Post-Game Talk: Plus-Minus Thread | Panthers 6, Penguins 4

[BmxHockey]

- George Parros ice time at astonishing 2:48!

 

[Jag68Sid87]

In Vokoun's 7 starts, he's allowed 3 or more goals in 6 of them. If that was Fleury, you'd be ripping him a new one for it. And no, at no point of this season has Vokoun been the better of the 2 to earn himself anything more than a backup spot.

Vokoun was playing as a very capable backup to start the season.

You speak as if there's no chance Fleury won't out-do Vokoun on the suck-o-meter scale. We've seen him do it, it can happen at any time.

I think it's quite disconcerting that the veteran we brought in to push Fleury this season has reverted to playing like Fleury did last spring.

But honestly, this team's problems start behind the bench, not in the crease area.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

It was a great comeback in the 2nd, showed a lot of heart from the guys. Sucks we couldn't capitalize in the 3rd, I thought we had great scoring chances

 

[PensFanSince1989]

That said, the biggest thing I don't like is that Crosby needs to step up and call his teammates out. He's not necessarily their friend, he's their Captain first. When is the last time Crosby has called for a team meeting to tell his teammates to get their heads out of their *****? I can't recall one ever.

Comments like these confuse me. Since when are we privy to team meetings, who calls them, and what's said in them by whom?

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Especially since Despres-Letang have been too successful when played together so far.... no need to further explore that one....

But I otherwise agree with you.

And to be honest, from Day 1 they've always played well together. I remember watching Despres play an exhibition game in Montreal as a rookie in September, 2009, and he was paired with Letang and the duo just clicked instantly. I too like the idea of pairing Letang with a veteran stay-at-home type, but honestly it's not necessary if we simply PLAY DESPRES damnit!

I agree with the bolded 100%. I also posted something similar a few pages back and got nothing but the typical "Why does Sid need to do everything" response. I'm not saying trade him, or take away his C, but simply made the comment that when the guy with the C call people out, it usually gets a good response provided they respect the Captain.....I think Sid has the team's respect.

In other words, the team doesn't respect the coach. He's the substitute teacher. So we need Crosby to do the coach's job. Crosby is a leader by example. Every shift, every practice, every interview...that is how Sidney Crosby leads. The vocal leader in the room was never him *by all accounts*. And this isn't a novelty. Joe Sakic was never the vocal leader in the Avs room, either. There are a myriad of examples of what I'm talking about.

Yes, when a captain has it in him he can speak and be the vocal leader, etc. etc. But the coach's MANDATE is to communicate with his players. And when they're playing like dog poo, the coach better know how to get them to stop crapping the bed. Or else.

You believe Crosby needs to be vocal. I say Bylsma needs to be doing his job, and rip them a new one. It is WAY WAY overdue. Because Bylsma won't be producing two points a game. So, even if Sid isn't being vocal, he's the franchise and does enough for this team. If Bylsma isn't getting the players' attention, he is literally useless.

 

[StutzlesTapeJob]

Maybe I am off base, but part of me goes back to HCDB's line juggling as a major source of the issues the team has with execution and discipline (not in the penalty sense, but the on ice responsibility sense).

I wish i had kept track of regular (standard line) shifts, vs mix and match and how many good and bad shifts we had. With how fast the game moves in the NHL, a split second or a few feet means guys are out of position and thus there is strain on the system. Part of being in the right place at the right time is knowing your linemates and partners tendencies.

Penalties make it tough on a coach, but last night there was so much juggling, and very little flow. I need to see TOI, but i noticed Duper playing a decent game but hardly saw him on the ice. I think HCDB loses track of people when he over juggles as well.

+neal - thought he played with a lot of effort and did more creating off his own stick than usual.
+ Martin....dare i say brilliant for the most part?
+ Borts - steady. plays a simple game which stood out in a good way
- our inability to overcome teams which clog the neutral zone. If our dump pass from the d doesn't work, we never just go north south and dump chase. Key to that is chase...which requires speed through the neutral zone. All our forwards are stopped on the redline waiting to tip a shot in from the D.

+ panthers PP. That is a good direct PP. Move it to the net and win the battles. Even if you dont get the rebound, it makes the PK scramble which then opens better lanes and options.

+ Crosby overall. Showing signs of regaining full form. Lots of won puck battles. But he is still a little too perimeter. He needs to drive the net and shoot more. It will open more of the pass lanes he is looking for in turn.

 

[Ogelthorpe]

And to be honest, from Day 1 they've always played well together. I remember watching Despres play an exhibition game in Montreal as a rookie in September, 2009, and he was paired with Letang and the duo just clicked instantly. I too like the idea of pairing Letang with a veteran stay-at-home type, but honestly it's not necessary if we simply PLAY DESPRES damnit!



In other words, the team doesn't respect the coach. He's the substitute teacher. So we need Crosby to do the coach's job. Crosby is a leader by example. Every shift, every practice, every interview...that is how Sidney Crosby leads. The vocal leader in the room was never him *by all accounts*. And this isn't a novelty. Joe Sakic was never the vocal leader in the Avs room, either. There are a myriad of examples of what I'm talking about.

Yes, when a captain has it in him he can speak and be the vocal leader, etc. etc. But the coach's MANDATE is to communicate with his players. And when they're playing like dog poo, the coach better know how to get them to stop crapping the bed. Or else.

You believe Crosby needs to be vocal. I say Bylsma needs to be doing his job, and rip them a new one. It is WAY WAY overdue. Because Bylsma won't be producing two points a game. So, even if Sid isn't being vocal, he's the franchise and does enough for this team. If Bylsma isn't getting the players' attention, he is literally useless.

This is wrong on so many levels. It's not about the coach's effectiveness, or ineffectiveness to communicate, or the coach getting his players to buy in. Getting called out by your Captain is about the worst feeling a guy can have. When the leader amongst the players calls for more accountability, it is basically a reminder that the coach is right, and that each player needs to pick up there game.

Nobody wants to be called out by their peers, especially by one of their most respected peers. Example, when Bill Guerin came into the locker room on day one and called out everyone, including Sid. Look at the results...immediate 5 game road trip win streak.

 

[vikingGoalie]

Comments like these confuse me. Since when are we privy to team meetings, who calls them, and what's said in them by whom?

the beat reporters are all over this sorta thing normally. especially our cracker jack ones

but seriously. you hear it all the time from other teams when the team is playing like garbage and the team captain calls a meeting, the beat reporters report it, etc.

Sure do we know what was said behind closed doors? no. We are supposed to be cup contenders. We are very very far from that in how we are playing the game right now. We have the talent to win against anybody. But the saying "Will beats Skill" is very true come playoff time. I don't see the Will right now. You have to win games like this. Some of this is on Blysma, but a lot is in the leadership in the room. We didn't lose this game because of a game plan, we lost it because our players played like they were playing a beer league rec game at times.

 

[Tender Rip]

Nobody wants to be called out by their peers, especially by one of their most respected peers. Example, when Bill Guerin came into the locker room on day one and called out everyone, including Sid. Look at the results...immediate 5 game road trip win streak.

What are you talking about?
Pens were on a 3 game win streak before Guerin even played his first game. Magic started after Bylsma's first game which was a 1-0 loss at the Isles, and Geno had the OT winner at Chicago in the next game, setting off the Crosby-less win streak. Guerin called out Sid when he was injured, really? Called out his team mates on arrival while they were in the midst of a winning streak away from home, really? You not just making things up now, are you?

 

[cheesedanish87]

With bort in the lineup were 6-4 and lost 4 of the last 5. With Despres in the lineup were 11-4 and won 8 of last 10. Coincidence?

 

[ColePens]

Except everyone just turns into. FIRE BYLSMA.

I definitely agree there is more discussion needed before saying "fire" anyone.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Jiggy, do you feel comfortable in saying 'give him the season', or do you do so more with hope than in confidence.

For me, it's the former. I see nothing to suggest that this year will be different. All of the red flags, so many of which have been there the last three years and especially the last eight or nine months, still are there and some may be worse. That's why I cited the example of what Lamoriello did in 2000. He looked at his team, a 'cup favorite' with the best record in the East, and said this looked to him like a team headed for a playoff debacle. He pulled the trigger with eight games left.

I'd hate to gamble a season on the hope that this year's playoff coaching will be different, which is why I asked if you hope or if you're confident.

It's more hope... patience... not wanting to throw DB under the bus than anything. It's easy to blame the coach, but the players are the ones playing selfish, lazy hockey. However, it has been a constant trend, so you have to start looking at the coach and wondering why his team lacks discipline.

I don't care what systems he has in place... Without discipline, you are doomed to fail.

No one should be bigger than the team. He can't continue to let stars like Malkin, Neal and Letang play selfish, lazy hockey... When they turn the puck over, take dumb penalties, etc, there has to be a limit to their rope. At some point, those guys need to be sat down for a shift to get the message across that those mistakes won't be tolerated repeatedly.

If they pout, instead of manning up, then in all honesty, the Pens should explore trade options, and I mean that. I'm not saying those guys should be moved, at all, really. My point is that if they want a championship caliber team, every player has to be on board and it starts with your stars.

However, DB can't even sit TK for a game. He has been given enough rope to hang himself several times over. It is worrisome that he is so afraid to discipline his guys, and prefers to be their buddy, rather than their coach.

 

[IcedCapp]

With bort in the lineup were 6-4 and lost 4 of the last 5. With Despres in the lineup were 11-4 and won 8 of last 10. Coincidence?

Yes. That's the definition of a coincidence. And I'm one of the people who wants to see
Despres play 20-minutes a night.

 

[RehnX]

+ Bennett, he's giving it his all every shift, gotta respect that.
+ KCN, ignoring the stupid penalties, they're playing great
+ Martin, Bortuzzo, Engelland, until the 2nd period they looked like the only D who knew what they were doing.

= Niskanen(He made some stupid mistakes, but also some fantastic recoveries.

- Voukun, Goalies are going to have off nights sometimes, this was just awful though.
- Letang, he needs to learn that when the Pens are tied or up on the scoreboard he doesn't need to take so many offensive risks.

 

[AquaticBirdman]

I'm honestly scratching my head at all the people here already throwing Vokoun under the bus and suggesting we "cut his ass" because of two straight bad games. If we go by that philosophy then Fleury would've been shipped off years ago. If you get rid of Vokoun then who do you replace him with? The garbage we have down in WBS? Would you rather have Brent Johnson backing up Fleury again?

 

[Dying Alive]

Yes. That's the definition of a coincidence. And I'm one of the people who wants to see
Despres play 20-minutes a night.

Agreed. Bortuzzo has had absolutely nothing to do with the losses in which he's played in any measurable way. If anything he's outplayed the veterans in some of them, including last night.

I don't really do +/- but I have to give a + to Paul Martin. What an incredible turn-around. He's not only been better than last season, he's been better than what we expected to get when the Pens signed him as a free agent. I don't think it's hyperbole to say that aside from Sid he's having the best season of anyone on the team right now.

 

[AquaticBirdman]

I definitely agree there is more discussion needed before saying "fire" anyone.

The only way Byslma ever gets fired is if we're at risk of missing the post season, plain and simple. UNtil that happens he isn't going anywhere, regardless of how many frustrating losses like these we happen to come by. Shero really had to be backed against a wall in order to can Therrien, so I don't see why it would be any different with a coach that has posted an impressive W/L record and has already won you a cup.

 

[Mo Wanchuk]

Losing to FLA who were missing:

Kris Versteeg, RW - $4.4 million
Ed Jovanovski, D - $4.125 million
Filip Kuba, D - $4 million
Scottie Upshall, LW - $3.5 million
Stephen Weiss, C $3.1 million
Sean Bergenheim, RW - $2.75 million

 

[ColePens]

Losing to FLA who were missing:

Kris Versteeg, RW - $4.4 million
Ed Jovanovski, D - $4.125 million
Filip Kuba, D - $4 million
Scottie Upshall, LW - $3.5 million
Stephen Weiss, C $3.1 million
Sean Bergenheim, RW - $2.75 million

Sometimes those teams are harder to play. Those are a bunch of guys who want to make a name for themselves in the NHL. They are playing with playoff/career intensity.

 

[radapex]

+ Bennett, he's giving it his all every shift, gotta respect that.
+ KCN, ignoring the stupid penalties, they're playing great
+ Martin, Bortuzzo, Engelland, until the 2nd period they looked like the only D who knew what they were doing.

= Niskanen(He made some stupid mistakes, but also some fantastic recoveries.

- Voukun, Goalies are going to have off nights sometimes, this was just awful though.
- Letang, he needs to learn that when the Pens are tied or up on the scoreboard he doesn't need to take so many offensive risks.

That they are. I'm a huge fan of Vokoun's, and have been for some time, but last night really illustrated the Penguins major issue and it's the same one they had last season: they do nothing to insulate or help their goaltender.

If you think back to last Jan-Mar, the Penguins were winning games with Fleury in net and getting completely destroyed with Johnson/Thiessen in net. This wasn't a coincidence; Fleury was playing at a very high level and covered the majority of the Penguins' mistakes. This also led to the inevitable fatigue of Fleury, which you can be sure was a factor in his poor performance last April.

We're seeing the very same thing right now. Vokoun is off his game and is getting lit up because the Pens are doing very little to help. Fleury is on his game and is bailing the team out.

If you look at teams getting "elite goaltending" they all have something in common: great commitment to team defense. When their goalie has an off night or goes through a rough stretch, they step up defensively and make his job easier. This doesn't happen with the Pens, and until it does they are going to live (or die) by their goaltending.

 

[radapex]

I'm honestly scratching my head at all the people here already throwing Vokoun under the bus and suggesting we "cut his ass" because of two straight bad games. If we go by that philosophy then Fleury would've been shipped off years ago. If you get rid of Vokoun then who do you replace him with? The garbage we have down in WBS? Would you rather have Brent Johnson backing up Fleury again?

I wouldn't exactly call Zatkoff garbage.

 

[plaidchuck]

The only way Byslma ever gets fired is if we're at risk of missing the post season, plain and simple. UNtil that happens he isn't going anywhere, regardless of how many frustrating losses like these we happen to come by. Shero really had to be backed against a wall in order to can Therrien, so I don't see why it would be any different with a coach that has posted an impressive W/L record and has already won you a cup.

Yeah could always be worse. Just imagine how Sharks fans feel. Nearly a decade of regular season dominance and nada.

 

[AquaticBirdman]

I wouldn't exactly call Zatkoff garbage.

So you'd go as far as to say he'd be a better alternative to back up Fleury right now over Vokoun?

 

[PensFanSince1989]

Vokoun isn't the problem. He's just getting a nice welcome to Pittsburgh Penguins hockey.

 

[KIRK]

Bylsma needs an accountabilibuddy

Already got one . . . Tony Granato.