's biggest fan, but he hasn't been doing anything lately. makes me sad

BB is just another third liner now. Another failed first round pick.

 

[djt153]

BB is just another third liner now. Another failed first round pick.

i mean i get the hang-wringing over beau, but it's not like he was a top 5 pick. late first rounders are lottery tickets, just the way things work.

 

[plaidchuck]

i mean i get the hang-wringing over beau, but it's not like he was a top 5 pick. late first rounders are lottery tickets, just the way things work.

Like Brandon Sutter?

 

[plaidchuck]

My biggest problem with games like yesterday is joe yinzer will see that and say "they just lost their composure, they can beat anybody"

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

Your statements here aren't facts. They are your opinions formed by watching games and remembering other seasons. Unfortunately, watching the games, remembering old games, and forming these opinions are all subject to biases, and the human mind does very poorly at evaluating, remembering, and forming opinions without bias. You are literally seeing what you want to see with Crosby.

I see a Crosby who has struggled with production but overall has only had a handful (and by that I mean 3-5) of bad games. Otherwise, he's been playing well even if he's not producing points consistently.

Facts for this season are that Crosby isn't scoring as consistently or as much as he normally does.

In evaluating why Crosby isn't scoring as consistently or as much, "leadership," "passion," "work ethic," "drive," "compete level, being "bored" and even your judgments of not going to the net or splitting the defense have poor explanatory power for his statistics. Better hypotheses include:

• injuries to himself and the team - this is supported by the fact that his worst production was in the month of December when he was recovering from the mumps and the rest of the team had a number of injuries.
• consistency in linemates (and defensemen) - this is partially related to the injury aspect, but also to Johnston making adjustments as he attempts to find the best combinations. The end result should be better, but I don't think it's a surprise that Crosby who relies on consistency and being able to predict his linemates might struggle.
• a new system and coach - Johnston's system continues to have kinks that need to be worked through. Of particular importance for Crosby's game, the breakout has yet to solidify itself into a solid system.

The difference is that injuries can be measured and tracked, consistency of linemates and which linemates Crosby has produced with can be tracked, zone entries and exits can be tracked. I can look at other numbers outside of points.

You cannot interrogate "drive" or being "bored" that way.

*reading back over my posts* I dont see anywhere that I said they were facts. In FACT, I have written "imo" a couple of times. So well done!

What you see and what I see are obviously very different and that's cool. My judgements are mine and mine alone. If you choose to agree or disagree, also cool. It doesn't matter either way to me or to the team.

 

[Hugh Mongusbig]

Somebody explain to me what Downie is supposed to do about that second misconduct. He gets speared in the balls and gets 10 minutes for shoving the guy who did it?

Well that is certainly one way to look at it. The way I saw it was that Downie dropped the gloves trying to goad Smith into a fight. In doing so, Downie somehow got the Detroit player's stick between his legs and was holding on to it so that the Detroit player wouldn't/couldn't just skate away. The Detroit player (Smith) didn't spear him as you say, instead he yanked his stick out from between Downie's legs. That is when Downie shoved him, and the Detroit player shoved him back. The Detroit player had no reason to fight Downie and wasn't going to. Downie then pushed the Detroit player once again and that is when the Refs determined he was out there simply trying to stir up trouble rather than play hockey.

 

[Asuna]

Well that is certainly one way to look at it. The way I saw it was that Downie dropped the gloves trying to goad Smith into a fight. In doing so, Downie somehow got the Detroit player's stick between his legs and was holding on to it so that the Detroit player wouldn't/couldn't just skate away. The Detroit player (Smith) didn't spear him as you say, instead he yanked his stick out from between Downie's legs. That is when Downie shoved him, and the Detroit player shoved him back. The Detroit player had no reason to fight Downie and wasn't going to. Downie then pushed the Detroit player once again and that is when the Refs determined he was out there simply trying to stir up trouble rather than play hockey.

Yes...he "somehow" got the stick between his legs and held on

 

[billybudd]

Well that is certainly one way to look at it. The way I saw it was that Downie dropped the gloves trying to goad Smith into a fight. In doing so, Downie somehow got the Detroit player's stick between his legs and was holding on to it so that the Detroit player wouldn't/couldn't just skate away. The Detroit player (Smith) didn't spear him as you say, instead he yanked his stick out from between Downie's legs. That is when Downie shoved him, and the Detroit player shoved him back. The Detroit player had no reason to fight Downie and wasn't going to. Downie then pushed the Detroit player once again and that is when the Refs determined he was out there simply trying to stir up trouble rather than play hockey.

This reads like the same sort of tortured logic trying to explain why between Jamie Benn's balls is the proper place for Zetterberg's stick to be after a faceoff, so I'm guessing you're a Wings fan.

 

[MtlPenFan]

I was one of the happiest guys in the world when Benn punched Zetterberg's head into oblivion. It was fantastic.

 

[billybudd]

I was one of the happiest guys in the world when Benn punched Zetterberg's head into oblivion. It was fantastic.

I love Zetterberg. Most-underrated player of his generation. If he was five years younger, I'd trade Letang for him without even thinking about it. If I had Claude Giroux, I'd trade him for Z too.

But any of the stuff that happens to him, he's usually asking for it. When Weber smashed his head, Zetterberg had just checked him from behind (Weber hit his face on the glass) with like 5 seconds left in a decided game. I'd have fined Zetterberg for that and given Weber nothing.

 

[MtlPenFan]

I love Zetterberg. Most-underrated player of his generation. If he was five years younger, I'd trade Letang for him without even thinking about it. If I had Claude Giroux, I'd trade him for Z too.

But any of the stuff that happens to him, he's usually asking for it. When Weber smashed his head, Zetterberg had just checked him from behind (Weber hit his face on the glass) with like 5 seconds left in a decided game. I'd have fined Zetterberg for that and given Weber nothing.

He's like Plekanec in that way. Really, really sneaky and underhanded with that whole "Who me? I'm a soft Euro skill guy I wouldn't dare!" hands in the air type stuff. I remember during the '09 Final, Zetterberg took a draw against Crosby, and he basically gave Sid a right hook in the face using the butt end of his stick and the Wings scored right off it.

You're absolutely right about the Weber incident, I remember it pretty well. As for Benn, I mean he kept doing it over again and he got exactly what he asked for. Franzen is also a giant piece of **** as well, so I kinda get a kick out of him being on IR all the time.

I think back on that '09 Cup run, and in the end it was simply perfect the way it all went down.

 

[djt153]

Like Brandon Sutter?

brandon sutter was a picked considerably higher than bennett, not sure your point.

 

[Your Boy Troy]

He's like Plekanec in that way. Really, really sneaky and underhanded with that whole "Who me? I'm a soft Euro skill guy I wouldn't dare!" hands in the air type stuff. I remember during the '09 Final, Zetterberg took a draw against Crosby, and he basically gave Sid a right hook in the face using the butt end of his stick and the Wings scored right off it.

You're absolutely right about the Weber incident, I remember it pretty well. As for Benn, I mean he kept doing it over again and he got exactly what he asked for. Franzen is also a giant piece of **** as well, so I kinda get a kick out of him being on IR all the time.

I think back on that '09 Cup run, and in the end it was simply perfect the way it all went down.

Almost the entire Red Wings roster I dislike. However, I've always liked Brendan Smith and Luke Glendening.

Johan Franzen and Niklas Kronwall are two of my least favorite players in the league. Then you have the Michigan State ******* alumnus in Abdelkader and Miller. Kyle Quincey thinks he tough. We're aware of what Datsyuk and Zetterberg get away with. Not crazy about Tatar.

They were a lot worse when they had Tomas Holmstrom, Kirk Maltby, and Chris Osgood.

 

[plaidchuck]

Lol Kronwall, never seen a hit by him that wasn't charging. Hilarious what that Detroit team got away with.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

I watched MJ's postgame. Once again, I am left wondering if he knows what he is talking about.

I mean, what kind of coach doesn't know that his team takes a lot of penalties, not to mention leads the league. We've been told that we're going to be using advanced stats but they can't even grasp basic ones?

Also, calling out Downie again? MJ said his physical penalties are good but his obstruction penalties are bad? Does he even watch the games? Perhaps he has confused Downie's number with someone else. The ref obviously lost his mind yesterday handing out misconducts and MJ takes from it that it's ok for Letang and Kunitz but not for Downie?

 

[Til the End of Time]

does anyone know how the most penalized team in the regular season has fared in the playoffs for the past few years?

dont have time to check now, but can try to check later.

 

[plaidchuck]

Also, never saw a more entitled team either and how they acted like babies after losing.

I respect babcock but he can **** off too with his free gold medals he gets every four years for opening and closing the bench door.

 

[Black Label]

BB is just another third liner now. Another failed first round pick.

What do you expect him to do? He's doing what the coaches want. If he tries to show any creativity at all he is going to be benched.