Post-Game Talk: Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Red Wings - Yiiiiiiiiikes...

[MtlPenFan]

Subban gets walked quite a few times in the games I've seen. Makes risky passes. Can hold onto the puck way too long. And has been benched by his coach numerous times.

It's ****ing stupid that guy is viewed as twice the player Letang is.

He's THREE times the player actually. I watch every Habs game. It's not even close.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Why not just put Letang and Ehrhoff on the points and put Malkin down low? Also, Letang suffers from the same issue all of our players do on the power play, he never ****ing shoots the puck.

I'd love that. I just want Tochett to put Letang in Whitney's old spot and tell him his job is to shoot the damn puck every time he can see the net. He cannot be in a position where he needs to handle the puck and make decisions. Either make him a trigger-man or take him off the top unit.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Two years ago, Subban and 58 were about the same. Two talented boneheads that put up big numbers. I thought 58 was pretty good through 4 this year, but after games like last night it's becoming difficult to deny that, overall, Subban's smartening up a lot faster than KL is.

Ya Subban kept getting better. Letang has gotten worse if anything.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Two years ago, Subban and 58 were about the same. Two talented boneheads that put up big numbers. I thought 58 was pretty good through 4 this year, but after games like last night it's becoming difficult to deny that, overall, Subban's smartening up a lot faster than KL is.

I still feel like it's environment, not talent. Subban got tough love when he needed it from Therrien of course and he had a solid support group in Gorges and Markov before Gorges was moved. Subban was developed proper. This team, I don't know if they ever got him the right mentor or help or ever benched him when he needed the hard lesson.

 

[WayneSid9987]

I'd love that. I just want Tochett to put Letang in Whitney's old spot and tell him his job is to shoot the damn puck every time he can see the net. He cannot be in a position where he needs to handle the puck and make decisions. Either make him a trigger-man or take him off the top unit.

Yep. This.
I prefer Erhoff, Maata, Martin as the point D-Man.

 

[gordie]

Oh **** no he wasn't. Oh **** no. This is worse than your Despres on Helm nonsense yesterday.

Whatever flaws Subban had is the usual growing pains stuff. Therrien didn't coach him up, just had to prove he's the boss for the sake of it, much of it to the team's detriment.

The kid is awesome, plain and simple. Letang's a VETERAN and still makes the same stupid mistakes he always has.

You mean Subban wasn't fighting with teammates before Therrien arrived. You mean he had a strong sense of discipline and keeping himself under control to the point of being a Norris Trophy winner. Check your facts. Subban arrived because he is under the guiding hand of Michel Therrien.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Also MJ isn't as horrible with defensemen as one is lead to believe.
He did develop Seth Jones and Pouliot among others.

 

[gordie]

Also MJ isn't as horrible with defensemen as one is lead to believe.
He did develop Seth Jones and Pouliot among others.

Good point. Too early to tell with Mike Johnston in that area.

 

[Gurglesons]

Ya Subban kept getting better. Letang has gotten worse if anything.

Letang looks really good on the PK this year, which is a new development. I would even go as far to say he has been our best player on the PK this year.

 

[MtlPenFan]

You mean Subban wasn't fighting with teammates before Therrien arrived. You mean he had a strong sense of discipline and keeping himself under control to the point of being a Norris Trophy winner. Check your facts. Subban arrived because he is under the guiding hand of Michel Therrien.

I'm talking about play on the ice. If you watch as much hockey as you pretend you do, you'll remember he was easily the best player for the Habs in the 2010 series.

Guiding hand of Therrien? He gave him tough love for the sake of it. Montreal radio all day they'd be griping that Therrien was doing it as a power trip more than anything, and I'd have to agree. There's be a game where Subban was the best player on the ice, and Therrien would simply dick him around for no reason at all. I know. I live here. But I suppose you know better.

Subban has his screw ups just like any D-man like that does, but his mistakes are often based on overconfidence, not stupidity. You should watch more games that don't involve the Pens. I saw the depth of your hockey knowledge last night with the Kronwall goal.

 

[mpp9]

He's THREE times the player actually. I watch every Habs game. It's not even close.

That's nice.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

In brief stints in the past, Letang looked good on the PK but was rarely used there because we had the likes of Eaton, Orpik, Scuderi, etc over the years and he got very little time there. I think seeing Maatta and Letang more on the PK is a good thing, but when Bortuzzo is back and if Harrington becomes a regular, I wouldn't mind it being those 4 that get more of that duty.

Letang has it in him to be as good, it's early, people are freaking out and it's a half a dozen games in.

 

[Kristopher Letang]

Letang isn't the biggest problem in our D. Scuderi and Martin are worse than him atm. And they are making 8M+ combined. One is UFA after this year and a potential asset to get a top-6 fix, the other is an old guy locked up for years.

Anyway, like I said, people are overracting it's getting rediculous. If Letang sucks this year (Not just the powerplay), then trade him. I had faith in him that he just needed a better coach to be the guy we think he can be. Now it's to soon to see if the coach factor made an effect on him. But yeah, Letang is making stupid decision on the Powerplay and the only reason I can find is that Tocchet is keeping him on the first powerplay to have a fast guy who can cancel the opposition puck clearing attempts.

 

[MtlPenFan]

Letang isn't the biggest problem in our D. Scuderi and Martin are worse than him atm. And they are making 8M+ combined. One is UFA after this year and a potential asset to get a top-6 fix, the other is an old guy locked up for years.

Anyway, like I said, people are overracting it's getting rediculous. If Letang sucks this year (Not just the powerplay), then trade him. I had faith in him that he just needed a better coach to be the guy we think he can be. Now it's to soon to see if the coach factor made an effect on him. But yeah, Letang is making stupid decision on the Powerplay and the only reason I can find is that Tocchet is keeping him on the first powerplay to have a fast guy who can cancel the opposition puck clearing attempts.

You can't coach stupid.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

He's THREE times the player actually. I watch every Habs game. It's not even close.

Remember when Subban was benched and everyone was like oh he's a liability, good that Therrien is being hard on him.

How much do you think that helped Subban figure stuff out? He was then used as a SHUTDOWN defender with Gill of all people, against Crosby and crew in 2010.

Letang like Crosby and others, have to be re-programmed from the horse **** that was the Bylsma system. I don't even think Reirden was that bad and we all know how good Granato was a PK coach. No one was held accountable, that includes Crosby, Malkin, and Letang. The funny thing is the only person that was held accountable was Fleury and they went about it the wrong way, who knows what is wrong with him, sports shrinks, etc.

 

[billybudd]

I still feel like it's environment, not talent. Subban got tough love when he needed it from Therrien of course and he had a solid support group in Gorges and Markov before Gorges was moved. Subban was developed proper. This team, I don't know if they ever got him the right mentor or help or ever benched him when he needed the hard lesson.

Yeah. It's very possible that the core just needs deprogrammed, which will take a while. After games like yesterday, that should definitely be at the top of Johnston, Tocchet, and Agnew's "to-do" list.

 

[Gurglesons]

In brief stints in the past, Letang looked good on the PK but was rarely used there because we had the likes of Eaton, Orpik, Scuderi, etc over the years and he got very little time there. I think seeing Maatta and Letang more on the PK is a good thing, but when Bortuzzo is back and if Harrington becomes a regular, I wouldn't mind it being those 4 that get more of that duty.

Letang has it in him to be as good, it's early, people are freaking out and it's a half a dozen games in.

I want our penalty kill to be aggressive. Playing players like Orpik, Scuderi, Bort, etc. keeps us hemmed up in our zone with our only option being a big dump. It is the same reason a player like Adams shouldn't be on our PK. I would run units of Sutter / Goc - Dupuis / Spaling and Malkin / Crosby - Dupuis / Spaling with defensive pairings of Maatta /Letang - Martin with Hoff and Despres fitting in when we need them. Turn the puck the other way and get short handed situations.

 

[gordie]

I'm talking about play on the ice. If you watch as much hockey as you pretend you do, you'll remember he was easily the best player for the Habs in the 2010 series.

Guiding hand of Therrien? He gave him tough love for the sake of it. Montreal radio all day they'd be griping that Therrien was doing it as a power trip more than anything, and I'd have to agree. There's be a game where Subban was the best player on the ice, and Therrien would simply dick him around for no reason at all. I know. I live here. But I suppose you know better.

Subban has his screw ups just like any D-man like that does, but his mistakes are often based on overconfidence, not stupidity. You should watch more games that don't involve the Pens.

Sounds like you hold Therrien in some sort of contempt. Until Therrien arrived Subban was all over the place and certainly didn't look like a Norris winner. Even one of his biggest fans Don Cherry showed a game where an opposing player purposely shot the puck at Subban and Cherry was lamenting the fact "why does he get everybody to hate him so much". Seems to have changed under Therrien, especially the being a distraction part.

 

[MtlPenFan]

Remember when Subban was benched and everyone was like oh he's a liability, good that Therrien is being hard on him.

How much do you think that helped Subban figure stuff out? He was then used as a SHUTDOWN defender with Gill of all people, against Crosby and crew in 2010.

Letang like Crosby and others, have to be re-programmed from the horse **** that was the Bylsma system. I don't even think Reirden was that bad and we all know how good Granato was a PK coach. No one was held accountable, that includes Crosby, Malkin, and Letang. The funny thing is the only person that was held accountable was Fleury and they went about it the wrong way, who knows what is wrong with him, sports shrinks, etc.

Who's everyone?

It was nonsense. If I can liken it to anything, it's the Beau Bennett treatment. He'd play a great game, then get benched for no reason.

All that was between Therrien and Subban was a pissing contest.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Letang looks really good on the PK this year, which is a new development. I would even go as far to say he has been our best player on the PK this year.

Maatta has been the best there, but you're right Letang has been solid there. I don't think he's been nearly as bad as people are saying. Aside from on the powerplay. He's been awful on the powerplay.

 

[MtlPenFan]

Sounds like you hold Therrien in some sort of contempt. Until Therrien arrived Subban was all over the place and certainly didn't look like a Norris winner. Even one of his biggest fans Don Cherry showed a game where an opposing player purposely shot the puck at Subban and Cherry was lamenting the fact "why does he get everybody to hate him so much". Seems to have changed under Therrien, especially the being a distraction part.

How many Montreal games do you watch to say he's "All over the place?"

If you have an agenda, you can isolate any player and show guys screwing up. Difference between Letang and Subban is WORLDS apart.

 

[Gurglesons]

Maatta has been the best there, but you're right Letang has been solid there. I don't think he's been nearly as bad as people are saying. Aside from on the powerplay. He's been awful on the powerplay.

He's been bad, but let us not forget that we are the number one power play in the league. Granted, Letang has zero power play points.

 

[Kristopher Letang]

I'm talking about play on the ice. If you watch as much hockey as you pretend you do, you'll remember he was easily the best player for the Habs in the 2010 series.

Guiding hand of Therrien? He gave him tough love for the sake of it. Montreal radio all day they'd be griping that Therrien was doing it as a power trip more than anything, and I'd have to agree. There's be a game where Subban was the best player on the ice, and Therrien would simply dick him around for no reason at all. I know. I live here. But I suppose you know better.

Subban has his screw ups just like any D-man like that does, but his mistakes are often based on overconfidence, not stupidity. You should watch more games that don't involve the Pens. I saw the depth of your hockey knowledge last night with the Kronwall goal.

That line is so stupid. Trying to do it all by himself is stupid and loosing the puck when trying to go against the system is stupid. Therrien wanted everyone to buy into the system and didn't allow people to do things by their own.

 

[Mordax]

yes, but you need changes, right?

Sometimes I wish there was a way to see how NHL teams would turn out if the kneejerk-armchair-GMs of the world actually ran the show. I imagine it kind of being like a car crash. Absolutely terrible, but yet fascinating to watch

 

[Zbynek]

Ehrhoff and Martin were playing great there until Datsyuk and Zetterberg took over. Not really understanding the hate on Ehrhoff so far: to me he is our most calm defenseman. We need that in our D-core. I personally love what he's brought and still hope to see him extended. Martin obviously blew it in OT, but let's be fair guys, DET seized the momentum and just took over at the end of this game. We got Babcocked, massively.

I saw a post near the beginning saying if Fleury was in net that we would have all been hating on him instead of applauding Greiss for his effort last night. Lol, no. If Fleury was in net it would have been a complete blow-out. We get zero points and the defense looks even worse than it already did. T Greezy made some HUGE saves in this one, more in the first 57 minutes of play than Fleury has made in the first 5 games. Give it a rest with the Fleury defending. This team plays more confidently when its goalie covers the damn puck and doesn't do stupid **** behind (and INSIDE) the net. We fed off of the momentum caused by Greiss' saves. The Duper goal specifically came right after a pretty nice one.

That being said, our team didn't play confidently last night, and that was due to 87's horrible night. The game against Philly was the worst game I've seen Letang play (barring his first game back against CBJ in the playoffs last year) in a LONG time. The same can be said about Sid last night. He let Detroit get in his head and Kronwall and Zetterberg completely owned him last night. Kunitz gets elbowed? It's not your place to stand up for him and take a penalty Sid. Please tell me how putting 14 and 87 in the box is helping the team; it's not. Also, as much as I love what Downie has brought to this team (whatever he's brought, this team has been sorely missing it for years), he showed flashes of being an idiot. He clearly defied Tocchet and I don't like the implications of that. Flash forward to him doing that against BOS/PHI in a crucial game of the playoffs...

Like many have suggested, this team needs another identity change; trading Neal wasn't enough. Obviously, it would have been nice to have moved Letang when we could have, and that's why so many of us were in support of it, but that's likely not an option now. The way I see it is we need to free up a spot on D to allow Bortuzzo and Despres to be constantly in the lineup. Sooner Martin goes the better. Hopefully he can fetch us a leadership guy. I hate to say it, but the 87/71/58 core brings absolutely zero leadership. It's pretty sad.

Comeau...what a signing by JR. Truly a diamond in the rough. He fits in great here. He's been doing all the right things and throws the body.

Decent game by Spaling. He hasn't done anything flashy but the guy doesn't make a lot of mistakes. The same can be said about Goc, who's just an excellent calming presence at center. We're lucky as hell to have all 3 of Spaling/Goc/Sutter. Really makes you think that Sutter is expendable...