WC: 2024 Team USA

[MNRube]

My position is that it's ridiculous to hold the team's medal performances against Gaudreau.

Your position is to blindly defend your favorite player and make excuses for every adversity he encounters. He had 60 points in his most recent full season. He is small, has no physicality and plays for a country with 3 offensive Cs who are significantly better. It’s very realistic for people to question his standing amongst Team USA in a true best-on-best format. Smart $ says he bounces back to around PPG this year, but you aren’t remotely objective in your Gaudreau takes

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Your position is to blindly defend your favorite player and make excuses for every adversity he encounters. He had 60 points in his most recent full season.

Stat watching is surely the best way to build teams. People wanted to leave Gaudreau off the potential 2022 roster because he failed to light it up while carrying around an injured Sean Monahan. I told people that with legitimate linemates, he'd be a 100+ point player and we'd look ridiculous leaving him off the team, and guess what happened?

You can call me biased all you want, but maybe it's worth considering that a small guy like Gaudreau can't carry an entire offense without a little help (which he'd obviously have on any best on best roster).

He is small, has no physicality and plays for a country with 3 offensive Cs who are significantly better.

Gaudreau isn't even a center lol....

It’s very realistic for people to question his standing amongst Team USA in a true best-on-best format. Smart $ says he bounces back to around PPG this year,

The talent is absolutely still there, we've seen it in this tournament.

but you aren’t remotely objective in your Gaudreau takes

At least I know what position he plays.

 

[AmericanDream]

Very interesting read. Sullivan and Guerin were at the practice today. You have to believe they are taking loyalty serious if Sullivan is out there too. Very nice to see boys!

Lindgren was on the ice as well...no mention on who plays net tomorrow..

 

[Rabid Ranger]

This. If they take a guy like Keller instead of Johnny and co, there's no point for USA Hockey even to try get more talent into this tournament in the future. Now it's time to set the tone for the future.

Fringe guys like Keller, Boeser etc who have never shown up should be left out. Fringe guys like Johnny, Jones, Nelson and Kane should be in the team.

It would be rather sad to first say that now is the time to come if you want to participate in next season's big tournaments and then in the end these words wouldn't mean a damn thing.

I think USA Hockey shares this view.

 

[SanDogBrewin]

Don't be fudging around with Latvia.

My position is that it's ridiculous to hold the team's medal performances against Gaudreau.

Team game and should be obvious to all. But apparently not everyone that want to single out one player..

 

[Jersey Fan 12]

They just showed the graph on TSN, through NHL Network, that I think it was Rob Johnson. Not 100% sure though.

That is some gap if true.

EDIT:



Ok here it is. LoL wasn't Buzz an astronaut as well.

Would really love to learn more about Buzz Johnson as he basically only played two seasons for Team USA (10 goals in seven games in his second season with Team USA) and had 50 points in one season at North Dakota when it looks like he was in his late 20's.

Appears he may have served in World War II.

Any resources on him?

Also was in the era when very few Americans had opportunities in the six-team NHL.

How good was he and why such a short career?

 

[Jersey Fan 12]

More on Buzz.

Very interesting section about his career and also about the early days of North Dakota's hockey team.

Didn't realize his career also interacted with the infamous 1950 Czech national team that has been a topic of study for me for several years.
After winning a world championship the prior year, most of the players would later be arrested en masse; with many of the greatest players of that era being sent to work camps.

The Johnson brothers had a role in a former Czech player defecting to play at North Dakota prior to that season.

Buzz Johnson (ice hockey) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[WarriorofTime]

Lopsided results involving certain teams.

World Championship 1949 - Player Stats

Ice Hockey World Championships 1949 scoring leaders and demographics breakdown. Player birth country and age distributions, draft rounds of players in the 1949 tournament.

www.quanthockey.com

World Championship 1950 - Player Stats

Ice Hockey World Championships 1950 scoring leaders and demographics breakdown. Player birth country and age distributions, draft rounds of players in the 1950 tournament.

www.quanthockey.com

American didn't get NHL opportunities then as NHL players came via direct sponsorship of Junior Hockey which was entirely in Canada. Tough to say if any of them could have been good enough had they gotten a bigger shake at it. Americans only came back to the NHL once expansion occurred. I also think the graphic is just wrong and it was a different guy that had 19 goals.

 

[AmericanDream]

And my position that it's ridiculous to give an extra special boost to someone for showing up for teams that don't even medal to "reward them for their service" if there are better players available.

What better players? The ones who didn't bother to show up? Sorry but your take on this is beyond absurd...

Yes. Yes you reward the talented players who show up. That is the entire damn point. Gaudreau wasn't the reason the team didn't medal. Kane wasn't the reason the team didn't get to the gold. Why does this have to be explained to you?

 

[MNRube]

Gaudreau isn't even a center lol....

The talent is absolutely still there, we've seen it in this tournament.

At least I know what position he plays.

Of course he’s not a C, you donkey. The point is that we have 3 offensive Cs as our best players so we need to get some two-way players sprinkled in. Your hard on for Gaudreau is the worst kept secret on HF.

You know that I am aware he is a wing because earlier in this thread (not even 24 hours ago) we discussed the wings that should play on the team. Such a feckless homer, don’t know why I bothered

 

[WarriorofTime]

What better players? The ones who didn't bother to show up? Sorry but your take on this is beyond absurd...

Yes. Yes you reward the talented players who show up. That is the entire damn point. Gaudreau wasn't the reason the team didn't medal. Kane wasn't the reason the team didn't get to the gold. Why does this have to be explained to you?

You keep saying I said something I didn't so drop the "have to be explained" aspects.

I've consistently said BRING. THE. BEST. PLAYERS.

If that's Gaudreau, bring Gaudreau. If that's someone else, bring someone else. I don't care how many times you showed up to score a bunch of points against Kazakhstan and I didn't say it's your fault if you lost. Now, if you show up and you WIN A GOLD MEDAL and played well, then yes, that's a big factor.

But I. DO. NOT. CARE. ABOUT. PARTICIPATION. IN. WORLD. CHAMPIONSHIPS. FOR. THE. SAKE. OF. PARTICIPATION. It's not an important tournament and they never win it so there's no past glory to reach from out of it. And I say that as one of the few Americans on this board that actually watches it. You can go through every player's year to year career and slap their wrist for not coming in such and such year (many at times when the best-on-best Olympics weren't even possibilities) like a Catholic School Nun all you want. From my point of view, your starting premise is simply who are the best players that give you the best chance to win an Olympic tournament.

Gaudreau specifically, no, he shouldn't be on. The team has some brilliantly gifted Centers that will be the main offensive engines, the wingers should be guys that complement them well, not necessarily whichever left wing has the 2nd most primary assists or whatever. That's biased towards the type of player Gaudreau... isn't. If he is having a brilliant NHL season, then he can warrant some consideration. Patrick Kane is a legend and he played well this most recent season, so I'd give him a bit more consideration if he's close as it'd be good to have at least a guy or two with best-on-best Olympic experience.

It's not impossible for Gaudreau to make it if they determine he's a good playmaking wing to pair with a goal scoring center.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Of course he’s not a C, you donkey. The point is that we have 3 offensive Cs as our best players

You don't think Eichel is a two way player? Or Matthews?

Regardless, you can never have too much talent. This is the type of thinking that led us to take Abdelkader over 3 time cup champion Phil Kessel.

so we need to get some two-way player sprinkled in.

You say that, then mention guys like Connor, Keller, Guentzel, and Thompson as guys who he'd be competing with.

Just as a reminder, Gaudreau put up the best +/- in a season we've seen from a forward since 80's Gretzky. He's been a dominant possession player his entire career despite carrying an oft injured Monahan around.

During his time in Calgary, Darryl Sutter referred to Gaudreau as the "best checking forward on the team" and "one of the best two way players in the league". After coaching against him, Hitchcock said that Gaudreau is "more dangerous without the puck" because of his ability to steal pucks and anticipate the play.

Truth is, we have plenty of elite possession players (like Gaudreau) to allow us to take a few defensively liable offensive stars like Kane & Connor.

 

[MNRube]

No Gaudreau, no Kane, no Zegras, no Caufield. Gaudreau has the best chance to make it back, but to do so he has to get back to well above PPG.

This isn’t the Team USA of old. Bring some role players to compliment the superstar Cs. Especially when the role players are outscoring the skilled guys. Whiskey will have a stroke at the mere thought of Gaudreau being left off, but hopefully Guerin is smarter

 

[WarriorofTime]

No Gaudreau, no Kane, no Zegras, no Caufield. Gaudreau has the best chance to make it back, but to do so he has to get back to well above PPG.

This isn’t the Team USA of old. Bring some role players to compliment the superstar Cs. Especially when the role players are outscoring the skilled guys. Whiskey will have a stroke at the mere thought of Gaudreau being left off, but hopefully Guerin is smarter

Oh noo, USA can't leave off its 25th leading scorer! That's like bringing Abdelkader, lol

 

[MNRube]

Oh noo, USA can't leave off its 25th leading scorer! That's like bringing Abdelkader, lol

Webster is to Zucc what Whiskey is to Johnny Hockey what Pavel B is to Fox. Not sure why we bother. They are children defending their superhero toys

 

[Rabid Ranger]

No Gaudreau, no Kane, no Zegras, no Caufield. Gaudreau has the best chance to make it back, but to do so he has to get back to well above PPG.

This isn’t the Team USA of old. Bring some role players to compliment the superstar Cs. Especially when the role players are outscoring the skilled guys. Whiskey will have a stroke at the mere thought of Gaudreau being left off, but hopefully Guerin is smarter

"Bring some role players" is the Team USA of old. I saw you suggest Blake Coleman. Really?

 

[MNRube]

"Bring some role players" is the Team USA of old. I saw you suggest Blake Coleman. Really?

As a 4th liner, he and guys of his ilk should be considered. You want to be bring 13 scorers? Really?

Have you heard of the concept of Penalty Killing? Or forechecking?

By the way, Gaudreau was at 0.74 PPG last year and Coleman was at 0.69. You’re betraying your ignorance

Green Flag depth players: Coyle, Pinto, Tuch, Kreider, Coleman

Red Flag depth players: Gaudreau, Kane, Caufield, Zegras, Schmaltz, Terry

Locks: Matthews, Eichel, Hughes, Tkachuks, Boldy, Larkin, Robertson

That’s only 5 or 6 spots left. You get to pick between Boeser, Keller, Connor, Guentzel, Trocheck, Nelson and all the green flag & red flag players above. Plenty of skilled players will be left behind.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Auston Matthews
Matthew Tkachuk
Jack Eichel
Jason Robertson
J.T. Miller
Jack Hughes
Chris Kreider
Brady Tkachuk
Brock Nelson
Matthew Boldy
Jake Guentzel
Kyle Connor
Vincent Trocheck
Dylan Larkin
Brock Boeser
Tage Thompson
Patrick Kane
Clayton Keller
Johnny Gaudreau
Alex DeBrincat

Reality is you run out of spots pretty quickly. That’s roughly your 20 man shortlist, plus as MNRube points out, some “true Mr. Fourth Line” types. USA does this at WJC every year and needs to think about Canada specifically so I imagine they’ll kick the tires on some of those guys.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Hughes - Matthews - M. Tkachuk
Robertson - Eichel - Connor
Miller - Larkin - 3RW
B. Tkachuk - Thompson - Tuch

Question for me is who is best for the spot next to Miller/Larkin. Do you leave Kane out of that spot in possibly his last chance? Hard call.

 

[AmericanDream]

"Bring some role players" is the Team USA of old. I saw you suggest Blake Coleman. Really?

We found Brian Burke's burner account...

 

[AmericanDream]

You keep saying I said something I didn't so drop the "have to be explained" aspects.

I've consistently said BRING. THE. BEST. PLAYERS.

If that's Gaudreau, bring Gaudreau. If that's someone else, bring someone else. I don't care how many times you showed up to score a bunch of points against Kazakhstan and I didn't say it's your fault if you lost. Now, if you show up and you WIN A GOLD MEDAL and played well, then yes, that's a big factor.

But I. DO. NOT. CARE. ABOUT. PARTICIPATION. IN. WORLD. CHAMPIONSHIPS. FOR. THE. SAKE. OF. PARTICIPATION. It's not an important tournament and they never win it so there's no past glory to reach from out of it. And I say that as one of the few Americans on this board that actually watches it. You can go through every player's year to year career and slap their wrist for not coming in such and such year (many at times when the best-on-best Olympics weren't even possibilities) like a Catholic School Nun all you want. From my point of view, your starting premise is simply who are the best players that give you the best chance to win an Olympic tournament.

Gaudreau specifically, no, he shouldn't be on. The team has some brilliantly gifted Centers that will be the main offensive engines, the wingers should be guys that complement them well, not necessarily whichever left wing has the 2nd most primary assists or whatever. That's biased towards the type of player Gaudreau... isn't. If he is having a brilliant NHL season, then he can warrant some consideration. Patrick Kane is a legend and he played well this most recent season, so I'd give him a bit more consideration if he's close as it'd be good to have at least a guy or two with best-on-best Olympic experience.

It's not impossible for Gaudreau to make it if they determine he's a good playmaking wing to pair with a goal scoring center.

Bring the best players according to what? A stat sheet? How does a stat sheet explain a players overall value? How do you know that player truly gives a shit to be here? You keep making these general claims, then continue to say loyalty doesn't matter if a team doesn't win a medal. I am sorry but that is idiotic. The individual player isn't the reason the team didn't medal...not in the ones we are talking about.

I have no issues with anyone who doesn't like certain players. We all see players differently. I want the best players too, but you know what that means? It means I want players that view the name on the front far more important than the one on the back of their jersey.

Stats doesn't show a player buying into a team system either. Guys who couldn't be bothered to show up at the WC no matter their talent need to be carefully looked at. If you don't think buy in matters...not sure what to say. Especially in short tournaments like this it absolutely does.

Explain how a player that doesn't really care about representing his country being the better option over a guy who has come multiple times before? Tell me what that player is willing to do to win vs say Canada despite never playing them before? You don't think a players motivation matters?

Long gone are the days of the US having just a handful of top players, where taking guys who put up points the be all end all...the gap between the 4th best LW and 10th best LW is the smallest it has ever been. There is simply more to this than just stats...

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Gaudreau has the best chance to make it back, but to do so he has to get back to well above PPG.

There's maybe 3 players in the league that could have broken 80 points on last year's blue jackets.

Oh noo, USA can't leave off its 25th leading scorer! That's like bringing Abdelkader, lol

Yes, Gaudreau is certainly the 25th best offensive player among Americans.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Bring the best players according to what? A stat sheet?

Not according to "World Championships attended". Dunno where you got "stat sheet" from

 

[AmericanDream]

There's maybe 3 players in the league that could have broken 80 points on last year's blue jackets.


Yes, Gaudreau is certainly the 25th best offensive player among Americans.

Despite being 2 years older, Coleman is only 500 points away from catching up to Gaudreau's point totals lol....

 

[WarriorofTime]

Yes, Gaudreau is certainly the 25th best offensive player among Americans.

It can be debated where he falls precisely. Comparing leaving him off in 2025 to leaving Kessel off in 2016 (when it was a 24 and Over team especially) is just silly behavior.