Post-Game Talk: Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Red Wings - Yiiiiiiiiikes...

[gordie]

How many Montreal games do you watch to say he's "All over the place?"

You mean that Therrien didn't bench him and create all kinds of talk in the Montreal media about Subban and his future? Brilliant stuff by Therrien. He certainly knows what buttons to push to get the most out of his players who have the talent.

By the way it's back to the Pens only talk for me. You can discuss Montreal laundry business with other Canadiens fans.

 

[MtlPenFan]

That line is so stupid. Trying to do it all by himself is stupid and loosing the puck when trying to go against the system is stupid. Therrien wanted everyone to buy into the system and didn't allow people to do things by their own.

You make it sound like it's every time all the time, and a constant theme. Nothing can be further from the truth.

On the occasion he ****s up, it's because he thinks he can pull a move off that he can't, just like with any young player who eventually learns his lesson. Regardless of whether it's under Martin or Therrien, he's shown steady improvement every year because of how talented he is. Letang has done the opposite.

Again, how many Habs games do you people watch?

 

[MtlPenFan]

You mean that Therrien didn't bench him and create all kinds of talk in the Montreal media about Subban and his future? Brilliant stuff by Therrien. He certainly knows what buttons to push to get the most out of his players who have the talent.

By the way it's back to the Pens only talk for me. You can discuss Montreal laundry business with other Canadiens fans.

We're not talking about benchings, but talent and ability on the ice. Yes, he created a storm be benching him and everyone in the media (and Montreal media knows their stuff) were against it because he's easily their best player AND the benching was unwarranted to start with.

Still haven't answered how many Habs games you've watched over the last 5 years.

Sure, let's discuss the depth of your hockey knowledge by discussing how Despres should have handled Helm last night

 

[gordie]

You make it sound like it's every time all the time, and a constant theme. Nothing can be further from the truth.

On the occasion he ****s up, it's because he thinks he can pull a move off that he can't, just like with any young player who eventually learns his lesson. Regardless of whether it's under Martin or Therrien, he's shown steady improvement every year because of how talented he is. Letang has done the opposite.

Again, how many Habs games do you people watch?

The ones involving the Pens. We aren't fans of the Montreal Canadiens.

 

[gordie]

We're not talking about benchings, but talent and ability on the ice. Yes, he created a storm be benching him and everyone in the media (and Montreal media knows their stuff) were against it because he's easily their best player AND the benching was unwarranted to start with.

Sure, let's discuss the depth of your hockey knowledge by discussing how Despres should have handled Helm last night

He didn't handle Helm or take that extra step that was needed, so you must have missed the point.

 

[Kristopher Letang]

You make it sound like it's every time all the time, and a constant theme. Nothing can be further from the truth.

On the occasion he ****s up, it's because he thinks he can pull a move off that he can't, just like with any young player who eventually learns his lesson.

Again, how many Habs games do you people watch?

I'm from Montreal, I watch around 50 games/year. Et oui je parle francais ...

You are the one making it sound like Therrien is benching Subban every games... It's not true. When he **** it up with a selfish penalty , a stupid play , or when he tries to do it by himself and fails , he gets benched. I already seen him getting benched the first year when he tried a stupid play and didn't fail, but he still got benched because it went against the ''Buy into the system'' mentality. Subban is still maturing and Therrien knows it, he also know what Subban can be so he was doing what he was capable of to do it. The stupid thing is doing like Bylsma and benching few people and letting the others do whatever they want.

“I’ve got a great relationship with P.K. Subban†and insisted repeatedly that he has no fear whatsoever that his star performer will tune him out.

“We communicate a lot. He understands our (benching) decision, by the way, and he totally agrees,†Therrien said. “There’s not one player who wants to be treated differently, especially with those sorts of things.â€

«Notre relation? Coacher, c'est coacher. Il faut s'assurer de soutirer le maximum des joueurs. Je suis très conscient de son talent et je sais exactement où ce gars-là est capable d'aller. On prend les moyens pour qu'il s'y rende. C'est un challenge que n'importe quel coach veut avoir.»

I can continue years copy-pasting quotes like this. But if you are making a judgement from shows like l'antichambre or some others stupid shows in Montreal (Cuz in Montreal it's a religion and lots of stupid ppl make bing things from non-fact) it's not a good way to debate. Now , can you come out with something that clearly validate your point?

 

[MtlPenFan]

The ones involving the Pens. We aren't fans of the Montreal Canadiens.

Thanks for making my point.

We're discussing the abilities of two different players. One is clearly superior to the other and he happens to play for a team I get to watch a lot because of where I live, so I'm better equipped to handle that "debate"

But I suppose a few snippets off Google or TSN is enough for you. Carry on.

 

[mpp9]

I saw Subban play live against us last season. He was benched b/c he was playing like an idiot. Turning the puck over left and right. And putting in a pathetic effort on Sutter's SH goal.

I also saw him get embarrassed against Tampa this season. Specifically by Callahan.

I guess Subban just does that when I'm watching.

He's awesome on the PP and steps his game up in the playoffs. Good for him.

Calling him three times the player Letang is. Uh. I don't need to watch a single Habs game to tell you that's hyperbole. You can say he's better. That's fine.

 

[gordie]

Thanks for making my point.

We're discussing the abilities of two different players. One is clearly superior to the other and he happens to play for a team I get to watch a lot because of where I live, so I'm better equipped to handle that "debate"

But I suppose a few snippets off Google or TSN is enough for you. Carry on.

So, we can't comment on Subban because we don't watch enough of Montreal like you do but everything you say about Letang from afar, we should take as Gospel. Gotcha!!!l

 

[MtlPenFan]

I'm from Montreal, I watch around 50 games/year. Et oui je parle francais ...

You are the one making it sound like Therrien is benching Subban every games... It's not true. When he **** it up with a selfish penalty , a stupid play , or when he tries to do it by himself and fails , he gets benched. I already seen him getting benched the first year when he tried a stupid play and didn't fail, but he still got benched because it went against the ''Buy into the system'' mentality. Subban is still maturing and Therrien knows it, he also know what Subban can be so he was doing what he was capable of to do it. The stupid thing is doing like Bylsma and benching few people and letting the others do whatever they want.

“I’ve got a great relationship with P.K. Subban†and insisted repeatedly that he has no fear whatsoever that his star performer will tune him out.

“We communicate a lot. He understands our (benching) decision, by the way, and he totally agrees,†Therrien said. “There’s not one player who wants to be treated differently, especially with those sorts of things.â€

«Notre relation? Coacher, c'est coacher. Il faut s'assurer de soutirer le maximum des joueurs. Je suis très conscient de son talent et je sais exactement où ce gars-là est capable d'aller. On prend les moyens pour qu'il s'y rende. C'est un challenge que n'importe quel coach veut avoir.»

I can continue years copy-pasting quotes like this. But if you are making a judgement from shows like l'antichambre or some others stupid shows in Montreal (Cuz in Montreal it's a religion and lots of stupid ppl make bing things from non-fact) it's not a good way to debate. Now , can you come out with something that clearly validate your point?

Je pense que tu m'as mal compris. Je compare le talent des deux joueurs sur la glace.

In other words, this just started with me saying Subban is far, far better than Letang. Then I had to hear about how Therrien constantly benches Subban for poor play and that because of that, he's no better than Letang.

My argument is that while he does screw up here and there, a lot of those benchings were just Therrien flexing his muscles. On TSN690 they would lose their minds when Subban would get benched or wasn't out there in the last minute to defend leads, and they had every reason to be.

Please tell me you wouldn't rather have Subban over Letang.

 

[Gurglesons]

Please tell me you wouldn't rather have Subban over Letang.

I think most people would agree with that, but saying that Letang isn't worth 3.5 million dollars is just ridiculous. Letang is close in value to Subban that is why Subban is making 1.5 million dollars more than him.

 

[billybudd]

I saw Subban play live against us last season. He was benched b/c he was playing like an idiot. Turning the puck over left and right. And putting in a pathetic effort on Sutter's SH goal.

I also saw him get embarrassed against Tampa this season. Specifically by Callahan.

I guess Subban just does that when I'm watching.

He's awesome on the PP and steps his game up in the playoffs. Good for him.

Calling him three times the player Letang is. Uh. I don't need to watch a single Habs game to tell you that's hyperbole. You can say he's better. That's fine.

Pk's still a bonehead sometimes (it was a gas when Habs fans were trying to say he was "great" defensively two years ago), but I do think he's making improvements in that area, overall, at a faster rate than Letang. Though, up until the last two, 58 hadn't been much of a moron this year at all.

 

[MtlPenFan]

I saw Subban play live against us last season. He was benched b/c he was playing like an idiot. Turning the puck over left and right. And putting in a pathetic effort on Sutter's SH goal.

I also saw him get embarrassed against Tampa this season. Specifically by Callahan.

I guess Subban just does that when I'm watching.

He's awesome on the PP and steps his game up in the playoffs. Good for him.

Calling him three times the player Letang is. Uh. I don't need to watch a single Habs game to tell you that's hyperbole. You can say he's better. That's fine.

Everybody gets walked. It's happened to Doughty. It's happened to Chara. It happens to Keith. Maatta got walked yesterday. It happens. So does a bad pass or a bad move here and there.

I'm talking about overall value to a team. Subban is ELITE on the PK, on the PP, carrying the play and controlling the flow of a game. If he ever gets injured, that team is completely ****ed. He's that important. He's also so important that management basically stepped in and told Bergevin to give him what he wants during contract negotiations.

Does he have the constant brain farts that Subban does? Does he pass when he's supposed to shoot, and shoot when he's supposed to pass? Go on the Habs forum and try to get more than TWO fans to say that they're frustrated with the way he plays. It won't happen.

And it's funny how you isolate one moment from the Tampa series (in which Tampa got swept) when Subban was by far Montreal's MVP during last year's run. He also went around the net and made a Tampa defender so dizzy he harpooned himself into the mesh, then made a perfect pass to a teammate for a goal.

 

[MtlPenFan]

I think most people would agree with that, but saying that Letang isn't worth 3.5 million dollars is just ridiculous. Letang is close in value to Subban that is why Subban is making 1.5 million dollars more than him.

If you're going to take "Half that value" literally and need that to make some sort of point, then go with God I guess.

But if you think he's close in value to Subban, you're way off.

 

[Gurglesons]

And it's funny how you isolate one moment from the Tampa series (in which Tampa got swept) when Subban was by far Montreal's MVP during last year's run. He also went around the net and made a Tampa defender so dizzy he harpooned himself into the mesh, then made a perfect pass to a teammate for a goal.

Letang was our best D during last year's playoffs also.

 

[MtlPenFan]

Letang was our best D during last year's playoffs also.

Not their best D, their best PLAYER.

Calling Letang our best D considering our Corps last year is like someone boasting he's the tallest midget.

 

[sf expat71]

I wanna give an extra shout out to Martin and Sid last night. They were both horrendous. Martin was ticking me off last night with how weak he was on the boards, and I would be just fine without ever seeing Sid try the pass across the ice through two defenders again...

 

[Gurglesons]

Not their best D, their best PLAYER.

Calling Letang our best D considering our Corps last year is like someone boasting he's the tallest midget.

Your asking for reasons why Letang is close to Subban in terms of contract. I'm giving them to you. Letang is not a superstar defensemen, but at the same time he justifies his pay. Letang has been going through numerous injuries and health issues the past two years. He is now playing in a complete different system and with a player in Maatta who is supremely talented, but suffers the same faults in his game as Kris. Give him the benefit of the doubt, and I'm sure he'll justify his price tag after these atrocious two games.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

It was a terrible game and I think we are all a bit angry, but some of the nonsense in this thread is embarrassing. Malkin, Conn Smythe winner is not a "playoff type performer"? Malkin has low hockey iq? Let's focus on the things wrong with the team before we start trying to fix things that aren't broken.

 

[66-30-33]

It was a terrible game and I think we are all a bit angry, but some of the nonsense in this thread is embarrassing. Malkin, Conn Smythe winner is not a "playoff type performer"? Malkin has low hockey iq? Let's focus on the things wrong with the team before we start trying to fix things that aren't broken.

Ok, Bylsma is at fault. Damn him and his smug look!!!! We didn't "get to our game" last night.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

It was a terrible game and I think we are all a bit angry, but some of the nonsense in this thread is embarrassing. Malkin, Conn Smythe winner is not a "playoff type performer"? Malkin has low hockey iq? Let's focus on the things wrong with the team before we start trying to fix things that aren't broken.

The thing is too is that, while Crosby is obviously more valuable and a much more consistent player, he has some of the same faults as Malkin but you'll never hear many people say it.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Ok, Bylsma is at fault. Damn him and his smug look!!!! We didn't "get to our game" last night.

What does Bylsma have to do with my comment? If you think Malkin is one of this team's problems then you are clueless.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Ok, Bylsma is at fault. Damn him and his smug look!!!! We didn't "get to our game" last night.

Bylsma took their ability to get to their game.


The board does seem to have had a minor meltdown after that game, I did something reasonable and pretended it never happened, and then came back to this.

It's 6 games into fixing the mess, it just sucks to watch them try to fix it or maybe they're not trying, idk. Then there's the system, and them learning it and finding out about its problems.



Kris Letang - 0G, 4A, 4P, 0ES, -4
Olli Maatta - 1G, 3A, 4P, 4ES, -2
Paul Martin - 1G, 1A, 2P, 2ES, +4
Christian Ehrhoff - 0G, 2A, 2P, 2ES, +4
Simon Despres - 0G, 2A, 2P, 2ES, +1
Rob Scuderi - 0G, 0A, 0P, 0ES, 0

So Letang isn't getting points at ES, but all of the other defensemen are except for Scuderi. Scuderi while being sheltered has managed to be neutral, he may as well not be playing and I don't know how he's managed it. Maatta and Letang are the only negative defensemen.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Kris Letang - 0G, 4A, 4P, 0ES, -4
Olli Maatta - 1G, 3A, 4P, 4ES, -2
Paul Martin - 1G, 1A, 2P, 2ES, +4
Christian Ehrhoff - 0G, 2A, 2P, 2ES, +4
Simon Despres - 0G, 2A, 2P, 2ES, +1
Rob Scuderi - 0G, 0A, 0P, 0ES, 0

So Letang isn't getting points at ES, but all of the other defensemen are except for Scuderi. Scuderi while being sheltered has managed to be neutral, he may as well not be playing and I don't know how he's managed it. Maatta and Letang are the only negative defensemen.

Further proof the +/- stat is garbage without context. Judging by the above, one would think Martin and Ehrhoff have been good, while Maatta has been below par. Yet, Martin and Ehrhoff have largely been garbage this season, while Maatta's consistently been the only bright light on the blueline.

 

[mpp9]

Everybody gets walked. It's happened to Doughty. It's happened to Chara. It happens to Keith. Maatta got walked yesterday. It happens. So does a bad pass or a bad move here and there.

It's happened quite a bit in the games I've watched. Letang has his shortcomings. But I've rarely ever seen him fall asleep when being challenged one on one.

I watch LA, Chicago, St. Louis and the Avs when I'm not watching the Pens. Maybe I've only caught Subban's bad games.

I'm talking about overall value to a team. Subban is ELITE on the PK, on the PP, carrying the play and controlling the flow of a game. If he ever gets injured, that team is completely ****ed. He's that important. He's also so important that management basically stepped in and told Bergevin to give him what he wants during contract negotiations.

They don't have Crosby and Malkin. And they don't have the young studs on the blue line like we do. We're not arguing value to their respective teams.

Does he have the constant brain farts that Subban does? Does he pass when he's supposed to shoot, and shoot when he's supposed to pass? Go on the Habs forum and try to get more than TWO fans to say that they're frustrated with the way he plays. It won't happen.

Letang needs to be more sure of himself. He's frustrating for sure.

And it's funny how you isolate one moment from the Tampa series (in which Tampa got swept) when Subban was by far Montreal's MVP during last year's run. He also went around the net and made a Tampa defender so dizzy he harpooned himself into the mesh, then made a perfect pass to a teammate for a goal

Actually I'm talking about a game vs the Bolts a couple weeks back. He was hot garbage.