Speculation: Potential Offseason Acquisitions

[JDinkalage Morgoone]

It will be better than we had in the season, but not a better one than we had in the playoffs. AND Kimmo is a year older. AND we had NO injuries to our D last year. When was the last time that happened?

IF Hextall wants to sit and wait for the kids, then yes, I hope they re-sign Kimmo to a 1 year cheap deal. But personally, I want at least 1 dman brought in that is better than Coburn and can play in both ends of the ice without us being scared to death

Who would that be?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Who would that be?

Someone we would have to pay so much for it would make us vomit.

 

[JDinkalage Morgoone]

Someone we would have to pay so much for it would make us vomit.

Yeah exactly what I was gonna say.

 

[Tripod]

Who would that be?

not allowed to suggest anyone because people freak out that won't have 3 lines that can score...only 2 lines and 2/3rds.

It is all under the "fix the defense" thread.

Crazy that how our team is set up, that people STILL want more offensive forwards. Use some forwards to add some GOOD D, THEN look to add some cheap F that slip thru the cracks like Raymond did last year.

Edit:So really...every on here just wants to wait it out for 2-3 years until the kids are HOPEFULLY ready to handle top 4 minutes. And if the peak at Luke Schenn level, then what? Then we wasted 2-3 years of Giroux's peak, Couts bridge contract, Maybe Schenn's too, and now Voracek, L.Schenn and Coburn are all UFA's and potentially gone. So we could have 3 guys at Schenn's level, Streit and MacD.

I just think that IF we can get a GOOD, YOUNG D on a good contact who is better than Coburn, then do it.

So I ask, what would you all do?

 

[Curufinwe]

I wouldn't trade Voracek, that's for damn sure. I would go with what we have and let Alt and Ghost get promoted if their play in the AHL warrants it.

 

[flyershockey]

not allowed to suggest anyone because people freak out that won't have 3 lines that can score...only 2 lines and 2/3rds.

It is all under the "fix the defense" thread.

Crazy that how our team is set up, that people STILL want more offensive forwards. Use some forwards to add some GOOD D, THEN look to add some cheap F that slip thru the cracks like Raymond did last year.

Edit:So really...every on here just wants to wait it out for 2-3 years until the kids are HOPEFULLY ready to handle top 4 minutes. And if the peak at Luke Schenn level, then what? Then we wasted 2-3 years of Giroux's peak, Couts bridge contract, Maybe Schenn's too, and now Voracek, L.Schenn and Coburn are all UFA's and potentially gone. So we could have 3 guys at Schenn's level, Streit and MacD.

I just think that IF we can get a GOOD, YOUNG D on a good contact who is better than Coburn, then do it.

So I ask, what would you all do?

What young defenseman would you add at the expense of some of the forwards? Which ones would realistically help?

Let's assume for a minute that guys like Pietrangelo, Weber, Subban, etc. are off the table, because realistically, they are. There's not a team in the league that has a guy at that level that's going to trade him for anything short of Giroux. And that's not happening from a Flyers perspective.

So then you're left with trying to get a guy like Bogosian, Shattenkirk, Josi, Kulikov, Myers, etc. Those pieces would realistically cost something like Voracek+, Simmonds+, Couturier or Schenn++. Would a roster built around something like the one below really be that much better?

Raffl-Giroux-Simmonds
Hartnell-Schenn-Read
Akeson-Couturier-Vinny
Rasmussen-Laughton-Hall

Bogosian-Coburn
MacDonald-Streit
Grossmann-Schenn

Mason

This Flyers are already a team that struggles to produce offense consistently at 5 on 5. Taking away a piece like Voracek or Couturier is certainly not going to help in that regard, especially if your only getting a good top four defenseman back.

The last option is to explore UFA. Do you really want to play a guy like Niskanen 6+ million dollars a year just to be another middle pairing defenseman (something the Flyers defense is chock full of)? How about Boyle for 5 million? He's not an upgrade on Kimmo for that price tag. The UFA route is not the way to fix the defense. The Flyers have been overpaying for average talent for years by going that route. We routinely have one of the most expensive defensive units in the league, yet they're constantly average at best.

The only real way to build a defense is by drafting the right guys and developing them. Then when they're ready you give them a shot. You deal with the ups and downs of injecting youth in to the lineup and you stick with them. That's the only way they're going to get better. By doing that, you keep the defense cost controlled as well. It's a hell of a lot easier to pay an RFA vesrus a UFA that you'll get the same production out of. That's pretty much how the best defenses have been built.

 

[Funf]

OK, let's say Giroux, Voracek, and Couturier are our most important forwards, who are likely untouchable in a trade.

After that, we have Read, Simmonds, and Schenn. Losing any one of these 3 would hurt. You trade Read, and you lose one of our best two-way forwards, and one of our best PKers. Simmonds is a very valuable PP player, and I think that's important. We're not a good 5 on 5 team, so we need our PP to be good.

Now, I'm not B. Schenn's biggest fan by any means, but he still has a lot of offensive upside, and trading him just to trade him is not a good idea. You don't know what kind of player he's going to be down the road, so moving him in any way is a big gamble.

That leaves Hartnell and Lecavalier, who both have NMCs, and likely hold very little value.

Speaking of value, you have to remember that this is a seller's market for defensemen, and that few to no teams are looking to shop impact defensemen. You have to look at it from the other their point of view. Trading a steady, two-way defensemen for a B level forward just doesn't make sense for anyone in the league, unless they're in DESPERATE need for scoring depth and have a surplus of d-men - which again, nobody really does. So you're not going to trade Simmonds or Read for for a player like Hjalmarsson or Muzzin. Neither Chicago or LA has any incentive to make a move like that. And how much better does that really make our defense? Does it compensate for the loss of 20~30 goals, and solid special teams play? I doubt it.

The best bet, if a trade is going to be made, is trading for a young project defensemen. You're still likely to overpay, and it puts us in the same boat as just waiting for our prospects to develop. It doesn't shore up anything in the short term, and is a major gamble long term, because, most likely, any team trading defensemen wants young players in return.

 

[Tripod]

What young defenseman would you add at the expense of some of the forwards? Which ones would realistically help?

Let's assume for a minute that guys like Pietrangelo, Weber, Subban, etc. are off the table, because realistically, they are. There's not a team in the league that has a guy at that level that's going to trade him for anything short of Giroux. And that's not happening from a Flyers perspective.

So then you're left with trying to get a guy like Bogosian, Shattenkirk, Josi, Kulikov, Myers, etc. Those pieces would realistically cost something like Voracek+, Simmonds+, Couturier or Schenn++ Would a roster built around something like the one below really be that much better?

Raffl-Giroux-Simmonds
Hartnell-Schenn-Read
Akeson-Couturier-Vinny
Rasmussen-Laughton-Hall

Bogosian-Coburn
MacDonald-Streit
Grossmann-Schenn

Mason

This Flyers are already a team that struggles to produce offense consistently at 5 on 5. Taking away a piece like Voracek or Couturier is certainly not going to help in that regard, especially if your only getting a good top four defenseman back.

The last option is to explore UFA. Do you really want to play a guy like Niskanen 6+ million dollars a year just to be another middle pairing defenseman (something the Flyers defense is chock full of)? How about Boyle for 5 million? He's not an upgrade on Kimmo for that price tag. The UFA route is not the way to fix the defense. The Flyers have been overpaying for average talent for years by going that route. We routinely have one of the most expensive defensive units in the league, yet they're constantly average at best.

The only real way to build a defense is by drafting the right guys and developing them. Then when they're ready you give them a shot. You deal with the ups and downs of injecting youth in to the lineup and you stick with them. That's the only way they're going to get better. By doing that, you keep the defense cost controlled as well. It's a hell of a lot easier to pay an RFA vesrus a UFA that you'll get the same production out of. That's pretty much how the best defenses have been built.

Go look at the thread on the top 25 dmen in the league. You will see the names Josi and Stattenkirk on most list. Are they elite guys? No. But they are top 30 guys. Trading a 1st line winger for a top 30 dman isn't a bad thing. And as I said before, I wouldn't trade them for "could be's" like Gardiner or even Bogosian.

And as well ALL know, finding a productive, cheaper forward UFA is much easier than a dman so trade for the dman, then fill the void from within or thru UFA.

Just think, say Kimmo retires:

Coburn MacD
Streit Grossmann
Schenn Alt(assuming he is ready)

Our ENTIRE top 4 is being asked to play above their ability. Then we get to hope that we have "good Schenn" this year while being paired with a rookie. Or:

Josi Coburn
MacD Shatty
Streit Schenn

Only Josi is out of place as the defacto #1 but he is a #2 now AND top 30 d-man. AND we also have a top 30 dman on the 2nd pairing now.

And yes...we have to trade some good young players. But we are getting good young players back...not "hopefulls"

NOW, we don't have to rush any of the kids. If 1 is ready after next year, move Schenn if need be. In 2 years, Schenn and Coburns spots are open AND AT WORST, we could move Shatty to the 1st pair to replace Coburn and then we ONLY need 1 to be a 2nd pairing and another a 3rd pairing. And if we get lucky and get 3 guys who ALL are ready AND too good for the AHL, then you move Streit in 2 years.

I want the kids to have to PUSH other guys out because they are too good. I don't want us COUNTING on them reaching their highest level just to replace roster spots.

Edit:in past threads, discussion of Josi for Simmonds or Voracek have had fans thinking they are fair in value, but wouldn't do it because of wanting to keep our "own guys". With Jones playing so well at the WHC, Josi "could" be available and with Lavi there, he could push for a former Flyer or 2.

Also in another thread, I mentioned Voracek + Schenn for Josi and Wilson. Hate to lose Jake, but this gives us a top 25 Dman. Also, don't be surprised if Jake is hard to re-sign. Both of his last 2 contracts were a bit of a struggle.

So am I correct that everyone else just wants to wait for 2-3 years and HOPE the kids pan out? And then HOPE that Voracek, Raffl, Coburn and Schenn all re-sign as UFA's AND HOPE that Schenn and Couts don't look to break the bank too?

 

[flyershockey]

Go look at the thread on the top 25 dmen in the league. You will see the names Josi and Stattenkirk on most list. Are they elite guys? No. But they are top 30 guys. Trading a 1st line winger for a top 30 dman isn't a bad thing. And as I said before, I wouldn't trade them for "could be's" like Gardiner or even Bogosian.

And as well ALL know, finding a productive, cheaper forward UFA is much easier than a dman so trade for the dman, then fill the void from within or thru UFA.

Just think, say Kimmo retires:

Coburn MacD
Streit Grossmann
Schenn Alt(assuming he is ready)

Our ENTIRE top 4 is being asked to play above their ability. Then we get to hope that we have "good Schenn" this year while being paired with a rookie. Or:

Josi Coburn
MacD Shatty
Streit Schenn

Only Josi is out of place as the defacto #1 but he is a #2 now AND top 30 d-man. AND we also have a top 30 dman on the 2nd pairing now.

And yes...we have to trade some good young players. But we are getting good young players back.

NOW, we don't have to rush any of the kids. If 1 is ready after next year, move Schenn if need be. In 2 years, Schenn and Coburns spots are open AND AT WORST, we could move Shatty to the 1st pair to replace Coburn and then we ONLY need 1 to be a 2nd pairing and another a 3rd pairing. And if we get lucky and get 3 guys who ALL are ready AND too good for the AHL, then you move Streit in 2 years.

I want the kids to have to PUSH other guys out because they are too good. I don't want us COUNTING on them reaching their highest level just to replace roster spots.

I saw the lists. Shattenkirk and Josi aren't top 25 defenseman, no matter how many times you repeat it. They both play in favorable situations that prop them up to something they're not.

Trading for just one of them does nothing to really improve the defense. Trading for both of them would absolutely gut the offense.

Shattenkirk - Couturier (that's what they would ask for)
Josi - Voracek (that's what they would ask for)

Raffl-Giroux-Simmonds
Hartnell-Schenn-Read
Akeson-Laughton-XXX
Rasmussen-Hall-Rinaldo

Josi-Coburn
MacDonald-Shattenkirk
Streit-Schenn

That is not a better team for the trades. We'd have a pretty good defense and no offense to speak of. Congratulations, you just became the Nashville Predators with a slightly better offense and a worse defense. I hope Giroux enjoys trying to do everything himself.

Edit: It's not that easy to find cheap, productive forwards in UFA. Mason Raymond is an example, but he was a total wildcard coming off a serious injury. He's going to get paid this year. Guys like Vinny, Clarkson and Clowe are the typical overpayments that you see in UFA for productive forwards.

 

[flyershockey]

Also. Guys I would take over Josi and Shattenkirk:

1. McDonagh
2. Staal
3. Keith
4. Seabrook
5. Hjalmarsson
6. Doughty
7. Subban
8. Suter
9. E. Johnson
10. Hedman
11. Weber
12. Jones
13. Pietrangelo
14. Bouwmeester
15. Fowler
16. OEL
17. Yandle
18. Chara
19. Letang
20. Trouba
21. Karlsson
22. A. Greene
23. J. Faulk
24. Kronwall
25. Phaneuf
26. Vlasic
27. Giordano
28. R. Murray

There's 28 right there without putting much thought into it. I'm sure there are a couple of others that are at least debatable.

 

[DaftCaptain]

Flyers can go after Dan Cleary Again!

 

[AFTeRMaTH*]

Who's the oldest most washed up star of the past that's a free agent???
That's who we will sign.

 

[JDinkalage Morgoone]

Who's the oldest most washed up star of the past that's a free agent???
That's who we will sign.

What's an example of the Flyers doing that in the last few years?

 

[JDinkalage Morgoone]

I also think that if Shattenkirk is moved, he will underwhelm when he's not playing in St. Louis.

 

[Tripod]

Also. Guys I would take over Josi and Shattenkirk:

1. McDonagh
2. Staal
3. Keith
4. Seabrook
5. Hjalmarsson
6. Doughty
7. Subban
8. Suter
9. E. Johnson
10. Hedman
11. Weber
12. Jones
13. Pietrangelo
14. Bouwmeester
15. Fowler
16. OEL
17. Yandle
18. Chara
19. Letang
20. Trouba
21. Karlsson
22. A. Greene
23. J. Faulk
24. Kronwall
25. Phaneuf
26. Vlasic
27. Giordano
28. R. Murray

There's 28 right there without putting much thought into it. I'm sure there are a couple of others that are at least debatable.

ok..you win...let's just sit with our fingers crossed and hope for the best!

 

[Jray42]

What's an example of the Flyers doing that in the last few years?

Vincent Lecavalier.

 

[Beef Invictus]

It's hard for me to remember that with a new GM comes new habits. Part of me just waits for the next Gill/Lilja/Slug signings to put garbage in front of our D prospects and maybe a 7 year contract to Cammy. But we really shouldn't expect that from Hextall until he actually starts doing it.

 

[Stizzle]

What's an example of the Flyers doing that in the last few years?

Vinny, obviously. Also, Dan Cleary. Homer tried to give him 3 freaking years at good money. That would have been a disaster.

 

[Flyerss]

Also. Guys I would take over Josi and Shattenkirk:

1. McDonagh
2. Staal
3. Keith
4. Seabrook
5. Hjalmarsson
6. Doughty
7. Subban
8. Suter
9. E. Johnson
10. Hedman
11. Weber
12. Jones
13. Pietrangelo
14. Bouwmeester
15. Fowler
16. OEL
17. Yandle
18. Chara
19. Letang
20. Trouba
21. Karlsson
22. A. Greene
23. J. Faulk
24. Kronwall
25. Phaneuf
26. Vlasic
27. Giordano
28. R. Murray

There's 28 right there without putting much thought into it. I'm sure there are a couple of others that are at least debatable.

Roman Josi is definitely a Top20-30 Dman in NHL no doubt about it and i don't know how you can say Josi plays in favorable situations when he faces the 3rd toughest competition among Dman and only 14.1% of the Dman have a lower Off Zone Start % .

It's laughable to take 30 years old guys like Chara,Giordano,Bouwmeester,Grenne,Kronwall,Phaneuf over a young Dman .

 

[flyershockey]

Roman Josi is definitely a Top20-30 Dman in NHL no doubt about it and i don't know how you can say Josi plays in favorable situations when he faces the 3rd toughest competition among Dman and only 14.1% of the Dman have a lower Off Zone Start % .

It's laughable to take 30 years old guys like Chara,Giordano,Bouwmeester,Grenne,Kronwall,Phaneuf over a young Dman .

Ah yes, youth equals better. The list was for current defensemen, not who'll be better five years from now. It also helps that Josi plays on one of the best defensive units in the entire league. Josi is HF's newest young guy crush.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Ah yes, youth equals better. The list was for current defensemen, not who'll be better five years from now. It also helps that Josi plays on one of the best defensive units in the entire league. Josi is HF's newest young guy crush.

HFBoards policy: If you're over 30 years old you're useless.

 

[Striiker]

I don't want to see a single significant trade this offseason, and luckily I think Hextall is smart enough to not make any.

We're not becoming a legit contender by trading forward depth for defense. It may sound good in theory to some people but it's not a good move. What we would need to give up for any type of impact player would be far more expensive that it would be worth. We'd go from being a great offensive team with bad-decent defense to an average offensive team with decent defense.

 

[Random Forest]

Ah yes, youth equals better. The list was for current defensemen, not who'll be better five years from now. It also helps that Josi plays on one of the best defensive units in the entire league. Josi is HF's newest young guy crush.

So then why do you have Trouba, Jones, and Murray over him? Absolutely no way was Jones (or any of those three) better than Josi last season.

That's a pretty pathetic list, tbh. As far as ranking defenders right now, I take Josi ahead of Trouba, Jones, Murray, Faulk, Hjalmarsson, Staal, Yandle, Letang, Green, Phaneuf, and Vlasic.

Tied with EJohnson, Kronwall, and (maybe) Fowler.


Saying he's not in the top 20 right now is a monumental stretch.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Speaking of Yandle, I still have a healthy fear of acquiring him.

 

[ILoveStephanieBrown]

I don't want to see a single significant trade this offseason, and luckily I think Hextall is smart enough to not make any.

We're not becoming a legit contender by trading forward depth for defense. It may sound good in theory to some people but it's not a good move. What we would need to give up for any type of impact player would be far more expensive that it would be worth. We'd go from being a great offensive team with bad-decent defense to an average offensive team with decent defense.

This sums up my views as well. I trust Hextall to avoid the ''big splash'' moves and slowly but methodically improve the team over the course of time. It will make for some boring off seasons but if it means getting this team on the right track to future success, Im all for it. We'll finally be able to laugh at other organizations who make horrible trades and signings rather than vice versa.