Speculation: Potential Offseason Acquisitions

[Striiker]

He was perceived as a raw player, on the surface he was big bruising defensive defensemen with a potential growing offensive skills.

Sounds like Morin

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I was hoping you would describe Morin

It's actually pretty similar paths thus far with Morin actually out-producing him in terms of PPG in their draft & pre-draft years.

Morin
RS:
46GP 4G 12A 16P .35PPG
54GP 7G 24A 31GP .57PPG
PO:
6GP 1G 6A 7P 1.17PPG
11GP 4G 4A 8P .73PPG

Weber
RS:
70GP 2G 16A 18P .26PPG
60GP 12G 20A 32P .53PPG
PO:
19GP 1G 4A 5P .26PPG
17GP 3G 14A 17P 1.00PPG

 

[Striiker]

Well there you go, Morin is guaranteed to be better than Weber. The only question is how many cups will they win? 3? 5? 10?

 

[Tripod]

I don't think we have to wait until those prospects have reached their potential to compete. I think if in a year or two they can each make the team that their individual skill sets will really help the team, even if they're not fully developed yet. I 100% believe that having amazing defense and a #1D is unnecessary to win the cup, obviously it helps but it's not impossible to win without it.

Lets say, and hope, that next season all/most of the Flyers important forwards either stay the same (Giroux, Simmonds, Voracek, Read), or improve (Couturier, Schenn, and even Raffl), and Laughton can come in and make the 4th line semi decent. I don't think that's too far fetched, I doubt think any of them will do significantly worse than last season and Couts and Schenn improving seems pretty likely, so it's possible the forwards will be even better than last year.

Then hopefully Mason is able to play on par with how he did this past year, which is also pretty likely since I don't see any real reason why he would do worse, especially if the defense improves.

Defensively, simply getting rid of Grossmann and replacing him with someone who can skate and pass (Alt or Hagg) immediately makes the defense better because the main issue the D had all year was just quickly getting the puck out of the zone, so get rid of the guy who was the worst at that and the D improves overall. Other than that I'd have to wait and see what happens with Timonen because I'm not sure what he's planning to do, although if I had to guess I'd say he's going to retire. In that case maybe Streit and AMac both move up a pair and Gostisbehere is paired with Schenn on the 3rd, which I would be perfectly fine with. I have no clue how that would play out because Timonen has big shoes to fill but he had to leave eventually so why not get the young guys in as soon as possible to give them experience and help them improve next season. They're all young, but they're all very smart and mature players so I don't think it would be as hard for them to step in as some think. Hagg and Alt have both played against men before and did very well. Gostisbehere is smart and quick enough to make up for his physical shortcomings and he could probably help replace some of Timonens offense.

Does this set us up for a cup run next season? Probably not. But it helps show us what the team looks like with these young guys plugged in and it shows us what they can do by watching them play in the NHL. Then after next season see where we're at and evaluate if they look like they'll take too long to make an impact and if we're better off making the trades like you want.

Thank you for taking the time for a well thought out reply.

I agree with what you say on all the forwards. Most should continue to produce based on their age and upside. I just look at that defense and see that only Coburn can handle 1st line minutes. And even he often makes many mistakes. MacD has shown that he is very good when his minutes are not extended too far. Same with Streit. That leaves Gross and Schenn which we all agree are not top pairing guys.

And remember, we were VERY healthy last year on D. What happens if we have an injury or like like every other year? Then we likely miss the playoffs. But adding 1 D who is a top paring guy keeps all of MacD, Streit, Schenn and Grossmann off the top pair unless an injury...hopefully short term.

How many guys do we have that can play in a top 6 offensive role?
Hartnell, G, Voracek, Schenn, Simmonds, Read, Couts, and Vinny.
Trading 1 would not hurt us as we have a guy who can replace them in the top 6. Then we only have to find a 3rd line player as a replacement which is easy to do in free agency.

Personally, I would be looking for a trade where we trade 1D and 1F for 1D and 1F. Trade the better F for a better D and trade the lesser D for lesser F.
Example: Simmonds/Voracek and L.Schenn/Grossmann for Josi and Wilson.
It keeps our depth at each position, but makes the D better, but F worse....in theory.
Losing Jake or Simmer would suck. But we add our best dman and a 22 year old one on a great contract. He also put up 40 points from the D position. Wilson put up 33 and is 24 years old.
So we keep similar aged guys, replaced the points lost, and now are not asking EVERY dman to play above their ability that they have already shown they can't do.

We all say how Read can put up more points if he played in an offensive role. So move him into it. So now he goes from 40 point guy to 50 point guy. Move Schenn to the wing and move his minutes from under 16 to 19, and then his points go up.
Find a defensive player or 2 to take some of the hard minutes from Couts and Read.
Adding a Maholtra allows G not to take all the draws in the D zone...wining 59%. Imagine him and his skillset vs Rinaldo or Rosehill. Yet Maholtra was paid less than them.
We are using 2 offensive players on a shutdown line. And against some teams, it makes sense. But having a 4th line that can do some of that work would free up Read and Couts to develop more offensively.

I guess it's the fact that our other D have PROVEN they cannot handle 1st line minutes. So why put them in a position to fail. We all KNOW, any of the present D paired with Coburn will be exposed on a top pair.
With the deal above, we still have 9 guys who produced as top 9 scorers. We would have 3 1st line producers, 2 2nd line producers, and 4 3rd line producers. We would only need Couts to get 2 more points to move to 2nd line production. Or Read to get 2 more points to move to 1st line production. Or Vinny 4 more to get to 2nd line production.

Plus now we have a 40 point two-way dman to help with the transition game. And now, in 2-3 years, we only need 1 kid to be a top pairing guy if Coburn leaves. If he doesn't, then they only have to be 3rd pairing if Streit and MacD are 2nd pairing still.

Trading for 1 dman gives us a MASSIVE buffer on the kids development. And if 3 of them go nuts and WAZy exceed what we think their capable of, then it pushes Schenn, Striet or MacD to 3rd pairing or into being traded off.

I want the kids to be better than what we have to make the team. Not make the team because we have open roster spots that we NEED them to fill.

Every year, there is top line talent available thru UFA. There is RARELY top pairing Dmen available. And remember, in 1 year, there is a certain LW that we all hope/expect to sign with us.

 

[Tripod]

Also something I didn't mention is this:

Nashville is a team that DOES have a pipeline and history of developing Good dman. And with Jones being names top Dman at the WHC, they might look at a move to help the F.

Now add in that their new coach is Lavi. There will be guys that he liked and will give his opinion on. He SAW good L.Schenn and almost PPG Voracek. He also saw good Grossmann.

And with Holmgren not being the GM, the bad blood between us and Nashvile is lessened a bit.

Plus, adding a good passing D as opposed to Schenn or Grossmann opens up many more chances for the F.

Anyways, I promise no more long posts on this anymore. But I would trade a 1st line winger and a mid/3rd pairing guy for a top pairing/low end #1 and a 3rd liner...assuming all the guys we acquire are young and on good contracts as well. I WOULD NOT trade for someone like Phaneuf for example.

So who else would you guys look at? On goal, would you look at someone like Montoya? Johnson? Peters? Personally, I would try ANC add Montoya for a year to see if Heeter keeps improving.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

And with Holmgren not being the GM, the bad blood between us and Nashvile is lessened a bit.

There never was any bad blood, only on HFBoards there was. Poile had Homer apart of his advisory group for Team USA during the Olympics this past winter for christ sakes.

 

[Tripod]

There never was any bad blood, only on HFBoards there was. Poile had Homer apart of his advisory group for Team USA during the Olympics this past winter for christ sakes.

You know, even though I watched the info on Ryan during that time, I never really picked up on that.

 

[cheesesteakarmor]

Well there you go, Morin is guaranteed to be better than Weber. The only question is how many cups will they win? 3? 5? 10?

1 million cups

 

[Striiker]

Thank you for taking the time for a well thought out reply.

I agree with what you say on all the forwards. Most should continue to produce based on their age and upside. I just look at that defense and see that only Coburn can handle 1st line minutes. And even he often makes many mistakes. MacD has shown that he is very good when his minutes are not extended too far. Same with Streit. That leaves Gross and Schenn which we all agree are not top pairing guys.

And remember, we were VERY healthy last year on D. What happens if we have an injury or like like every other year? Then we likely miss the playoffs. But adding 1 D who is a top paring guy keeps all of MacD, Streit, Schenn and Grossmann off the top pair unless an injury...hopefully short term.

How many guys do we have that can play in a top 6 offensive role?
Hartnell, G, Voracek, Schenn, Simmonds, Read, Couts, and Vinny.
Trading 1 would not hurt us as we have a guy who can replace them in the top 6. Then we only have to find a 3rd line player as a replacement which is easy to do in free agency.

Personally, I would be looking for a trade where we trade 1D and 1F for 1D and 1F. Trade the better F for a better D and trade the lesser D for lesser F.
Example: Simmonds/Voracek and L.Schenn/Grossmann for Josi and Wilson.
It keeps our depth at each position, but makes the D better, but F worse....in theory.
Losing Jake or Simmer would suck. But we add our best dman and a 22 year old one on a great contract. He also put up 40 points from the D position. Wilson put up 33 and is 24 years old.
So we keep similar aged guys, replaced the points lost, and now are not asking EVERY dman to play above their ability that they have already shown they can't do.

We all say how Read can put up more points if he played in an offensive role. So move him into it. So now he goes from 40 point guy to 50 point guy. Move Schenn to the wing and move his minutes from under 16 to 19, and then his points go up.
Find a defensive player or 2 to take some of the hard minutes from Couts and Read.
Adding a Maholtra allows G not to take all the draws in the D zone...wining 59%. Imagine him and his skillset vs Rinaldo or Rosehill. Yet Maholtra was paid less than them.
We are using 2 offensive players on a shutdown line. And against some teams, it makes sense. But having a 4th line that can do some of that work would free up Read and Couts to develop more offensively.

I guess it's the fact that our other D have PROVEN they cannot handle 1st line minutes. So why put them in a position to fail. We all KNOW, any of the present D paired with Coburn will be exposed on a top pair.
With the deal above, we still have 9 guys who produced as top 9 scorers. We would have 3 1st line producers, 2 2nd line producers, and 4 3rd line producers. We would only need Couts to get 2 more points to move to 2nd line production. Or Read to get 2 more points to move to 1st line production. Or Vinny 4 more to get to 2nd line production.

Plus now we have a 40 point two-way dman to help with the transition game. And now, in 2-3 years, we only need 1 kid to be a top pairing guy if Coburn leaves. If he doesn't, then they only have to be 3rd pairing if Streit and MacD are 2nd pairing still.

Trading for 1 dman gives us a MASSIVE buffer on the kids development. And if 3 of them go nuts and WAZy exceed what we think their capable of, then it pushes Schenn, Striet or MacD to 3rd pairing or into being traded off.

I want the kids to be better than what we have to make the team. Not make the team because we have open roster spots that we NEED them to fill.

Every year, there is top line talent available thru UFA. There is RARELY top pairing Dmen available. And remember, in 1 year, there is a certain LW that we all hope/expect to sign with us.

I think that's partly where we're disagreeing, I don't think that we would be able to get a legit top pairing defenseman that would be worth messing with our forward depth for just one of our forwards, I think it would be two of them or one of them and a big +. I'm also very weary when it comes to trading forwards for defense, especially when we're trading really good proven forwards for a defenseman who might be getting a boost by playing on an all defense team and with the best Dman in the league.

I still disagree and I'd prefer not to make these trades just yet but I do see what you're saying. I think I'd say to let the young prospects play next season and give them a chance and if they're still too far away from where we want them then we look at trades, but right now I'd rather see what we have in our young Dmen and let our team get better together than risk a trade.

 

[achdumeingute]

I don't think josi is the guy to trade all that for.

We really can't afford to lose those forwards either. Our prospects are non existant at forward.

I'd probably do it for Jones though.

 

[lancer247]

Trade Grossmann for a 3rd.
Sign Kimmo $4.5MM
Sign Strahlman $5MM
Sign Raymond $2.5MM

 

[Willis88]

Trade Grossmann for a 3rd.
Sign Kimmo $4.5MM
Sign Strahlman $5MM
Sign Raymond $2.5MM

Are you kidding me?

 

[lancer247]

Are you kidding me?

Assuming a worst case scenario.

 

[Random Forest]

Stralman at 5m is just a duplicate of what we have with MacDonald. And we certainly don't need more of that.

That's the kind of restraint we need to be showing moving forward. If he's not solving our defensive issues, we should not be giving away 4m+ deals away as long as we have semi close prospects available (Alt/Gostisbehere).

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

There never was any bad blood, only on HFBoards there was. Poile had Homer apart of his advisory group for Team USA during the Olympics this past winter for christ sakes.

yeah no kidding. This whole revenge thing and Nashville having the Flyers on their ****list for all eternity is hilarious.
Rememeber when folks said the same thing when Clarke offer sheeted Kesler? that the entire league would blackball the Flyers and not deal with them?
too funny.

 

[The Rage Kage]

If rather trade vinny and cousins+ for a defensemen, simmonds a voracek play a vital role in the team

 

[healthyscratch]

Joe Thornton is going to be available.

 

[Prongo]

Stralman shouldn't get anymore than 3.5 on the open market unless a team like the Oilers win his bidding. He would be better around 2.75 but I could see him signing for 3.25 a year for 4 years. I think I saw a report he turned down 3 years 9 million earlier from the Rangers. He isn't what this defense needs and if we add him then I believe Coburn would be out, because we would have three defenseman(Coburn, MacDonald, Stralman) who would pretty much bring the same style. MacDonald actually is the most offensive out of the three.

 

[Prongo]

I also see Dallas fans throwing Chiasson's name all over the and would love to get him in a trade for Vinny. Ferraro said 20 teams were lining up for Vinny so I still think there will be considerable interest in him. Hexy can easily sell he was misused and not suitable for Berube's system.

 

[The Rage Kage]

He can use the fact that he scored 20 goals being switched around all the time with a coach who doesn't fit his style of play and easily get at least one gm to consider

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

I am not convinced Vinny is even on the trade block.

 

[RJ8812*]

it will be near impossible to trade him, so I wouldn't get your hopes up

 

[BleedOrange]

Going to be a wild off season think its going to be a big WOW didn't see that coming to what hextall does cause he has to do something.

 

[RJ8812*]

I would much rather him do nothing than something stupid

He isn't Holmgrem, so I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't make a huge splash

 

[PALE PWNR]

Let's just give Vinny to San José for Jumbo Joe. Sounds fair right?