Post-Game Talk: Rangers @ Sabres -- 4/1/21

[Machinehead]

If they were gonna play the kids 8 minutes to go nuts out for the playoffs anyway, they could have hired an NHL coach.

 

[ohbaby]

Well, it sounds like no one has told Chytil that because he keeps wondering why he's not getting more ice time.

He hinted about it in a press conference. When asked about it, he said if it did hurt, I wouldn't tell you guys about it. When all he had to say was,.. that it is fine.

 

[Fitzy]

Not to interrupt the narrative we've got going here, but just a random observation...

Taylor Hall has only one 30+ goal season in the NHL, and he won MVP that year. He's shooting ten percent for his career.

Not exactly a marquee player.

 

[tomobson]

If they were gonna play the kids 8 minutes to go nuts out for the playoffs anyway, they could have hired an NHL coach.

And they still can! If management wants to win there's nothing we can do about it but at least get a real coach in here.

 

[ohbaby]

These are not new or unique criticisms from a fanbase unto an NHL coach and the explanation for what's happening despite and against fan's expectations you've laid out well.

-'Defensive responsibility' and 'defensive results' should be distinguished here. Much the way Quinn used to distinguish between Howden and Lias by their 'intentions.' Because, in reality, a player can be defensively responsible and defensively inept at the same time. Howden is a great example. We've seen many others here over the years.
-Giving out playing time based on how well they execute is a reasonable thing to do.
-Our best 2 forwards in xGA/60 last game against Washington were Lafreniere and Chytil, who saw 10 and 12 minutes respectively. The game prior against Washington, Lafreniere and Gauthier were 5th and 4th best respectively among forwards, and saw 8 and 7 minutes respectively. The game prior to that Lafreniere and Chytil were 3rd and 2nd.

So in this game, sure, you can make that argument. But let's be clear that Quinn is not talking about CA or xGA when he's talking about defensive responsibility. What's important about that--and why there will never be a bridge between the fans and the coach on something like this--is that we don't and can't know wtf he does mean. And we don't and can't know if the players know what he means. And we don't and can't know if he knows wtf he means.

Lias was a bust. But if we're all still writing the book on Chytil, why close Andersson's now? And who's to say whether he wouldn't be a better player now (for us) if he hadn't gotten the raw deal he seemed to from some fans' perspective. Still, even saying Lias was a bust: what forward prospect has flourished at all under David Quinn? Which one has really hit the ground running? Which has excelled or even lived up to the most modest expectations? Chytil. Chytil has lived up to the most modest expectations. Lias, Kakko, Lafreniere, Howden, Lemieux, Gauthier have all been near epic disasters to this point relative to their profiles and abilities.

It's exhausting and stressful to watch. Management never fails to preach patience and talk about the build and how long it will take. But this is two straight years now of bum-rushing for the playoffs when we've already dug ourselves way out of it and shoving minutes towards older stars regardless of results because in the end the iota of a chance that we make the playoffs lives and dies off of whether Zibanejad can score at a 60 goal clip, Panarin at a 120 point clip, and Adam Fox being a Norris-worthy defensemen. And if Zibanejad and Panarin are gonna get that many points, they're going to need every minute 5v4 and as many 5v5 as they can get.

The coach can say it's about defense all he wants, but anyone with eyes can see what it really is. It's not about teaching. It's not about responsibility. And it's certainly not about defense. It's about winning games, and for the Rangers to do it consistently at this point, they need superstar performances from their superstars.

Many of us are just worried about what's to come when those stars are 34 and the 'next ones' are Jesper Fast and Sam Bennett.

This is a bit over the top. You're not really suggesting Chytil, Kakko, and Lafreniere will end up being a Jesper Fast,... are you? I can understand somewhat the impatience not to play these top prospects on the 1st or 2nd line. But when you have a Zibanejad, Kreider, Buch, Panarin, and Strome, playing close to their absolute best in their careers, asking for additional minutes for our top prospects is almost an impossibility. 3rd line minutes is all they'll get, and I know,... any coach in the NHL would do the same. The youngsters had limited opportunities to move up in the line up, with players being out. They had a few chances to earn top minutes. They are just not ready to replace guys playing their career best. Kakko has improved and has now moved up. So there is no great conspiracy to hold back the kids or that the coaches don't have a clue. It's only how the NHL works.

 

[egelband]

This is a bit over the top. You're not really suggesting Chytil, Kakko, and Lafreniere will end up being a Jesper Fast,... are you? I can understand somewhat the impatience not to play these top prospects on the 1st or 2nd line. But when you have a Zibanejad, Kreider, Buch, Panarin, and Strome, playing close to their absolute best in their careers, asking for additional minutes for our top prospects is almost an impossibility. 3rd line minutes is all they'll get, and I know,... any coach in the NHL would do the same. The youngsters had limited opportunities to move up in the line up, with players being out. They had a few chances to earn top minutes. They are just not ready to replace guys playing their career best. Kakko has improved and has now moved up. So there is no great conspiracy to hold back the kids or that the coaches don't have a clue. It's only how NHL works.

Yep. I think the team could find a few more minutes for the young forwards, and should. But at the moment they are obviously leaning on the top six.

 

[ohbaby]

Yep. I think the team could find a few more minutes for the young forwards, and should. But at the moment they are obviously leaning on the top six.

Our two top lines aren't playing anymore minutes than any other teams, two top lines. 3rd lines minutes is the best they will get for now. After the roster expansion, all the youngsters will get a good look. Assuming we are mathematically eliminated. This is the NHL, not a prospect's camp.

 

[egelband]

I’ve never even heard of roster expansion. Does that imply the cap doesn’t apply? Or is that waivers-related?

 

[ohbaby]

I’ve never even heard of roster expansion. Does that imply the cap doesn’t apply? Or is that waivers-related?

"Oh, and by the way, this number changes at the trade deadline. After that, the team can add additional players to the active roster, but while the active roster changes, the number of players on the bench during a game does not increase. Any players over the 23-man limit must still fit under the team’s maximum “Actual Club Salary” (the so-called “salary cap”), as specified in CBA Article 50.2 (c)."

NHL Reserve Lists and Rosters Explained (thehockeywriters.com)

Their might be different circumstances this year due to the taxi squad. I know Morgan Barron is expected to join the team and that wouldn't be possible otherwise without risking someone to waivers.

 

[egelband]

"Oh, and by the way, this number changes at the trade deadline. After that, the team can add additional players to the active roster, but while the active roster changes, the number of players on the bench during a game does not increase. Any players over the 23-man limit must still fit under the team’s maximum “Actual Club Salary” (the so-called “salary cap”), as specified in CBA Article 50.2 (c)."

NHL Reserve Lists and Rosters Explained (thehockeywriters.com)

Their might be different circumstances this year due to COVID. I know Morgan Barron is expected to join the team and that wouldn't be possible otherwise without risking someone to waivers.

I did look it up too. It’s definitely a thing. I suspect it has to do with waivers, practically. Because they don’t lift the cap after the deadline. Probably to discourage or prohibit teams from manipulating the waiver process.

 

[ohbaby]

I did look it up too. It’s definitely a thing. I suspect it has to do with waivers, practically. Because they don’t lift the cap after the deadline. Probably to discourage or prohibit teams from manipulating the waiver process.

For a minute when you questioned it, I thought I may have mixed up my sports. I know baseball does it for sure. But then I remembered they do it every year in the NHL too at the trade deadline. You threw me with that question. A knowledgeable fella like yourself should know this.

Don't do that to me. LOL

Senility is one of the biggest fears a person my age has. LOL

 

[The S5]

What last one? We dominated the last period. He played well, but that first goal sucked and giving up these late third period goals is getting old. Though that's a teamwide thing I'll say.

I didn't even think to blame Igor on the last goal. Zibby lost the draw, then went into a trance puck watching in space. It was clear that a goal wasn't going to be scored from the wall. Why he didn't turn and pick up a body is beyond me.
He somewhat redeemed himself on the OT winner, but I'll give most of the credit on that one to Fox and Panarin.

 

[wolfgaze]

 

[Irishguy42]

 

[mas0764]

These are not new or unique criticisms from a fanbase unto an NHL coach and the explanation for what's happening despite and against fan's expectations you've laid out well.

-'Defensive responsibility' and 'defensive results' should be distinguished here. Much the way Quinn used to distinguish between Howden and Lias by their 'intentions.' Because, in reality, a player can be defensively responsible and defensively inept at the same time. Howden is a great example. We've seen many others here over the years.
-Giving out playing time based on how well they execute is a reasonable thing to do.
-Our best 2 forwards in xGA/60 last game against Washington were Lafreniere and Chytil, who saw 10 and 12 minutes respectively. The game prior against Washington, Lafreniere and Gauthier were 5th and 4th best respectively among forwards, and saw 8 and 7 minutes respectively. The game prior to that Lafreniere and Chytil were 3rd and 2nd.

So in this game, sure, you can make that argument. But let's be clear that Quinn is not talking about CA or xGA when he's talking about defensive responsibility. What's important about that--and why there will never be a bridge between the fans and the coach on something like this--is that we don't and can't know wtf he does mean. And we don't and can't know if the players know what he means. And we don't and can't know if he knows wtf he means.

Lias was a bust. But if we're all still writing the book on Chytil, why close Andersson's now? And who's to say whether he wouldn't be a better player now (for us) if he hadn't gotten the raw deal he seemed to from some fans' perspective. Still, even saying Lias was a bust: what forward prospect has flourished at all under David Quinn? Which one has really hit the ground running? Which has excelled or even lived up to the most modest expectations? Chytil. Chytil has lived up to the most modest expectations. Lias, Kakko, Lafreniere, Howden, Lemieux, Gauthier have all been near epic disasters to this point relative to their profiles and abilities.

It's exhausting and stressful to watch. Management never fails to preach patience and talk about the build and how long it will take. But this is two straight years now of bum-rushing for the playoffs when we've already dug ourselves way out of it and shoving minutes towards older stars regardless of results because in the end the iota of a chance that we make the playoffs lives and dies off of whether Zibanejad can score at a 60 goal clip, Panarin at a 120 point clip, and Adam Fox being a Norris-worthy defensemen. And if Zibanejad and Panarin are gonna get that many points, they're going to need every minute 5v4 and as many 5v5 as they can get.

The coach can say it's about defense all he wants, but anyone with eyes can see what it really is. It's not about teaching. It's not about responsibility. And it's certainly not about defense. It's about winning games, and for the Rangers to do it consistently at this point, they need superstar performances from their superstars.

Many of us are just worried about what's to come when those stars are 34 and the 'next ones' are Jesper Fast and Sam Bennett.

Bingo.

 

[Larrybiv]

For a minute when you questioned it, I thought I may have mixed up my sports. I know baseball does it for sure. But then I remembered they do it every year in the NHL too at the trade deadline. You threw me with that question. A knowledgeable fella like yourself should know this.

Don't do that to me. LOL

Senility is one of the biggest fears a person my age has. LOL

How about not knowing some of these things to begin with, and then a little senility sprinkled in.....

Then you have someone that doesnt know what to believe, what the facts are and how it is applied in certain situations.
Hmmm, that could be worse.

 

[mas0764]

This is a bit over the top. You're not really suggesting Chytil, Kakko, and Lafreniere will end up being a Jesper Fast,... are you? I can understand somewhat the impatience not to play these top prospects on the 1st or 2nd line. But when you have a Zibanejad, Kreider, Buch, Panarin, and Strome, playing close to their absolute best in their careers, asking for additional minutes for our top prospects is almost an impossibility. 3rd line minutes is all they'll get, and I know,... any coach in the NHL would do the same. The youngsters had limited opportunities to move up in the line up, with players being out. They had a few chances to earn top minutes. They are just not ready to replace guys playing their career best. Kakko has improved and has now moved up. So there is no great conspiracy to hold back the kids or that the coaches don't have a clue. It's only how NHL works.

Its not an impossibility. Here’s a few suggestions how to change it easily: Give Lafreniere more than one third period shift, put Lafreniere or Kakko on the power play, put Kakko on the penalty kill, stop being afraid to use them in OT, etc.

Done, not impossible at all.

The thing is, the team might lose a game here or there if Lafreniere is out there instead of Strome or Buch.

But that’s what we are arguing doesn’t matter, the incessant drive to make the playoffs at all costs. Boy that 3 game sweep last year was a real learning experience.

 

[Larrybiv]

Ordinarily, I read every pgt, but I know what will be said here.
We will rip our team, we will continue to want Quinn fired, we will question everything he did, and didnt do, his minimal minutes to the kids. Rinse and repeat.

I just wanna share one thought. What is Quinn really supposed to do? They DO have some sort of responsibility in "trying to" make the PO's, dont they? A winning culture is imperative and will go a long long way.

Should he be playing the kids on the 1st line and moving our "vets" down, relying on the kids to carry the winning "load"?
We wont win that way. And losing would frustrate EVERYBODY.
Including the people that want what they want.

Every really solid PO bound and cup contender, has many tough decisions to make.
Our Rangers are no exception. There will be seriously tough decisions down the road. A very good problem to have.
Don't ya' think?

 

[mas0764]

Ordinarily, I read every pgt, but I know what will be said here.
We will rip our team, we will continue to want Quinn fired, we will question everything he did, and didnt do, his minimal minutes to the kids. Rinse and repeat.

I just wanna share one thought. What is Quinn really supposed to do? They DO have some sort of responsibility in "trying to" make the PO's, dont they? A winning culture is imperative and will go a long long way.

Should he be playing the kids on the 1st line and moving our "vets" down, relying on the kids to carry the winning "load"?
We wont win that way. And losing would frustrate EVERYBODY.
Including the people that want what they want.

Every really solid PO bound and cup contender, has many tough decisions to make.
Our Rangers are no exception. There will be seriously tough decisions down the road. A very good problem to have.
Don't ya' think?

Making the playoffs should be a goal, but secondary to developing Kakko and Lafreniere and the rest of the kids including Kravtsov.

And to that end he could give them pp time, trust them to take an OT shift, or at least give them more than 8 minutes a night or one third period shift.

 

[Larrybiv]

They are really going to have to focus this next Buffalo game.
Better not even be looking at those 2 Penguin games. Thats for US to do, and I will.

Pittsburgh helping us by beating Boston doesnt go unnoticed. And another on Saturday will be great. But in order for that to be relevant, we have to beat Pittsburgh, because that is how this shit works this season.

And we OWE Pittsburgh BIG TIME!

 

[JHS]

Got to say- I like a lot of what I’m seeing from the Rangers right now. Lots of positives! They held tough and did not panic last night when falling behind. Kappo looks great, Igor looks great, Miller looks great, the top 6 all look like they are skating well, Fox looks great and the D is solid overall.

Ive been outspoken about Quinn needing to go— and I still believe that’s true— but this team is looking way more seasoned than I was expecting pre coaching staff quarantine.

 

[JHS]

These are not new or unique criticisms from a fanbase unto an NHL coach and the explanation for what's happening despite and against fan's expectations you've laid out well.

-'Defensive responsibility' and 'defensive results' should be distinguished here. Much the way Quinn used to distinguish between Howden and Lias by their 'intentions.' Because, in reality, a player can be defensively responsible and defensively inept at the same time. Howden is a great example. We've seen many others here over the years.
-Giving out playing time based on how well they execute is a reasonable thing to do.
-Our best 2 forwards in xGA/60 last game against Washington were Lafreniere and Chytil, who saw 10 and 12 minutes respectively. The game prior against Washington, Lafreniere and Gauthier were 5th and 4th best respectively among forwards, and saw 8 and 7 minutes respectively. The game prior to that Lafreniere and Chytil were 3rd and 2nd.

So in this game, sure, you can make that argument. But let's be clear that Quinn is not talking about CA or xGA when he's talking about defensive responsibility. What's important about that--and why there will never be a bridge between the fans and the coach on something like this--is that we don't and can't know wtf he does mean. And we don't and can't know if the players know what he means. And we don't and can't know if he knows wtf he means.

Lias was a bust. But if we're all still writing the book on Chytil, why close Andersson's now? And who's to say whether he wouldn't be a better player now (for us) if he hadn't gotten the raw deal he seemed to from some fans' perspective. Still, even saying Lias was a bust: what forward prospect has flourished at all under David Quinn? Which one has really hit the ground running? Which has excelled or even lived up to the most modest expectations? Chytil. Chytil has lived up to the most modest expectations. Lias, Kakko, Lafreniere, Howden, Lemieux, Gauthier have all been near epic disasters to this point relative to their profiles and abilities.

It's exhausting and stressful to watch. Management never fails to preach patience and talk about the build and how long it will take. But this is two straight years now of bum-rushing for the playoffs when we've already dug ourselves way out of it and shoving minutes towards older stars regardless of results because in the end the iota of a chance that we make the playoffs lives and dies off of whether Zibanejad can score at a 60 goal clip, Panarin at a 120 point clip, and Adam Fox being a Norris-worthy defensemen. And if Zibanejad and Panarin are gonna get that many points, they're going to need every minute 5v4 and as many 5v5 as they can get.

The coach can say it's about defense all he wants, but anyone with eyes can see what it really is. It's not about teaching. It's not about responsibility. And it's certainly not about defense. It's about winning games, and for the Rangers to do it consistently at this point, they need superstar performances from their superstars.

Many of us are just worried about what's to come when those stars are 34 and the 'next ones' are Jesper Fast and Sam Bennett.

At some point you’ve got to enjoy the here and now. I’m pessimistic by nature but this post says to my pessimism “hold my beer.” Sure not all these prospects will pan out but most are looking better and a core is developing that looks really good. We can project the worst into everything but that’s not true and rarely is accurate.

I agree Quinn is a mess and needs to go. I agree that teams have windows and I’ve made the point that this team had 2 windows that I can see, one is in the next few seasons and one is right after they decide which players are keepers. But the Rangers future is much brighter than a lot of the NHL especially those other teams who seem to be stuck in perpetual rebuild.

 

[alkurtz]

Like most fans, I too wish that the kids were getting more ice time. But, long ago I came to the realization that trying to develop kids on a losing team hinders their development. Young players must grow not only individually but as teammates and in a winning atmosphere; an atmosphere that stresses not only development but winning. There are many examples of teams that have drafted a lot of young talent but with rebuilds that failed. Buffalo is an example of that.

So, for now, although I want the kids to play more, I am not all the upset with their sheltered and limited ice time. I have little hope that this team will make the playoffs or, if they make it in, last all the long, but perhaps the attitude being portrayed now, that in sports you play to win and that is what we are doing, will, in the long run, do more for our young player's, development than playing three, four, or five more minutes a night.

Perhaps this is keeping the eye on the prize, long term.

 

[LetsGoRangers2021]

I know advanced stats say faceoffs “don’t matter” but the game doesn’t go to overtime if the Rangers have a reliable faceoff man.

this. Common sense says faceoffs matter. This wasn’t the first time.

 

[kovazub94]

Fans who get rabidly angry after a win are amusing. Not bright, but amusing.

Considering your handle, it's impossible to believe that your beef is with management, unless you have a whole bunch of typos in it.

Not bright - down right stupid. Not amusing - at that level it’s pretty annoying.