Post-Game Talk: Plus-Minus Thread | Panthers 6, Penguins 4

[PensFanSince1989]

Vokoun was playing really well up until he faced Philly. Then he just started leaving steaming piles of poop on the ice.

Really well? No.

 

[Shwag33]

Vokoun was playing really well up until he faced Philly. Then he just started leaving steaming piles of poop on the ice.

Yeah, vokoun was playing well if not better than fleury up until 2 games ago. I think he was top 8 in the league in GAA and SV%. Those two games dropped him waaay down though.

Really just watching them up until the flyers game, visually I didnt think there was much difference. I think he'll get it back just like fleury recovered after last playoffs. Its just nice to have someone capable step in whenever one of your goalies is going through slumps like this, unlike last playoffs.

 

[PensFanSince1989]

In Vokoun's 7 starts, he's allowed 3 or more goals in 6 of them. If that was Fleury, you'd be ripping him a new one for it. And no, at no point of this season has Vokoun been the better of the 2 to earn himself anything more than a backup spot.

Vokoun was playing as a very capable backup to start the season.

 

[JQR]

Really well? No.

Ok, maybe that was a slight exaggeration. Well enough to have a winning record?

 

[PensFanSince1989]

Ok, maybe that was a slight exaggeration. Well enough to have a winning record?

I don't want to rag on Vokoun that much because despite his past 2 starts, I do think he's a good goalie to have on the roster. My beef was with the poster trying to blame Bylsma for Vokoun's play, trying to claim that Vokoun somehow deserved more ice time. Vokoun has, apart from his past 2 starts, been a very capable backup. But nothing he's done so far has said that he should be getting more time in the net than he's already getting, especially considering how solid Fleury has been so far (fingers crossed). Overall, I'm still of the belief that no goalie would be able to get comfortable playing net during Flyers-Pens games when they get like they did last week so O don't even put that game on Vokoun.

 

[Tender Rip]

In Vokoun's 7 starts, he's allowed 3 or more goals in 6 of them. If that was Fleury, you'd be ripping him a new one for it.

...and if we had had Fleury in the game from the start today, I bet that you and the most persistent Fleury fans would be busy describing how in actual fact only the Campbell goal was a should have.... and that was a snipe in any case.

...and I would agree! Doesn't mean Vokoun looked good today, but the culprits were Letang and less so Niskanen on three of the four PP goals; every bit as much as it was Letang/Niskanen when Fleischmann got the winner on Fleury.

 

[Captain Hook]

The Pens really need to find Letang a stay at home partner that can bail him out on some of those bad pinches etc. Niskanen just isn't that type of D-Man. He's a good player that adds some puck moving and depth scoring to the D group but he was better served last year with a stay at home D like Engelland and Letang will be better served with someone else too. Finding something affordable that fits is the problem but I think Regehr fits the bill if/when he becomes available as a rental.

 

[JQR]

I don't want to rag on Vokoun that much because despite his past 2 starts, I do think he's a good goalie to have on the roster. My beef was with the poster trying to blame Bylsma for Vokoun's play, trying to claim that Vokoun somehow deserved more ice time. Vokoun has, apart from his past 2 starts, been a very capable backup. But nothing he's done so far has said that he should be getting more time in the net than he's already getting, especially considering how solid Fleury has been so far (fingers crossed). Overall, I'm still of the belief that no goalie would be able to get comfortable playing net during Flyers-Pens games when they get like they did last week so O don't even put that game on Vokoun.

Agree 100%.

 

[Tender Rip]

The Pens really need to find Letang a stay at home partner that can bail him out on some of those bad pinches etc. Niskanen just isn't that type of D-Man. He's a good player that adds some puck moving and depth scoring to the D group but he was better served last year with a stay at home D like Engelland and Letang will be better served with someone else too. Finding something affordable that fits is the problem but I think Regehr fits the bill if/when he becomes available as a rental.

Especially since Despres-Letang have been too successful when played together so far.... no need to further explore that one....

But I otherwise agree with you.

 

[ColePens]

Probably late on this but....

- To the whole team (I could see excluding Pauly M) for this awful, awful showing. Getting shellacked by a one trick, bottom of the barrel team is no way to get teams to respect or fear playing you. The whole group should be embarrassed after this junk contest. We better come out flying Thursday to make up for playing like idiots and taking penalty after penalty like some goon squad.

- Me for still being this angry over the game. I also blame my wet shoe/sock combination and now sitting at work trying to get them to dry.

I would caution calling Florida a bottom of the barrel team. I've watched plenty of their games and other posters have pointed out how well they've done this year staying in games. They grind it out and make it interesting, but don't have the overall talent to win more than they lose. The other day, it took a BS powerplay for Boston to gain the upperhand. I also watched them battle Tampa in a similar shootout just like this.

Give them some credit. They scrap/claw for points and wins.

...and if we had had Fleury in the game from the start today, I bet that you and the most persistent Fleury fans would be busy describing how in actual fact only the Campbell goal was a should have.... and that was a snipe in any case.

...and I would agree! Doesn't mean Vokoun looked good today, but the culprits were Letang and less so Niskanen on three of the four PP goals; every bit as much as it was Letang/Niskanen when Fleischmann got the winner on Fleury.

Vokoun looked shaky, but the goals weren't typically his fault. I agree that TV wants to play better and look more stable then he did against Philly and Florida, but TR is right here in saying it's not all Vokoun's fault.

However - this team does need some overall discipline. Not just in penalties, even though that is very important. They need to understand their roles out there and play strong hockey. We are just out there playing skilled hockey and winning/losing games based on it. We can outskill any team in the NHL except those who will be fundamentally better than the Pens. Then we are in a 50/50 game or worse.

And once again - you can't say the word "trap" but watch what Florida did every time they took the lead. They just posted up in the neutral against our stretch pass breakout and put it softly right back in our zone. Teams know what to do when they get the lead.

 

[wheelz87]

Haven't been this pissed off about a loss since last year. Couldn't even get myself to write in this thread last night. Minus to me for being too invested in this team.

+Crosby line.
+Martin.

-Discipline. Beyond a joke. We take some of the most absolute worst penalties. How many times is Kunitz going to run a goalie? KEEP YOUR ELBOW DOWN HOOKS. Neal, he's by you, NO REASON to hook him. Yo TK, be aware of an icing call. Thanks.

-DB. Down 1, 1:30 left in the game, we send out Dupuis, Sutter, somebody else. (excuse me if I'm wrong, but we did have a TO right?) USE IT!! That line is never going to score. Come on man. Big guns were rolling and you killed it.

-Letang. Was that the absolute WORST/most STUPID/biggest BONEHEAD pinch you have ever seen by a defensemen?? (if you answered no to that, Mike Green does not count.. so re-ask yourself now) For all that happened in that game, you cost us 2 points Letang.

-Vokoun. Ha, and I thought we had 2 solid goalies. Talk about falling off a cliff. Talk about having as much confidence in this guy as Brent Johnson. Again, flopping everywhere. Where's the calming presence? What another embarassing effort.

-Kennedy. I feel some people have been a bit harsh on TK this year. Eh, no more. Giveaway machine. Speed isn't there. Tenacity isn't there. What does he bring at this point? Thanks for the memories, your time is up.

 

[vyktor]

Rossi just asked Orpik whats wrong with the PK. Orpiik answer I dunno

Great leadership from a guy with an A

Can't our Captain step up get on guys for bad play/decisions. You know, the roll of Captain isn't just about how you play yourself, but getting the best out of your teammates......including their mental game.

This team is like a rudderless ship, I have no idea who is leading them but he's not doing a very good job. The D on this team has been without leadership since Gill and Gonchar left.

And here's my counter, even though I'm not entirely disagreeing with you.

In no particular order:

1) Our grinders and so called physical players aren't big.

2) The team, under orders from up top, have completely dialed down their physical play because they backed themselves into a corner by spouting off after the brawl game, the Crosby concussion and the Cooke incidents.

3) Our wingers are simply okay, and are more ideally suited to be third wheels on scoring lines. Even Neal, who is a lethal weapon with his shot, isn't really that noticeable until he scores. Thank God he scores a lot.

4) Staal, who covered up for a LOT of the lack of depth at wing, is no longer here. Instead we have a guy who's more ideally suited to be a third line checker, and nothing more.

Essentially, we have exactly TWO players on the roster that the offense can flow through. No matter how good they are, it's not enough, and as I mentioned a few weeks ago, the difference between Malkin/Crosby and i.e. Kane/Toews is but a few slivers, and not the wide gulf that separated Lemieux or even Jagr from the next best player in the League. Just look at the play that Sharp made on Hossa's (sigh) game winner in OT last night, and it's a perfect example of how little of that is on this team unless Malkin and Crosby play together.

We're not big enough to be the physical or grinding team they claim to be, and we're not quite skilled enough to be a finesse team. Add some erratic goaltending to the mix, and coaching issues aside, I'm sometimes surprised that they win as often as they do.

Sorry to chop off a lot of your post, but the bolded above is something I've also noticed and why I think this team is kind of in no man's land, and why I'm so skeptical about the chances of seeing another Cup with this current roster.

Our collection of forwards are too small to be an effective physical club that punishes the opposition and really wears teams down, but they're also not skilled enough to play a "Detroit Red Wings" puck possession game. So the result is a team that's sort of ... neither a physical, grinding defensive club nor an offensive threat everytime they're on the ice (except when out Big Two go into God mode).

If Shero wanted to build a team based on speed, puck movement, and quick strike offense, the collection of forwards he's assembled were the wrong ones. If Shero wanted to build a team that punished the opposing defense and was generally a chore to play against, again, he needed to bring in a lot more size and physicality than he has.

You look at a team like the Bruins and you know exactly what they're trying to assemble there. You look at the Red Wings over the past decade and again, you know what kind of style they want to play. Ditto a team like the Devils. Then there's the Penguins, whose identity is basically "they've got the two best players in the world".

I mean, seriously, what kind of team are the Pens?

This team has no identity,
Both of these quotes get to the heart of the matter, this team has no identity. It's not skilled enough to be a finesse team, not gritty enough to be a grinding team. Talented enough for the regular season, but when the mediocre teams are gone, just nothing special.

The D and the bottom 6 has too many guys who are good at playing the puck, good at playing D, good hitters, but don't stand out at any thing. Vanilla, Vanilla, Vanilla

There needs to be some kind of shake up, some kind of leadership and personality brought to this team it is just so meh to watch and root for.

 

[specialized]

Its just a game,relax, you win some you lose some.

 

[ColePens]

Its just a game,relax, you win some you lose some.

And this is a hockey board where we discuss every aspect of the game. In fact - that's what the post-game threads are for.

 

[wheelz87]

And here's my counter, even though I'm not entirely disagreeing with you.

In no particular order:

1) Our grinders and so called physical players aren't big.

2) The team, under orders from up top, have completely dialed down their physical play because they backed themselves into a corner by spouting off after the brawl game, the Crosby concussion and the Cooke incidents.

3) Our wingers are simply okay, and are more ideally suited to be third wheels on scoring lines. Even Neal, who is a lethal weapon with his shot, isn't really that noticeable until he scores. Thank God he scores a lot.

4) Staal, who covered up for a LOT of the lack of depth at wing, is no longer here. Instead we have a guy who's more ideally suited to be a third line checker, and nothing more.

Essentially, we have exactly TWO players on the roster that the offense can flow through. No matter how good they are, it's not enough, and as I mentioned a few weeks ago, the difference between Malkin/Crosby and i.e. Kane/Toews is but a few slivers, and not the wide gulf that separated Lemieux or even Jagr from the next best player in the League. Just look at the play that Sharp made on Hossa's (sigh) game winner in OT last night, and it's a perfect example of how little of that is on this team unless Malkin and Crosby play together.

We're not big enough to be the physical or grinding team they claim to be, and we're not quite skilled enough to be a finesse team. Add some erratic goaltending to the mix, and coaching issues aside, I'm sometimes surprised that they win as often as they do.

This is spot on, by the way. Could not have said it any better.

 

[Shrimper]

Funny thing is that when Vokoun played for the Capitals last year people all thought that because they finally had a solid goaltender at such a low cap hit they'd be a contender. He ended up not performing to par and left. I kind've feel that he's lost his mojo. We have him on hook for next season to so maybe he'll do better in a long season?

Yesterday had to be one of the worst d games I've ever seen though. I want to analyse our PK and PP but I think I'd be too pissed off to do so. Will give it a try though.

 

[ZapRowsdower13]

I would caution calling Florida a bottom of the barrel team. I've watched plenty of their games and other posters have pointed out how well they've done this year staying in games. They grind it out and make it interesting, but don't have the overall talent to win more than they lose. The other day, it took a BS powerplay for Boston to gain the upperhand. I also watched them battle Tampa in a similar shootout just like this.

Give them some credit. They scrap/claw for points and wins.

True, more angry that we left points on the table against a team we should absolutely take them from. Probably how good teams felt against us back in '05-'06. I respect their line 1, like Campbell being there but just can't believe how much they need the Power Play but yes its how their team is built, can't fault them for that.

Its just a game,relax, you win some you lose some.

True, but as I said above its just losing a game to a team we should beat if we're supposed to be a top teir club. Ahh well.

 

[Ogelthorpe]

This roster, as is, is good enough to win a Cup. I guarantee it. The coaches could be preaching all the right stuff, but the words are not sticking. Same thing happened w/ MT. When you stay undisciplined, continue to lose leads, can't maintain momentum, etc... it becomes a problem. All of these things are CONSISTENT problems. Yes - it's the players messing up. We get that. But you can't fire every player. You need someone to get the message across.

Look what happened when a simple message changed between MT and DB. The team went from being blown out against Toronto to being the most resilient Pens team I've ever seen. It happens in hockey. It happens in real life. The message needs to be there.

Do you think the players are responding to the coaches? And what would you suggest changes that?

I think the players are responding fine to the coaches. Is it concerning how we are losing leads...absolutely. However, I attribute some penalties on the way the games are being called. I don't think the calls from ref to ref are consistent when it comes to boarding etc.

Look, if we were just getting blown out from the drop of the puck, and looked bad for 60 minutes, then I would agree that they were tuning out DB. However, they usually come out ready to play, and jump out to a lot of leads. That is usually the sign that the coaches still have their respect and response.

Once again, I know that people will point to a time or two when changing coaches has sparked a team to the cup. However, more often it doesn't get the desired result, and can actually make the team worse. Just look at Washington and Anaheim now. Washington went in the tank without Boudreau, but Anaheim has gone from cellar dwellars to very relevant under Bruce.

I agree that you can't fire all of the players.....but you can fire one. Shero traded a piece of our core away in Whitney in 2009. Don't you think that sends a message. What if we moved someone like Orpik, or Letang? Do you think that would send a message? Take it one step further...what if that trade of say Orpik, was in a deal that gets Perry in return. Does that change the dynamic at all?

 

[JQR]

Funny thing is that when Vokoun played for the Capitals last year people all thought that because they finally had a solid goaltender at such a low cap hit they'd be a contender. He ended up not performing to par and left. I kind've feel that he's lost his mojo. We have him on hook for next season to so maybe he'll do better in a long season?

Yesterday had to be one of the worst d games I've ever seen though. I want to analyse our PK and PP but I think I'd be too pissed off to do so. Will give it a try though.

If last year was him underperforming, I really don't know what they were expecting. He has consistently sat at around 2.5 GAA and about .920 SV%. Last year he was almost exactly at that mark.

 

[vikingGoalie]

perhaps some of the explanation for Vokoun's play is he isn't as accustomed as Fleury is to the ridiculous chances you face courtesy of your own team

Vokoun has always been a goalie that looks better the more work you give him. Vokoun was unquestionably playing better the first ~10 games the penguins played this year. He looked calm was playing the puck,etc. Dunno what happened but he's flopping on the ice like a fish now, I've never seen him do that, ever. I guess Meloche has done his work...

That said, the biggest thing I don't like is that Crosby needs to step up and call his teammates out. He's not necessarily their friend, he's their Captain first. When is the last time Crosby has called for a team meeting to tell his teammates to get their heads out of their *****? I can't recall one ever.

+++Martin, wow if this guy keeps playing like this he will get some consideration in Norris trophy talks. He's playing that good right now.

-Sutter? What happened, perhaps the offensive black hole (aka TK) has pulled him in. But the guy can't shoot/score to save his life right now.

+Jeffrey. It's not always pretty, but all he does is score goals and play sound hockey. I'd love to see this guy get a full season with the pens.

--Niskanen + Letang. This pairing is garbage. Two small guys that get pushed around. Our defensive lineup should be. Letang-Despres, Martin-Orpik, Bortuzzo-England. I know Niskanane skill wise is better the Despres/Bortuzzo (now) but it's about chemistry and how we match up. I'd much rather see him traded as part of a move for a good winger.

+Bennett, If you watch this kid he is always anticipating the play and in the right spot. His skating is definitely better then what I expected. He won't break out until next season I think but we have a gem here.

 

[Shwag33]

And this is a hockey board where we discuss every aspect of the game. In fact - that's what the post-game threads are for.

Except everyone just turns into. FIRE BYLSMA.

 

[Tender Rip]

Look, if we were just getting blown out from the drop of the puck, and looked bad for 60 minutes, then I would agree that they were tuning out DB. However, they usually come out ready to play, and jump out to a lot of leads. That is usually the sign that the coaches still have their respect and response.

They are NOT tuning out DB. They seem to love him!
Outside of KIRK turning purple thinking about how Malkin should dislike DB, nothing indicates that 'tuning out' is a problem like it was with Therrien. Here the problem is not that they don't do what he tells them, it is that they do! Obviously he doesn't tell them to do make colossal individiual mistakes, but 'our game' is Bylsma. And it sucks.

I agree that you can't fire all of the players.....but you can fire one. Shero traded a piece of our core away in Whitney in 2009. Don't you think that sends a message. What if we moved someone like Orpik, or Letang? Do you think that would send a message? Take it one step further...what if that trade of say Orpik, was in a deal that gets Perry in return. Does that change the dynamic at all?

Whitney was already redundant and played terrible hockey when he was traded. He was not a part of the core for any other reason than having a long term contract. Indeed he was the most obvious trade candidate we had. Trading Letang or Orpik who are both fundamental for us is not even in the ball park.

Rather than trading fundamental players to send a message, he COULD start out benching or decreasing minutes for a vet, when his performances merit it. This instead of simply sitting those lowest on the food chain irrespective of their performances. The man is benching Vitale from time to time! Despres who has done superbly is getting benched. Jeffrey got benched for a handful of games after playing his best game of the year and being the better fit Malkin/Neal has had all season.

 

[Shrimper]

I was going to take screen dumps of the power-play. But the pics are too big. Might try again later.

 

[Ogelthorpe]

perhaps some of the explanation for Vokoun's play is he isn't as accustomed as Fleury is to the ridiculous chances you face courtesy of your own team

Vokoun has always been a goalie that looks better the more work you give him. Vokoun was unquestionably playing better the first ~10 games the penguins played this year. He looked calm was playing the puck,etc. Dunno what happened but he's flopping on the ice like a fish now, I've never seen him do that, ever. I guess Meloche has done his work...

That said, the biggest thing I don't like is that Crosby needs to step up and call his teammates out. He's not necessarily their friend, he's their Captain first. When is the last time Crosby has called for a team meeting to tell his teammates to get their heads out of their *****? I can't recall one ever.

+++Martin, wow if this guy keeps playing like this he will get some consideration in Norris trophy talks. He's playing that good right now.

-Sutter? What happened, perhaps the offensive black hole (aka TK) has pulled him in. But the guy can't shoot/score to save his life right now.

+Jeffrey. It's not always pretty, but all he does is score goals and play sound hockey. I'd love to see this guy get a full season with the pens.

--Niskanen + Letang. This pairing is garbage. Two small guys that get pushed around. Our defensive lineup should be. Letang-Despres, Martin-Orpik, Bortuzzo-England. I know Niskanane skill wise is better the Despres/Bortuzzo (now) but it's about chemistry and how we match up. I'd much rather see him traded as part of a move for a good winger.

+Bennett, If you watch this kid he is always anticipating the play and in the right spot. His skating is definitely better then what I expected. He won't break out until next season I think but we have a gem here.

I agree with the bolded 100%. I also posted something similar a few pages back and got nothing but the typical "Why does Sid need to do everything" response. I'm not saying trade him, or take away his C, but simply made the comment that when the guy with the C call people out, it usually gets a good response provided they respect the Captain.....I think Sid has the team's respect.

 

[Captain Hook]

Except everyone just turns into. FIRE BYLSMA.

I agree but you can't win that battle. Best to just avoid this place after losses if you have a hard time tolerating complaining, whining, overreacting, wanting the coach fired and just the all around negativity that comes with a loss around here.