Post-Game Talk: Rangers @ Sabres -- 4/1/21

[aufheben]

23 is not 19.

Go on.

 

[aufheben]

I know advanced stats say faceoffs “don’t matter” but the game doesn’t go to overtime if the Rangers have a reliable faceoff man.

People don’t mean they literally don’t matter, they mean at the NHL level most centers are more/less good at them.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

So what. Nobody is complaining about the win or even chasing the playoffs. The criticism is about the greater context, not wins against scrub teams.

The greater context is we have 10/14 points in the last 7 games.

 

[egelband]

Can’t blame him

Goals in back to back games and he just barely cleared double digit minutes

I’m quite happy to criticize this particular issue. Chytil’s line should be playing more. But the Fire Quinn hysteria is head scratching. I feel like there’s a full moon or something. Is Long Weekend Fever, a thing?

 

[aufheben]

I’m quite happy to criticize this particular issue. Chytil’s line should be playing more. But the Fire Quinn hysteria is head scratching. I feel like there’s a full moon or something. Is Long Weekend Fever, a thing?

Close. First Overall Fever.

 

[pblawr]

I think there are a couple angles to the playing time issue:

One is that:
- Getting the team to play within a system that makes them greater than the sum of their of their parts is a really important part of coaching. Barry Trotz and the Islanders are a perfect example of how impactful that can be. Defensive responsibility is an important part of that.
- Giving out playing time based on how well players execute their defensive responsibilities is a perfectly reasonable way to get players to care about and focus on their defensive responsibilities.
- Our worst 3 forwards in corsi against per time played tonight were Gauthier, Chytil, and Lafreniere (they were a combined 65 CA per 60, the 4th line and the Strome-Kakko-Panarin line were around 20 CA per 60, and KZB was around 40).

I also think there is more to developing players than just giving them a lot of ice time. For example, giving them more playing time when they do the right things and less when they don't could be something that is better for their development than just getting a lot of ice time regardless of what they do.

For those reasons, Quinn giving the least playing time to the guys who are playing the worst strikes me as a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

I do think there's some legitimacy to the argument that we've already had frustration about playing time have a major impact on 2 prospects (Lias and Kravtsov) and Chytil's comment seems to indicate there is some risk of that becoming an issue with him and, possibly, Lafreniere too. But with Lias, the primary issue seems to have been Lias since a change of scenery hasn't solved anything for him. Kravtsov bounced back from his disappointment and improved. Kakko had similar issues with playing time last year, but he's developed nicely and led the team in ice time tonight.

While I think it's a legitimate concern, ultimately, I lean towards thinking that if someone is going to develop into a good NHL player, they have to be tough enough to take some medicine when they deserve it, learn from it, and get better in the future.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

This is an absolutely ridiculous comment.

Without Igor they lose this game in the 1st period and the last one.

Ridiculous.

What last one? We dominated the last period. He played well, but that first goal sucked and giving up these late third period goals is getting old. Though that's a teamwide thing I'll say.

 

[aufheben]

I think there are a couple angles to the playing time issue:

One is that:
- Getting the team to play within a system that makes them greater than the sum of their of their parts is a really important part of coaching. Barry Trotz and the Islanders are a perfect example of how impactful that can be. Defensive responsibility is an important part of that.
- Giving out playing time based on how well players execute their defensive responsibilities is a perfectly reasonable way to get players to care about and focus on their defensive responsibilities.
- Our worst 3 forwards in corsi against per time played tonight were Gauthier, Chytil, and Lafreniere (they were a combined 65 CA per 60, the 4th line and the Strome-Kakko-Panarin line were around 20 CA per 60, and KZB was around 40).

I also think there is more to developing players than just giving them a lot of ice time. For example, giving them more playing time when they do the right things and less when they don't could be something that is better for their development than just getting a lot of ice time regardless of what they do.

For those reasons, Quinn giving the least playing time to the guys who are playing the worst strikes me as a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

I do think there's some legitimacy to the argument that we've already had frustration about playing time have a major impact on 2 prospects (Lias and Kravtsov) and Chytil's comment seems to indicate there is some risk of that becoming an issue with him and, possibly, Lafreniere too. But with Lias, the primary issue seems to have been Lias since a change of scenery hasn't solved anything for him. Kravtsov bounced back from his disappointment and improved. Kakko had similar issues with playing time last year, but he's developed nicely and led the team in ice time tonight.

While I think it's a legitimate concern, ultimately, I lean towards thinking that if someone is going to develop into a good NHL player, they have to be tough enough to take some medicine when they deserve it, learn from it, and get better in the future.

You know, a lot of people think the reason they can’t keep plants alive is that they forget to water the plants, but more often than not, it’s actually over-watering the plants that kills them.

 

[will1066]

All this talk about the second PP unit. Who cares? They get scraps of time at best and none at worst, with the top heavy first unit using the whole two minutes for one perfect play.

 

[egelband]

I think there are a couple angles to the playing time issue:

One is that:
- Getting the team to play within a system that makes them greater than the sum of their of their parts is a really important part of coaching. Barry Trotz and the Islanders are a perfect example of how impactful that can be. Defensive responsibility is an important part of that.
- Giving out playing time based on how well players execute their defensive responsibilities is a perfectly reasonable way to get players to care about and focus on their defensive responsibilities.
- Our worst 3 forwards in corsi against per time played tonight were Gauthier, Chytil, and Lafreniere (they were a combined 65 CA per 60, the 4th line and the Strome-Kakko-Panarin line were around 20 CA per 60, and KZB was around 40).

I also think there is more to developing players than just giving them a lot of ice time. For example, giving them more playing time when they do the right things and less when they don't could be something that is better for their development than just getting a lot of ice time regardless of what they do.

For those reasons, Quinn giving the least playing time to the guys who are playing the worst strikes me as a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

I do think there's some legitimacy to the argument that we've already had frustration about playing time have a major impact on 2 prospects (Lias and Kravtsov) and Chytil's comment seems to indicate there is some risk of that becoming an issue with him and, possibly, Lafreniere too. But with Lias, the primary issue seems to have been Lias since a change of scenery hasn't solved anything for him. Kravtsov bounced back from his disappointment and improved. Kakko had similar issues with playing time last year, but he's developed nicely and led the team in ice time tonight.

While I think it's a legitimate concern, ultimately, I lean towards thinking that if someone is going to develop into a good NHL player, they have to be tough enough to take some medicine when they deserve it, learn from it, and get better in the future.

Thank you. You deserve Community Service credit for this post.

 

[egelband]

All this talk about the second PP unit. Who cares? They get scraps of time at best and none at worst, with the top heavy first unit using the whole two minutes for one perfect play.

Yes. They definitely should shoot more. Watching them nit pick for 100 seconds might be a Geneva Convention violation. (But I don’t blame Quinn for that. You let your best guys do their thing on the PP).

 

[will1066]

Yes. They definitely should shoot more. Watching them nit pick for 100 seconds might be a Geneva Convention violation. (But I don’t blame Quinn for that. You let your best guys do their thing on the PP).

They tire the penalty killers by boring them rather than by scrambling them

 

[tomobson]

Yes. They definitely should shoot more. Watching them nit pick for 100 seconds might be a Geneva Convention violation. (But I don’t blame Quinn for that. You let your best guys do their thing on the PP).

Strome has so much space on the right side of that pp. No one respects his shot and neither does strome himself. He needs to shoot it more often or they need to find someone else who will. It's useless to have one of the best net-front guys in the league if no one shoots the puck.

 

[aufheben]

Hey wait a second Kakko played 18:29 tonight.

 

[will1066]

I think there are a couple angles to the playing time issue:

One is that:
- Getting the team to play within a system that makes them greater than the sum of their of their parts is a really important part of coaching. Barry Trotz and the Islanders are a perfect example of how impactful that can be. Defensive responsibility is an important part of that.
- Giving out playing time based on how well players execute their defensive responsibilities is a perfectly reasonable way to get players to care about and focus on their defensive responsibilities.
- Our worst 3 forwards in corsi against per time played tonight were Gauthier, Chytil, and Lafreniere (they were a combined 65 CA per 60, the 4th line and the Strome-Kakko-Panarin line were around 20 CA per 60, and KZB was around 40).

I also think there is more to developing players than just giving them a lot of ice time. For example, giving them more playing time when they do the right things and less when they don't could be something that is better for their development than just getting a lot of ice time regardless of what they do.

For those reasons, Quinn giving the least playing time to the guys who are playing the worst strikes me as a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

I do think there's some legitimacy to the argument that we've already had frustration about playing time have a major impact on 2 prospects (Lias and Kravtsov) and Chytil's comment seems to indicate there is some risk of that becoming an issue with him and, possibly, Lafreniere too. But with Lias, the primary issue seems to have been Lias since a change of scenery hasn't solved anything for him. Kravtsov bounced back from his disappointment and improved. Kakko had similar issues with playing time last year, but he's developed nicely and led the team in ice time tonight.

While I think it's a legitimate concern, ultimately, I lean towards thinking that if someone is going to develop into a good NHL player, they have to be tough enough to take some medicine when they deserve it, learn from it, and get better in the future.

Yeah. The whining about Kakko not getting ice time has been redirected to Lafreniere and Chytil now that Kakko is getting heaps of it, because he's earned trust. Trust. It's created when someone can demonstrate something over and over and over again to gain it.

 

[ohbaby]

I don't think games like this have any negative impact on Kakko or Lafreniere, long term.

Chytil though, that may be a different story. D+4 season and looks ready to take a step. He was fantastic before his injury/Covid, and now he can't get ice time; and it isn't for a lack of production.

A broken thumb doesn't heal in 3 or 4 weeks. It can take 3 months or longer to recover full use of your hand. It's probably necessary to limit Chytil's ice time. Though he did look good on that breakaway the other day.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Scenario A: Rangers win in overtime: "Fire Quinn!"

Scenario B: Kakko/Lafreniere commit a game-losing defensive mistake and Rangers lose to the Sabres: "Fire Quinn!"


Kakko looked excellent all game, would've liked to see him in OT but he is still a defensive liability. Blackwell had a great game and was +60% on faceoffs prior to that one OT draw. He earned those minutes even though they got caved in.

He's one of our best defensive forwards.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I certainly hope not but it wouldn't surprise me.

They seem to have this "this is our guy and that's that" attitude like the Giants do with Daniel Jones.

Daniel Jones has shown far more in his rookie season than Quinn has shown as a coach ever.

 

[ohbaby]

Not understanding the "he wants to win" vs. "Quinn sucks" debate. Chytil has been producing all season. He's had his best points per 60 numbers--by a wide margin. He's currently pacing for ~20+ goals and 40+ points over an 82 game season. As a 21 year old. With ZERO time on the powerplay. Who is only getting 13:30 minutes per game on average (the lowest of his four year career, and nearly a minute and a half LESS per game than he got last year). If he's pacing for 20/40 with Quinn skating him in scrub minutes, how much more do you think he'd put up with PP time and decent usage? Chytil has earned it and then some, and this jackass is going to drive him right off the team.

Just look at the time distribution tonight-- Zib playing 25 minutes overall with 6+ on the power play. Strome with 22 minutes overall and 6 on the powerplay. Zib should be getting Strome's numbers, Strome should be around 20 minutes even. That would free up ~5 minutes of TOI (about 2 of which should be PP TOI, giving the first unit ~4+ minutes and the second unit 3+ minutes). Put Chytil on the 2nd unit instead of Blackwell. Put Laf on the 2nd unit instead of Miller or Trouba. Boom, young guys are now getting an additional 3 minutes of 5v5 TOI and 3:30 minutes of sheltered PPTOI for a total of ~16:30 ice time for Chytil and 14:30 for Laf. You can develop and win at the same time.

Frankly, I want to see Chytil move up between Bread and Kakko, and see what Strome can do between Laf and Kravtsov.

Broken thumb. Takes 3 months or more to recover full use of your hand. They might be purposely limiting Chytil's ice time. Why is everyone so impatient with the all the youngsters ice time? We are winning. Isn't that what matters? Soon enough our playoff hopes will be dashed, and all the youngsters will get looked at. Why is everyone so impatient? We just won a hard fought game and everyone is crying about ice time.

There is one beef I have about ice time though. If Kakko has the trust of the coaches to play 18 minutes tonight, then why are they still holding him back in OT? I think he would be great in 3 on 3 play,... especially with his new found defensive responsibility. Didn't he hook up with Fox last year in OT?

 

[TheDirtyH]

I think there are a couple angles to the playing time issue:

One is that:
- Getting the team to play within a system that makes them greater than the sum of their of their parts is a really important part of coaching. Barry Trotz and the Islanders are a perfect example of how impactful that can be. Defensive responsibility is an important part of that.
- Giving out playing time based on how well players execute their defensive responsibilities is a perfectly reasonable way to get players to care about and focus on their defensive responsibilities.
- Our worst 3 forwards in corsi against per time played tonight were Gauthier, Chytil, and Lafreniere (they were a combined 65 CA per 60, the 4th line and the Strome-Kakko-Panarin line were around 20 CA per 60, and KZB was around 40).

I also think there is more to developing players than just giving them a lot of ice time. For example, giving them more playing time when they do the right things and less when they don't could be something that is better for their development than just getting a lot of ice time regardless of what they do.

For those reasons, Quinn giving the least playing time to the guys who are playing the worst strikes me as a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

I do think there's some legitimacy to the argument that we've already had frustration about playing time have a major impact on 2 prospects (Lias and Kravtsov) and Chytil's comment seems to indicate there is some risk of that becoming an issue with him and, possibly, Lafreniere too. But with Lias, the primary issue seems to have been Lias since a change of scenery hasn't solved anything for him. Kravtsov bounced back from his disappointment and improved. Kakko had similar issues with playing time last year, but he's developed nicely and led the team in ice time tonight.

While I think it's a legitimate concern, ultimately, I lean towards thinking that if someone is going to develop into a good NHL player, they have to be tough enough to take some medicine when they deserve it, learn from it, and get better in the future.

These are not new or unique criticisms from a fanbase unto an NHL coach and the explanation for what's happening despite and against fan's expectations you've laid out well.

-'Defensive responsibility' and 'defensive results' should be distinguished here. Much the way Quinn used to distinguish between Howden and Lias by their 'intentions.' Because, in reality, a player can be defensively responsible and defensively inept at the same time. Howden is a great example. We've seen many others here over the years.
-Giving out playing time based on how well they execute is a reasonable thing to do.
-Our best 2 forwards in xGA/60 last game against Washington were Lafreniere and Chytil, who saw 10 and 12 minutes respectively. The game prior against Washington, Lafreniere and Gauthier were 5th and 4th best respectively among forwards, and saw 8 and 7 minutes respectively. The game prior to that Lafreniere and Chytil were 3rd and 2nd.

So in this game, sure, you can make that argument. But let's be clear that Quinn is not talking about CA or xGA when he's talking about defensive responsibility. What's important about that--and why there will never be a bridge between the fans and the coach on something like this--is that we don't and can't know wtf he does mean. And we don't and can't know if the players know what he means. And we don't and can't know if he knows wtf he means.

Lias was a bust. But if we're all still writing the book on Chytil, why close Andersson's now? And who's to say whether he wouldn't be a better player now (for us) if he hadn't gotten the raw deal he seemed to from some fans' perspective. Still, even saying Lias was a bust: what forward prospect has flourished at all under David Quinn? Which one has really hit the ground running? Which has excelled or even lived up to the most modest expectations? Chytil. Chytil has lived up to the most modest expectations. Lias, Kakko, Lafreniere, Howden, Lemieux, Gauthier have all been near epic disasters to this point relative to their profiles and abilities.

It's exhausting and stressful to watch. Management never fails to preach patience and talk about the build and how long it will take. But this is two straight years now of bum-rushing for the playoffs when we've already dug ourselves way out of it and shoving minutes towards older stars regardless of results because in the end the iota of a chance that we make the playoffs lives and dies off of whether Zibanejad can score at a 60 goal clip, Panarin at a 120 point clip, and Adam Fox being a Norris-worthy defensemen. And if Zibanejad and Panarin are gonna get that many points, they're going to need every minute 5v4 and as many 5v5 as they can get.

The coach can say it's about defense all he wants, but anyone with eyes can see what it really is. It's not about teaching. It's not about responsibility. And it's certainly not about defense. It's about winning games, and for the Rangers to do it consistently at this point, they need superstar performances from their superstars.

Many of us are just worried about what's to come when those stars are 34 and the 'next ones' are Jesper Fast and Sam Bennett.

 

[Machinehead]

I know advanced stats say faceoffs “don’t matter” but the game doesn’t go to overtime if the Rangers have a reliable faceoff man.

They don't say faceoffs don't matter. They say faceoffs don't drive possession metrics.

Also, a reliable faceoff man loses 9 out of 20.

 

[tomobson]

Broken thumb. Takes 3 months or more to recover full use of your hand. They are purposely limiting Chytil's ice time. Why is everyone so impatient with the all the youngsters ice time? We are winning. Isn't that what matters? Soon enough our playoff hopes will be dashed, and all the youngsters will get looked at. Why is everyone so impatient? We just won a hard fought game and everyone is crying about ice time.

There is one beef I have about ice time though. If Kakko has the trust of the coaches to play 18 minutes tonight, then why are they still holding him back in OT? I think he would be great in 3 0n 3 play,... especially with his new found defensive responsibility. Didn't he hook up with Fox last year in OT?

Well, it sounds like no one has told Chytil that because he keeps wondering why he's not getting more ice time.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Yeah. The whining about Kakko not getting ice time has been redirected to Lafreniere and Chytil now that Kakko is getting heaps of it, because he's earned trust. Trust. It's created when someone can demonstrate something over and over and over again to gain it.

Except he still barely sees any PP time and couldn't get a shift in OT! I'm not even mad about Quinn anymore. I'm back to my usual not being mad about what the Rangers do since I can't do anything about it, but c'mon

 

[DanielBrassard]

These are not new or unique criticisms from a fanbase unto an NHL coach and the explanation for what's happening despite and against fan's expectations you've laid out well.

-'Defensive responsibility' and 'defensive results' should be distinguished here. Much the way Quinn used to distinguish between Howden and Lias by their 'intentions.' Because, in reality, a player can be defensively responsible and defensively inept at the same time. Howden is a great example. We've seen many others here over the years.
-Giving out playing time based on how well they execute is a reasonable thing to do.
-Our best 2 forwards in xGA/60 last game against Washington were Lafreniere and Chytil, who saw 10 and 12 minutes respectively. The game prior against Washington, Lafreniere and Gauthier were 5th and 4th best respectively among forwards, and saw 8 and 7 minutes respectively. The game prior to that Lafreniere and Chytil were 3rd and 2nd.

So in this game, sure, you can make that argument. But let's be clear that Quinn is not talking about CA or xGA when he's talking about defensive responsibility. What's important about that--and why there will never be a bridge between the fans and the coach on something like this--is that we don't and can't know wtf he does mean. And we don't and can't know if the players know what he means. And we don't and can't know if he knows wtf he means.

Lias was a bust. But if we're all still writing the book on Chytil, why close Andersson's now? And who's to say whether he wouldn't be a better player now (for us) if he hadn't gotten the raw deal he seemed to from some fans' perspective. Still, even saying Lias was a bust: what forward prospect has flourished at all under David Quinn? Which one has really hit the ground running? Which has excelled or even lived up to the most modest expectations? Chytil. Chytil has lived up to the most modest expectations. Lias, Kakko, Lafreniere, Howden, Lemieux, Gauthier have all been near epic disasters to this point relative to their profiles and abilities.

It's exhausting and stressful to watch. Management never fails to preach patience and talk about the build and how long it will take. But this is two straight years now of bum-rushing for the playoffs when we've already dug ourselves way out of it and shoving minutes towards older stars regardless of results because in the end the iota of a chance that we make the playoffs lives and dies off of whether Zibanejad can score at a 60 goal clip, Panarin at a 120 point clip, and Adam Fox being a Norris-worthy defensemen. And if Zibanejad and Panarin are gonna get that many points, they're going to need every minute 5v4 and as many 5v5 as they can get.

The coach can say it's about defense all he wants, but anyone with eyes can see what it really is. It's not about teaching. It's not about responsibility. And it's certainly not about defense. It's about winning games, and for the Rangers to do it consistently at this point, they need superstar performances from their superstars.

Many of us are just worried about what's to come when those stars are 34 and the 'next ones' are Jesper Fast and Sam Bennett.

Amazin. I mean that with all sincerity. Great post

 

[Machinehead]

Dead wrong.

Coaches who don't care about winning every game will not be around when the team eventually becomes good, if they become good.

We don' really want Quinn around when we become good.