Prospect Info: Prospect and Marlies Thread: 2017 - 2018 (continued) Part II

[Martin Skoula]

How does Korshkov compare to Nichushkin?

 

[Randy Randerson]

kapanen did adapt. He never used to play the penalty kill. He was a speedy skilled timid winger when we first acquired him. He’s even noted in interviews the skill in the lineup above him and the need for him to adapt.

Look.. at one point matt Martin was considered a skill guy. He adapted. Because as you move up.. your skill by itself is not good enough to make the team unless you are absolutely elite.

That is why it’s been hard for leivo. That is why it will be hard for bracco if he doesn’t adapt. Unless you’re like a top ten pick.. you gotta work on rounding out your game. Hell even if you are.. nhl is no joke.

I’m a big fan of leivo. And I agree with your analysis on him. However he will also add to the logjam of powerplay wingers bracco has to climb over in the depth charts to make the team.

Kapanen got PK usage, predicated by having the skillset to do so, and emerged as a capable penalty killer. Leivo probably doesn't have the foot speed to do that, Bracco might overcome serious defensive shortcomings to be a capable 5v5 player but it's very hard to see him being a regular penalty killer. Don't judge the aptitude of a fish by how well it climbs a tree

there is an absolute boatload of players in the NHL who are there because of their talent, and who fall well short of elite

The only thing that's been hard for Leivo is not getting put in the lineup, he's earned a better fate

Matt Martin was never a skill guy in the NHL, he's never broken 20 pts. He was, and is, a tough guy who was good enough at hockey to survive the exodus of the enforcer role from the NHL. Also seems sorta crazy that anyone would try to adapt downwards on the pantheon of talent

That's a fair point on Leivo being part of a logjam, that's a good problem. He and Bracco are not going to be penalty killers in the NHL, they'll make it on their offense if they do (and in Leivo's case, his huge positive impact on possession). Luckily we're going to need 5v5 & PP personnel too

and I'll disagree on the idea that you need to be a top 10 pick to make it in the NHL without a great 2 way game, there are tons of examples: Hoffman, Neal, Palmieri, Miller, Namestnikov, Debrincat, Rackell, Spooner, etc etc. There's a couple of those guys on pretty much every team, so that is a very faulty premise - I agree that it helps if you can do everything, but it's not a requirement

 

[Jeypic]

Kapanen got PK usage, predicated by having the skillset to do so, and emerged as a capable penalty killer. Leivo probably doesn't have the foot speed to do that, Bracco might overcome serious defensive shortcomings to be a capable 5v5 player but it's very hard to see him being a regular penalty killer. Don't judge the aptitude of a fish by how well it climbs a tree

there is an absolute boatload of players in the NHL who are there because of their talent, and who fall well short of elite

The only thing that's been hard for Leivo is not getting put in the lineup, he's earned a better fate

Matt Martin was never a skill guy in the NHL, he's never broken 20 pts. He was, and is, a tough guy who was good enough at hockey to survive the exodus of the enforcer role from the NHL. Also seems sorta crazy that anyone would try to adapt downwards on the pantheon of talent

That's a fair point on Leivo being part of a logjam, that's a good problem. He and Bracco are not going to be penalty killers in the NHL, they'll make it on their offense if they do (and in Leivo's case, his huge positive impact on possession). Luckily we're going to need 5v5 & PP personnel too

and I'll disagree on the idea that you need to be a top 10 pick to make it in the NHL without a great 2 way game, there are tons of examples: Hoffman, Neal, Palmieri, Miller, Namestnikov, Debrincat, Rackell, Spooner, etc etc. There's a couple of those guys on pretty much every team, so that is a very faulty premise - I agree that it helps if you can do everything, but it's not a requirement

Lol I’m done with this. All I was trying to do was point out we are stacked with powerplay specialists, lacking penalty killers, and it’s going to be hard for bracco to make the team cuz he’s basically a shittier marner who brings nothing else to the table so we’ll just play Mitch instead. Thanks. Agree to disagree... or more likely just stop arguing for the sake of it.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Lol I’m done with this. All I was trying to do was point out we are stacked with powerplay specialists, lacking penalty killers, and it’s going to be hard for bracco to make the team cuz he’s basically a ****tier marner who brings nothing else to the table so we’ll just play Mitch instead. Thanks. Agree to disagree... or more likely just stop arguing for the sake of it.

that's fine, I don't agree with some of your assumptions. We're not stacked with PP guys given that there's a good chance we're losing 2 this offseason, we're not lacking penalty killers with a top 5 PK in the league that's losing 1 guy next year, a poor man's Marner is still a hell of a player

so we can agree to disagree, but this has been less arguing for the sake of it and more that I don't think your position here holds up. We'll see what the future holds for Leivo & Bracco

 

[saltming]

Unless things have changed in recent years, the general consensus is that the KHL is easily the 2nd best league in the world. Surprised others think otherwise...

I'm pretty sure about the consensus on the khl but everyone can have an opinion.

Also I'm with you on the Korshkov train. Big fan with high hopes for him.

 

[Jeypic]

that's fine, I don't agree with some of your assumptions. We're not stacked with PP guys given that there's a good chance we're losing 2 this offseason, we're not lacking penalty killers with a top 5 PK in the league that's losing 1 guys next year, a poor man's Marner is still a hell of a player

so we can agree to disagree, but this has been less arguing for the sake of it and more that that I don't think your position here holds up. We'll see what the future holds for Leivo & Bracco

Yeh I’m telling you to look at the present situation (leivo) for clues to the future situation (bracco).

I’m also making a fundamental point in how, as leagues progress, the lesser of the skilled guys need to adapt or get left behind. Disagree all you like, you’re wrong. Even if bracco does make it.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Yeh I’m telling you to look at the present situation (leivo) for clues to the future situation (bracco).

I’m also making a fundamental point in how, as leagues progress, the lesser of the skilled guys need to adapt or get left behind. Disagree all you like, you’re wrong. Even if bracco does make it.

Leivo and Bracco are not at all the same player, and if they were the situations around them are unlikely to be because they'll be at different points in time.

these "lesser of the skilled" guys both have it within their ceilings to be in the top 25% of NHL forwards, being lesser skilled than the elite echelon of skill still leaves plenty of room for guys to make it on the things they do well, rather than try to make it at something they don't do well. If you're saying that you have to be a franchise ceiling player to not resign yourself to being a penalty killer, it's very funny that you think I'm the one that's wrong

 

[Jeypic]

Leivo and Bracco are not at all the same player, and if they were the situations around them are unlikely to be because they'll be at different points in time.

these "lesser of the skilled" guys both have it within their ceilings to be in the top 25% of NHL forwards, being lesser skilled than the elite echelon of skill still leaves plenty of room for guys to make it on the things they do well, rather than try to make it at something they don't do well. If you're saying that you have to be a franchise ceiling player to not resign yourself to being a penalty killer, it's very funny that you think I'm the one that's wrong

If you can’t see that leivo and bracco are both less then elite offensive wingers who excel on the powerplay you are way to dense for this conversation. That is the only relevant similarity i am drawing.

If you can’t see the added challenge for these less then elite offensive players to make a team filled with elite offensive players you’re even denser. Especially when their are other less then elite offensive players willing to adapt their game ie kapanen.

Of course they can make the nhl, or even the leafs. Leivo has been going through that process for 3 years. If bracco can adapt his game to fit the rigours of the nhl, he can too. But he won’t be a leaf as an offensive timid perimeter player who doesn’t try on defense.

 

[Randy Randerson]

If you can’t see that leivo and bracco are both less then elite offensive wingers who excel on the powerplay you are way to dense for this conversation. That is the only relevant similarity i am drawing.

If you can’t see the added challenge for these less then elite offensive players to make a team filled with elite offensive players you’re even denser. Especially when their are other less then elite offensive players willing to adapt their game ie kapanen.

Of course they can make the nhl, or even the leafs. Leivo has been going through that process for 3 years. If bracco can adapt his game to fit the rigours of the nhl, he can too. But he won’t be a leaf as an offensive timid perimeter player who doesn’t try on defense.

if you think that we're going to have a team that's full to the brim of elite players, you're going to be very disappointed. Everyone is going to need to compete to make a team that's deep, they only need to be better than the lowest rung of that ladder.

You're moving the goalposts on Bracco from "needs to be a pk'er" to needs to be competent defensively, and he's made big strides that way already.

Leivo has been given 2 contracts by a regime that didn't draft him, was protected in expansion, wasn't immediately dealt when he started a media distraction on a team that immediately loaned the only other guy who has done the same to get him away from the team, has been kept from waivers all year, and was chosen over the other guy the most recent time that a contract crunch forced the brass's hand into making a move. If you think they would do that for a career 13th forward, good on you.

resorting to name calling is petty, your positions should be defensible or you need to change your positions.

 

[Jeypic]

if you think that we're going to have a team that's full to the brim of elite players, you're going to be very disappointed. Everyone is going to need to compete to make a team that's deep, they only need to be better than the lowest rung of that ladder.

You're moving the goalposts on Bracco from "needs to be a pk'er" to needs to be competent defensively, and he's made big strides that way already.

Leivo has been given 2 contracts by a regime that didn't draft him, was protected in expansion, wasn't immediately dealt when he started a media distraction on a team that immediately loaned the only other guy who has done the same to get him away from the team, has been kept from waivers all year, and was chosen over the other guy the most recent time that a contract crunch forced the brass's hand into making a move. If you think they would do that for a career 13th forward, good on you.

resorting to name calling is petty, your positions should be defensible or you need to change your positions.

Lol dude you’ve ignored my fundamental position this whole argument and just focused on nitpicking semantics.

Here it is.

“Bracco needs to adapt his game to be effective at the nhl level. Leivo has had a tough time cracking our lineup.”

Argue that.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Lol dude you’ve ignored my fundamental position this whole argument and just focused on nitpicking semantics.

Here it is.

“Bracco needs to adapt his game to be effective at the nhl level. Leivo has had a tough time cracking our lineup.”

Argue that.

Bracco needed to make big defensive improvements to have a real shot in the NHL, if that had been your position then I wouldn't have disagreed in the first place, it was the "he needs to be good enough to PK" stance that doesn't hold water.

 

[Jeypic]

Bracco needed to make big defensive improvements to have a real shot in the NHL, if that had been your position then I wouldn't have disagreed in the first place, it was the "he needs to be good enough to PK" stance that doesn't hold water.

It does with our current team. Just look at leivos usage do to not playing the penalty kill. Now if you want to suggest our team gets a lot worse offensively in the future and that bracco gets better both offensively and defensively... then sure. But that’s suggesting a lot.

I didn’t say he needed to be a pker to make any team. Just ours as it’s made up right now.

 

[Randy Randerson]

It does with our current team. Just look at leivos usage do to not playing the penalty kill. Now if you want to suggest our team gets a lot worse offensively in the future and that bracco gets better both offensively and defensively... then sure. But that’s suggesting a lot.

I didn’t say he needed to be a pker to make any team. Just ours as it’s made up right now.

and again I'll disagree with that premise. Would it be helpful for their chances if they could PK? sure, but you only need 4 regular PK forwards and a couple more who can when called upon, so out of 12 there needs to be 5-6 in the lineup who can and 4 who specialize: Hyman, Brown & Kapanen fill 3 of the 4, then we have both bottom 6 center spots and a winger vacancy that could be filled by Johnsson/Grundstrom who can both kill penalties...there really isn't much opening for PK forwards

We're likely to lose 2 forwards who don't PK this year, and another one next year, plus the chance that Nylander and/or Hyman move into spots that open top 6 wing positions. We won't be short of opportunity for offensive wingers

If you're looking for a reason for sacrifices being made to keep Leivo around...including dealing PK capable Soshnikov...I'd look towards JVR's impending vacancy

So if you want to say that Bracco/Leivo being able to kill penalties would help their chances, I'd agree. I don't think "need" is the right word.

 

[LeafChief]

@Randy Randerson couldn't be more right in this back and forth.

 

[Jeypic]

and again I'll disagree with that premise. Would it be helpful for their chances if they could PK? sure, but you only need 4 regular PK forwards and a couple more who can when called upon, so out of 12 there needs to be 5-6 in the lineup who can and 4 who specialize: Hyman, Brown & Kapanen fill 3 of the 4, then we have both bottom 6 center spots and a winger vacancy that could be filled by Johnsson/Grundstrom who can both kill penalties...there really isn't much opening for PK forwards

We're likely to lose 2 forwards who don't PK this year, and another one next year, plus the chance that Nylander and/or Hyman move into spots that open top 6 wing positions. We won't be short of opportunity for offensive wingers

If you're looking for a reason for sacrifices being made to keep Leivo around...including dealing PK capable Soshnikov...I'd look towards JVR's impending vacancy

So if you want to say that Bracco/Leivo being able to kill penalties would help their chances, I'd agree. I don't think "need" is the right word.

For sure man. You can look in your crystal ball and I will look in mine. In yours we don’t acquire guys like marleau ever I’m sure... we have to make room for the tweeners like bracco. Sometimes I speak in hyperbole on here to make points... my point was that bracco needs a lot of work still. Which has been the case since we drafted him. Next time i’ll add a “pretty much” in front of my “need” and you can leave me alone.

 

[Barilko14]

Imo, we have an elite goal scoring C, who at some point will be losing his talented RW (Nylander move to C).

If Kadri and Marner continue to be a good duo, I think Nylander and Kappy would make a good pair, that eventually opens up a spot next to Matthews.

Seems like our best playmaking prospect (who happens to be a RW) could find a home there.

I really think the goal of our player development crew is to graduate reliable two-way players.

Kappy could have been playing in the NHL for the last couple of years, but he would have been a purely offensive player.

Obviously everything has to go right for Bracco to become Matthews RW, and odds are against it happening, but I find Bracco a pretty interesting case study to follow, and hope our staff can develop him. Next year will be a better indication of his future.

 

[Randy Randerson]

For sure man. You can look in your crystal ball and I will look in mine. In yours we don’t acquire guys like marleau ever I’m sure... we have to make room for the tweeners like bracco. Sometimes I speak in hyperbole on here to make points... my point was that bracco needs a lot of work still. Which has been the case since we drafted him. Next time i’ll add a “pretty much” in front of my “need” and you can leave me alone.

in mine we let guys take spots out of the system if they earn them. I'm not endowing Bracco with a future roster spot by any means, but there's no need to write him off either. In the scenario that he makes it, there's overwhelming odds that he's never a PK type forward and that his offense is what carries him

really, just backing off the PK idea way back at the start of this and saying something like "I mean to say that Bracco needs defensive work before he gets real consideration for an NHL spot" would have been met with a "fair enough, I agree". If you'd adjusted your position or identified it as hyperbole at the outset, we wouldn't be here. I can only take you at face value for the things you post

 

[Boutette]

For sure man. You can look in your crystal ball and I will look in mine. In yours we don’t acquire guys like marleau ever I’m sure... we have to make room for the tweeners like bracco

Marleau is, for the life of his contract a 40pt winger, his best years behind him, primarily hired to provide offense, who is right now the most expensive player on the team, taking up 6.5 million in cap space. Is that what you think this team desperately needs, slightly above average players in the twilight of their careers picked up on gold-plated retirement contracts? Or might that money be better spent in areas of actual need, as we have a wealth of young wingers ready and able to step into his $$$$ skates at a fraction of the price.

 

[Boutette]

Imo, we have an elite goal scoring C, who at some point will be losing his talented RW (Nylander move to C).

If Kadri and Marner continue to be a good duo, I think Nylander and Kappy would make a good pair, that eventually opens up a spot next to Matthews.

Seems like our best playmaking prospect (who happens to be a RW) could find a home there.

I really think the goal of our player development crew is to graduate reliable two-way players.

Kappy could have been playing in the NHL for the last couple of years, but he would have been a purely offensive player.

Obviously everything has to go right for Bracco to become Matthews RW, and odds are against it happening, but I find Bracco a pretty interesting case study to follow, and hope our staff can develop him. Next year will be a better indication of his future.

And despite being labelled a timid perimeter player with only a PP upside, for the Marlies Bracco's has managed .5pts a game with unskilled players primarly as his line mates and as many SH as PP points. People should do some research before they right players off and gush over paying out $6.5 mil a year retirement contracts in the cap era for aging wingers when the wings are in fact where we have the greatest depth positionally.

 

[Jeypic]

Marleau is, for the life of his contract a 40pt winger, his best years behind him, primarily hired to provide offense, who is right now the most expensive player on the team, taking up 6.5 million in cap space. Is that what you think this team desperately needs, slightly above average players in the twilight of their careers picked up on gold-plated retirement contracts? Or might that money be better spent in areas of actual need, as we have a wealth of young wingers ready and able to step into his $$$$ skates at a fraction of the price.

i didn’t sign him, the leafs did. Because they are constantly trying to improve. Whether you or me agree with the signing is mute. It happened. And I’m sure If they felt there is a better free agent on the market that suits our teams needs more then what bracco is projecting to be.. I’m sure we would do it again.

I’m not expecting to win this argument on the leafs board of hockey’s future in the prospect thread but I stand by my point.

Sorry if I offended any of you or your favourite prospect.. I am a leaf fan too. I hope the best for bracco, he seems like a good kid. And he’s got outside potential to be great imo. And I want leivo on the team next year too.. as much a fan of jvr as I am.

Unfortunately I’m a realist.. and doubt their is room for all of them.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I wouldn't be shocked if Bracco ends up being Matthews' RWer and tears it up. His passing and skating are fantastic. It just depends how he does in other areas of the game

 

[Jeypic]

in mine we let guys take spots out of the system if they earn them. I'm not endowing Bracco with a future roster spot by any means, but there's no need to write him off either. In the scenario that he makes it, there's overwhelming odds that he's never a PK type forward and that his offense is what carries him

really, just backing off the PK idea way back at the start of this and saying something like "I mean to say that Bracco needs defensive work before he gets real consideration for an NHL spot" would have been met with a "fair enough, I agree". If you'd adjusted your position or identified it as hyperbole at the outset, we wouldn't be here. I can only take you at face value for the things you post

So in yours, we wouldn’t have signed marleau last year so that we could play leivo instead. Gotcha.. your crystal ball is broken.

 

[Boutette]

i didn’t sign him, the leafs did. Because they are constantly trying to improve. Whether you or me agree with the signing is mute. It happened. And I’m sure If they felt there is a better free agent on the market that suits our teams needs more then what bracco is projecting to be.. I’m sure we would do it again.

I’m not expecting to win this argument on the leafs board of hockey’s future in the prospect thread but I stand by my point.

Sorry if I offended any of you or your favourite prospect.. I am a leaf fan too. I hope the best for bracco, he seems like a good kid. And he’s got outside potential to be great imo. And I want leivo on the team next year too.. as much a fan of jvr as I am.

Unfortunately I’m a realist.. and doubt their is room for all of them.

I'm just pointing out facts not feelings. And the fact is each and every team in this has a maximum amount of money they can spend, which does require careful management of resources, not deciding, hey, it feels good to go and pay top dollar for a veteran that we've always wanted in the blue and white. Does it make sense to you to pay out $6.5 million dollars of your cap for a 40pt winger in a zero sum cap era in in a position where your depth is strongest while not spending that money to upgrade/shore up where your depth is weakest? Unfortunately, inefficiencies created by feelings like that often ending up costing teams in the short and long run given they only have a limited amount of money to spend on assets. Or you end up like say any team overburdened with underperforming overpaid vets and forced to jetison good younger players just to remain under the cap. That's not making a team better.

And of course, not all of them are going to make it. Over the next 2 years, maybe 3-4 spots on the wing will open up as veterans leave (Martin, Komorov, JVR, Marleau) and we've got a bunch of young wingers with various skill sets and sizes from the group fo Leivo, Kappanen, Johnsson, Marchment, Grundstrom, Korshkov, Bracco, Engvall etc. who could be pencilled in to replace them, possibly not as effectively to begin with, but also not eating up more than a fraction of the departing cap space while doing so while ensuring we can pay for our elite players (and therefore keep them) and likely add an elite defenseman/better bottom 6 centres in the bargain. That makes more sense than forking out big money for players whose best years are behind them, don't you think?

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

I'm just pointing out facts not feelings. And the fact is each and every team in this has a maximum amount of money they can spend, which does require careful management of resources, not deciding, hey, it feels good to go and pay top dollar for a veteran that we've always wanted in the blue and white. Does it make sense to you to pay out $6.5 million dollars of your cap for a 40pt winger in a zero sum cap era in in a position where your depth is strongest while not spending that money to upgrade/shore up where your depth is weakest? Unfortunately, inefficiencies created by feelings like that often ending up costing teams in the short and long run given they only have a limited amount of money to spend on assets. Or you end up like say any team overburdened with underperforming overpaid vets and forced to jetison good younger players just to remain under the cap. That's not making a team better.

Marleau is center depth for this team.

 

[Boutette]

Marleau is center depth for this team.

He's very expensive center depth.