Prospect Info: Prospect and Marlies Thread: 2017 - 2018 (continued) Part II

[saltming]

Korshkov has not exactly lit it up in the khl..

His team was a tire fire to start the season and nobody was doing anything. Still a lot of potential there

 

[weems]

His team was a tire fire to start the season and nobody was doing anything. Still a lot of potential there

We also dont need every player we have on our team be a PPG monster (we already have 3 of those).

If Korshkov can turn into a 3rd line or better PF, who plays good two way hockey and chips in offensively, I'd call that a usefull piece.

Being able to roll 4 quality lines and having as many good players as you can fill those 12 forward spots is where the league is going.

 

[WTFMAN99]

If Korshkov comes over, we can get him top line minutes on the Marlies next year.

Also, do we need to sign Dakota Joshua this off-season?

 

[SeaOfBlue]

If Korshkov comes over, we can get him top line minutes on the Marlies next year.

Also, do we need to sign Dakota Joshua this off-season?

No. He has one more year in the NCAA, and will certainly get it. Unless he has a big senior year, he may have to settle for an AHL deal with us next year.

Leafs would need to sign Mattinen, Middleton, Vesey, Piccinich (although he's already on an AHL deal so it's not like he's going anywhere), Engvall and Bobylev.

Out of that group, Engvall, Mattinen and Middleton are the only ones who would get any sort of serious consideration for an ELC. Vesey and Bobylev could be good options for AHL deals though. Bobylev may decide that he's not going to break through in the KHL right now and has shown a willingness to come to NA so maybe he'd be willing to give the Solar Bears (or possibly even the Marlies) a shot for a few years.

As for Korshkov, I still think he could form a line with Grundstrom and Aaltonen next year. Essentially would be the new Johnsson and Kapanen for the Marlies. Then if Moore, Timashov and Mueller can step up, and Bracco and Marchment can handle a full time top 9 role with either Brooks or a new UFA 3C (i.e. Evans, Sikura, Kahun), then it's still a pretty good forward group.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

And just for those worried about Middleton's production.

Pre OHL TDL: 36 GMs- 15 points, +18
Post OHL TDL: 25 GMS - 8 points, -19

The second half has not been great to Saginaw, and especially not to Middleton. Seems like the fact they are trying to get Reilly Webb, a fridge who apparently can skate and was drafted by Detroit with the intention that he probably become like Nicolas Mattinen (not that even he would be a great model to follow) but only has 3 points in 82 games, is not working out well for them. He's a -10. He replaced a different rookie fridge in Brock Hill, but it has not exactly worked out... I think Brock Hill was a better guy.

 

[Duke16]

 

[WTFMAN99]

No. He has one more year in the NCAA, and will certainly get it. Unless he has a big senior year, he may have to settle for an AHL deal with us next year.

Leafs would need to sign Mattinen, Middleton, Vesey, Piccinich (although he's already on an AHL deal so it's not like he's going anywhere), Engvall and Bobylev.

Out of that group, Engvall, Mattinen and Middleton are the only ones who would get any sort of serious consideration for an ELC. Vesey and Bobylev could be good options for AHL deals though. Bobylev may decide that he's not going to break through in the KHL right now and has shown a willingness to come to NA so maybe he'd be willing to give the Solar Bears (or possibly even the Marlies) a shot for a few years.

As for Korshkov, I still think he could form a line with Grundstrom and Aaltonen next year. Essentially would be the new Johnsson and Kapanen for the Marlies. Then if Moore, Timashov and Mueller can step up, and Bracco and Marchment can handle a full time top 9 role with either Brooks or a new UFA 3C (i.e. Evans, Sikura, Kahun), then it's still a pretty good forward group.

Yeah I was thinking if we can get Korshkov over for next year, learn the NA game in the AHL he could be ready the following year to jump into the NHL where we'll need him on a cheap ELC. I think Dakota is in a good position because of the lack of centre in the organization.

Well earned!

 

[MyBudJT]

Korshkov has not exactly lit it up in the khl..

Grundstrom hasn't exactly 'lit up' the SHL either... I still prefer Korshkov although I think they'll both have similar NHL futures...

 

[4thline]

Good to see. The start date will be interesting, if he's playing it College UFA style hoping to burn a year this season or if they'll bridge with a higher paying PTO to finish giving us two full ELC seasons.

Like I said in October, love this kids trajectory and potential fit in terms of style

 

[4thline]

Thanks for posting this.

I share the same feeling with regards to Bracco, Marchment and Brooks.

I love the way Keefe and the Marlies staff are handling these players by really easing them in and forcing them to learn the defensive side of the game.

Thanks.

It goes beyond the easing in too. Watching them live is pretty incredible. Every single forward is strong on the puck, hard up and down the ice, decent along the wall, and has the skill to move the puck quickly. I think having guys like Greening and Smith down there has made an incalculable difference. People mock "gud pro" but it's been a huge part of our early success, and will continue to be moving forward. Babcock just has be more subtle than Keefe on the teaching and molding side. Knowing that this is the vision for the Leafs makes me very happy.

I really liked Brooks game at C yesterday. Never seemed to make a mistake, always in position, just hasn't adopted to thrive offensively- yet. If he pans out I see the perfect Bozak 2.0. The vanilla 3C that can thrive with skill but better defensively

 

[SprDaVE]

Yeah I was thinking if we can get Korshkov over for next year, learn the NA game in the AHL he could be ready the following year to jump into the NHL where we'll need him on a cheap ELC. I think Dakota is in a good position because of the lack of centre in the organization.



Well earned!

Marchment is another player found by Dubas that went from ECHL/AHL to ELC. Pretty big.

Not sure about his NHL potential but he's going to be a really good AHL power forward.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Marchment is another player found by Dubas that went from ECHL/AHL to ELC. Pretty big.

Not sure about his NHL potential but he's going to be a really good AHL power forward.

He plays a pretty physical game and I think he has better hands then Martin. He jumps in for teammates without hesitation, wouldn't be opposed to him as a 4th line banger at some point.

 

[nuck]

Grundstrom hasn't exactly 'lit up' the SHL either... I still prefer Korshkov although I think they'll both have similar NHL futures...

Compare Grundstrom to Johnsson at the same age. He is actually pretty impressive given that he is a much bigger body than AJ. SweHL only has around five 20 goal scorers in a typical year and barring an injury he is one. He's had steady improvement every season compared to Korsh who's numbers are basically a repeat of last year. Plus Grundstrom is almost a year and a half younger. Korshkov would have to be doing a ton of extra stuff without the puck to be a comparable talent, although the weird usage of younger players in the KHL might distort things a bit.

 

[Jeypic]

I don't think they'll need to pass the Nylander/Marner echelon, but could be good supplements to it. JVR's probably a cap casualty this year, if so he's not competing for a spot. Marleau hasn't impressed me at all, he's fine but not an insurmountable obstacle, and by the time that Bracco gets a real look Marleau will be gone anyway, so a couple of the guys that you see as obstacles really aren't due to contract status or age.

Leivo plays both sides too, so he'd have to be better than Brown, Hyman, Marleau or Komarov. He is better than Hyman and Komarov, the other two are very open to debate, and that debate couldn't be conclusive until he actually got some playing time there

Leivo is at 70% defensive zone starts this year, and over 50% last year. His quality of linemates this year is among the worst on the team. Not sure if you mean that confirms that he's an offense-only player, or that he can't move up the lineup. He's a very good defensive player 5v5 because he's good at possessing the puck so he doesn't have to play defense, and he can't control his usage - he's earned better, the rest isn't in his hands

Brown Hyman and komarov all play the penalty kill. Leivo does not, and that’s why he hasn’t been a full time member of our team. I fear the same development path for bracco.

As you just pointed out.. leivo’s already better then some of those guys but not on the ice instead of them. Exactly the point I’m trying to prove. At least he adds size though. Bracco is another small winger.

I’m not saying these guys can’t play hockey. I’m saying our roster is currently full for the position they are applying for. Management had that conversation with kapanen last year, and I’m glad they did.

 

[MyBudJT]

Compare Grundstrom to Johnsson at the same age. He is actually pretty impressive given that he is a much bigger body than AJ. SweHL only has around five 20 goal scorers in a typical year and barring an injury he is one. He's had steady improvement every season compared to Korsh who's numbers are basically a repeat of last year. Plus Grundstrom is almost a year and a half younger. Korshkov would have to be doing a ton of extra stuff without the puck to be a comparable talent, although the weird usage of younger players in the KHL might distort things a bit.

1) Why are you bringing Johnsson into this? He hasn't proven anything yet, really...
2) KHL > SHL... so although Korshkov has produced less, I'd say what he's done is more impressive.
3) Korshkov had a slow start to the season, largely because of poor coaching

I think Grundstrom has the extra interest around here becuase of his exceptional AHL playoff performance last year, but I think Leafs fans will be pleasently surprised with Korshkov... I'm not saying Korshkov is significantly better, they're probably in the same tier... I just prefer Korshkov's package a bit more...

 

[Randy Randerson]

Brown Hyman and komarov all play the penalty kill. Leivo does not, and that’s why he hasn’t been a full time member of our team. I fear the same development path for bracco.

As you just pointed out.. leivo’s already better then some of those guys but not on the ice instead of them. Exactly the point I’m trying to prove. At least he adds size though. Bracco is another small winger.

I’m not saying these guys can’t play hockey. I’m saying our roster is currently full for the position they are applying for.

they're not all competing for roster spots right now, by the time Bracco gets here there will be vacancies where JVR, Komarov & Marleau used to be and maybe 5v5 where Nylander was if he moves to center. As unlikely as it is, Hyman probably should be playing in a bottom 6 role as well, so if that move ever happens there's another scoring line wing role available

I think it's all a lot more flexible than you're making it out to be, if either of Leivo or Bracco hits their offensive potential we'll find a place for them to play.

Other likely additions to the team in the next few years, Johnsson & Grundstrom, can also kill penalties
Komarov's role going to Johnsson leaves us with Brown & Hyman as the top PK unit with Kapanen, Johnsson, and probably the 3rd & 4th line centers as capable penalty killers

Next year's forward group could look something like:
Hyman-Matthews-Nylander
Marleau-Kadri-Marner
Leivo-3C-Brown
Johnsson-4C-Kapanen

which leaves space for Leivo, Kapanen & an additional winger prospect out of the system and has 4-6 forwards who can be regular penalty killers. After that, Marleau's spot will need a replacement in time for Bracco to compete for it

 

[stickty111]

Jesper Lindgren's team didnt make the playoffs. He missed the last month and little more because of an injury. Unfortunate as he was having another good season. Wonder if he gets offered an ATO by the Marlies.

 

[Pyromaniac]

Grundstrom is with a first class organization in Frolunda. I would not mind sending him back for another year if he does not make the team. I believe the Leafs brass has faith in their ability to develop players in that organization. Frolunda has also found a happy medium between on-ice performance and player development.

Korshkov on the other hand has had less opportunities than Grundstrom, I believe part of it is that the KHL teams put less emphasis on player development than in the SHL. I believe the best move going forward is to bring him over to the Marlies as soon as possible.

 

[Jeypic]

they're not all competing for roster spots right now, by the time Bracco gets here there will be vacancies where JVR, Komarov & Marleau used to be and maybe 5v5 where Nylander was if he moves to center. As unlikely as it is, Hyman probably should be playing in a bottom 6 role as well, so if that move ever happens there's another scoring line wing role available

I think it's all a lot more flexible than you're making it out to be, if either of Leivo or Bracco hits their offensive potential we'll find a place for them to play.

Other likely additions to the team in the next few years, Johnsson & Grundstrom, can also kill penalties
Komarov's role going to Johnsson leaves us with Brown & Hyman as the top PK unit with Kapanen, Johnsson, and probably the 3rd & 4th line centers as capable penalty killers

Next year's forward group could look something like:
Hyman-Matthews-Nylander
Marleau-Kadri-Marner
Leivo-3C-Brown
Johnsson-4C-Kapanen

which leaves space for Leivo, Kapanen & an additional winger prospect out of the system and has 4-6 forwards who can be regular penalty killers. After that, Marleau's spot will need a replacement in time for Bracco to compete for it

It might be more flexible.. it might be less. We could sign Tavares.. or resign jvr. Bozack very likely could be resigned as our 3c and he doesn’t play the pk either. All I know is leivo was asking for a trade about a month ago. So it might not be as rosy as you’re making it out to be either.

I could see Leivo being a part of our team for another year and then maybe bracco taking his spot the following year.. but these guys are supplemental scoring wingers that won’t get paid to hang around when we gotta save money to pay the marners nylanders and Matthews of the world. and you better believe the kapanen’s who put in the work to adapt their game for a different role will be getting paid before them too.

 

[Prominence]

1) Why are you bringing Johnsson into this? He hasn't proven anything yet, really...
2) KHL > SHL... so although Korshkov has produced less, I'd say what he's done is more impressive.
3) Korshkov had a slow start to the season, largely because of poor coaching

I think Grundstrom has the extra interest around here becuase of his exceptional AHL playoff performance last year, but I think Leafs fans will be pleasently surprised with Korshkov... I'm not saying Korshkov is significantly better, they're probably in the same tier... I just prefer Korshkov's package a bit more...

He’s bringing Johnson into this because they are both comparables. Grundstrom is getting praise because he’s putting up points for a style that involves more aggressive forecheck and should be more translatable to the NHL.

Developmentally wise, khl is equal to shl. Both produce prospects that make and don’t make the nhl. Khl does make it harder for u23 prospects to grab top line minutes. Granted korshkov’s production is decent considering he does not play top line minutes, but he is turning 22.

I think him not getting top six minutes is a bigger problem than the coaching.

Package? Korshkov is more of a skilled guy, but he’s not a top line player. He may fit on the 2nd line. The last time I watched him, he was easy to knock off the puck and he did not look like s puck possession beast. He has good positioning on the pk, but I would say he’s behind brown, Hyman, komarov (I rather not see him re-signed) in terms of defensive acumen. Higher ceiling in skill, but the sentiment in this thread should be tempered.

I’ll admit I have never seen grundstrom play in the shl, but he sounds like a possession driver and strong forechecker. He should have the higher floor and has more primary points than korshkov which bodes well for his transition to the nhl.

 

[Randy Randerson]

It might be more flexible.. it might be less. We could sign Tavares.. or resign jvr. Bozack very likely could be resigned as our 3c and he doesn’t play the pk either. All I know is leivo was asking for a trade about a month ago. So it might not be as rosy as you’re making it out to be either.

I could see Leivo being a part of our team for another year and then maybe bracco taking his spot the following year.. but these guys are supplemental scoring wingers that won’t get paid to hang around when we gotta save money to pay the marners nylanders and Matthews of the world. and you better believe the kapanen’s who put in the work to adapt their game for a different role will be getting paid before them too.

subsequent moves that lock up rosters spots would make it less flexible, those haven't happened yet so it's still wide open

I could see Bozak back, that would still leave 5 guys capable of being regular penalty killers, so again doesn't look like a prerequisite to getting a roster spot

Not likely that Bracco and Leivo play the same role, more likely that Grundstrom/Korshkov would take Leivo's as LW's that can play in the dirty areas. Bracco is just a RW and more of a perimeter player. But if Leivo turns out, there's not much incentive to move on from him that quickly, especially when he'll be cheap - money is one of the primary reasons to keep a guy like this around until they get expensive - that would only be after next year if he explodes for an allstar type season then he turns into a core piece.

Kapanen really didn't do much adapting, he had the tools to play a PK role with his speed so he gets used that way. Again Leivo is a very good defensive player, have a look at his giveaway to takeaway ratio, but doesn't have the wheels to cover the kind of space needed to be a big plus penalty killer

results will dictate who gets paid first. Unless anyone has ridiculous results, expect to see more Hyman/Brown type cap hits, which is great for good supplemental players

 

[Jeypic]

subsequent moves that lock up rosters spots would make it less flexible, those haven't happened yet so it's still wide open

I could see Bozak back, that would still leave 5 guys capable of being regular penalty killers, so again doesn't look like a prerequisite to getting a roster spot

Not likely that Bracco and Leivo play the same role, more likely that Grundstrom/Korshkov would take Leivo's as LW's that can play in the dirty areas. Bracco is just a RW and more of a perimeter player. But if Leivo turns out, there's not much incentive to move on from him that quickly, especially when he'll be cheap - money is one of the primary reasons to keep a guy like this around until they get expensive - that would only be after next year if he explodes for an allstar type season then he turns into a core piece.

Kapanen really didn't do much adapting, he had the tools to play a PK role with his speed so he gets used that way. Again Leivo is a very good defensive player, have a look at his giveaway to takeaway ratio, but doesn't have the wheels to cover the kind of space needed to be a big plus penalty killer

results will dictate who gets paid first. Unless anyone has ridiculous results, expect to see more Hyman/Brown type cap hits, which is great for good supplemental players

kapanen did adapt. He never used to play the penalty kill. He was a speedy skilled timid winger when we first acquired him. He’s even noted in interviews the skill in the lineup above him and the need for him to adapt.

Look.. at one point matt Martin was considered a skill guy. He adapted. Because as you move up.. your skill by itself is not good enough to make the team unless you are absolutely elite.

That is why it’s been hard for leivo. That is why it will be hard for bracco if he doesn’t adapt. Unless you’re like a top ten pick.. you gotta work on rounding out your game. Hell even if you are.. nhl is no joke.

I’m a big fan of leivo. And I agree with your analysis on him. However he will also add to the logjam of powerplay wingers bracco has to climb over in the depth charts to make the team.

 

[MyBudJT]

He’s bringing Johnson into this because they are both comparables. Grundstrom is getting praise because he’s putting up points for a style that involves more aggressive forecheck and should be more translatable to the NHL.

Developmentally wise, khl is equal to shl. Both produce prospects that make and don’t make the nhl. Khl does make it harder for u23 prospects to grab top line minutes. Granted korshkov’s production is decent considering he does not play to p line minutes, but he is turning 22.

I think him not getting top six minutes is a bigger problem than the coaching.

Package? Korshkov is more of a skilled guy, but he’s not a top line player. He may fit on the 2nd line. The last time I watched him, he was easy to knock off the puck and he did not look like s puck possession beast. He has good positioning on the pk, but I would say he’s behind brown, Hyman, komarov (I rather not see him re-signed) in terms of defensive acumen. Higher ceiling in skill, but the sentiment in this thread should be tempered.

I’ll admit I have never seen grundstrom play in the shl, but he sounds like a possession driver and strong forechecker. He should have the higher floor and has more primary points than korshkov which bodes well for his transition to the nhl.

I'm not saying one is better than the other... I favour Korshkov, and think he's underrated here... I was just trying to bring some Korshkov awareness to these boards... is this not allowed?

Then somehow Johnsson gets thrown into a 'debate'... Thats what I didn't understand. Even then, Johnsson hasn't proved anything yet either. I like him, but lets be real... we don't know whether he'll be a dime-a-dozen NHLer or something more... Johnsson and Grundstrom also play two totally different styles... Other than being LW Swedes, I don't see a comparison.

Lokomotiv's did have coaching problems, and were more successful once a new staff came in.... I was just providing context here...
Korshkov pre coaching change: 1G, 3P in 17GP
Korshkov post coaching change: 7G, 23P in 35GP <- Similar PPG production as Grundstrom in a more difficult league.

Korshkov finished 5th (3rd among F) on the team in Points, despite being 16th in TOI/G (8th among F), but was arguably Lokomotivs most productive player under the new coaching regime.

Of the players that finished ahead of Korshkov in Points:

D - Steffan Kronwall Post Coaching Change: 7G, 19P in 38GP
D - Jakob Nakladal Post Coaching Change: 6G, 18P in 37GP
F - Brandon Kozun Post Coaching Change: 9G, 22P in 36GP
F - Petri Kontiola Post Coaching Change: 7G, 19P in 35GP

And yes, I prefer Korshkov's package. Not to get confused with saying Korshkov is the better player than Grundstrom... But Korskov is bigger, faster, more skilled. From my viewings, he's strong on the puck... but we'll see how he translates to the NA game...

PS. I find it funny how you try to twist Korshkov's age and use it as a fault... He's not 22, and he won't be until July... its like saying "Grundstrom is turning 21...".

 

[nuck]

1) Why are you bringing Johnsson into this? He hasn't proven anything yet, really...
2) KHL > SHL... so although Korshkov has produced less, I'd say what he's done is more impressive.
3) Korshkov had a slow start to the season, largely because of poor coaching

I think Grundstrom has the extra interest around here becuase of his exceptional AHL playoff performance last year, but I think Leafs fans will be pleasently surprised with Korshkov... I'm not saying Korshkov is significantly better, they're probably in the same tier... I just prefer Korshkov's package a bit more...

I mentioned Johnsson only to bring context to Grundstrom's 19 year old production in the Swedish league. His goal scoring is exceptional for a 19 year old in that league, irrespective of his playing style. AJ is the best prospect in the Leafs system not currently in the NHL and if Grundy produces like him at the same age thats a strong positive.

KHL is at best equal to the Swedish league or the AHL. They will have their stars like Kovy or Radulov that could step into the NHL and really perform but unless you cherry pick their all stars the general talent level is not too spectacular. Consider the top 3 scorers on Korshkovs team were all unsuccessful former members of the Leafs system. Kozun was a top 10 scorer in the K last season and was never that good in the AHL and that isnt a fluke. Dawes and DaCosta are other AHL guys that found the K easier, and Kontiola could not do anything in the AHL. Its not a more difficult league, its just different.

I wasn't aware of the post coaching change split for Korshkov, thats good to know. Even with the slow start he is producing a lot more assists than CG as well

 

[MyBudJT]

I mentioned Johnsson only to bring context to Grundstrom's 19 year old production in the Swedish league. His goal scoring is exceptional for a 19 year old in that league, irrespective of his playing style. AJ is the best prospect in the Leafs system not currently in the NHL and if Grundy produces like him at the same age thats a strong positive.

KHL is at best equal to the Swedish league or the AHL. They will have their stars like Kovy or Radulov that could step into the NHL and really perform but unless you cherry pick their all stars the general talent level is not too spectacular. Consider the top 3 scorers on Korshkovs team were all unsuccessful former members of the Leafs system. Kozun was a top 10 scorer in the K last season and was never that good in the AHL and that isnt a fluke. Dawes and DaCosta are other AHL guys that found the K easier, and Kontiola could not do anything in the AHL. Its not a more difficult league, its just different.

I wasn't aware of the post coaching change split for Korshkov, thats good to know. Even with the slow start he is producing a lot more assists than CG as well

Unless things have changed in recent years, the general consensus is that the KHL is easily the 2nd best league in the world. Surprised others think otherwise...