Value of: Players Minnesota should consider trading for, and what you’d give up for them

[HanSolo]

Wish Vegas could get Zucker (best prospect Vegas ever developed) but I'd imagine the ask wouldn't be worth it.

 

[Meeqs]

All it takes in the playoffs is for Dubnyk to get hot and go on a run. This team has consistently shown that they can compete in this league with the 6 straight playoff appearances. Yes, they've faltered in the playoffs. However, last year against the Jets we were down Suter and Spurgeon was probably at 50% since he was obviously rushed back to play. Also, we lost Parise right after we won our first game to make the series 1-2.

This team doesn't need to be blown up. They need to change things up by making "hockey" trades. Going after young players that have already shown competence in the NHL (Nylander) are who they should be targeting and they absolutely have the assets to make moves like that.

If you think the team can do the same thing its done for the past 4-5 years and will some how find different results then I wish the best of luck to you with that. They aren't even in the same league as WPG or NSH.

When you have to say things like "if our goalie stands on his head" or "if we get a star from a 15-20 OA pick" then those statements themselves should highlight the reality of the situation. That Min simply isn't good enough.

 

[AKL]

Wish Vegas could get Zucker (best prospect Vegas ever developed) but I'd imagine the ask wouldn't be worth it.

We’d be looking for a hockey trade. I would entertain something around Zucker for Tuch and a moderate + as a Wild fan. Though I somehow doubt you would.

 

[AKL]

If you think the team can do the same thing its done for the past 4-5 years and will some how find different results then I wish the best of luck to you with that. They aren't even in the same league as WPG or NSH.

When you have to say things like "if our goalie stands on his head" or "if we get a star from a 15-20 OA pick" then those statements themselves should highlight the reality of the situation. That Min simply isn't good enough.

Pretty crazy to say something like this when you have teams like Washington and San Jose who never made it out of the second round either until they made it to the finals one year without really changing a whole lot.

Especially when you consider that the Stanley Cup champs only had four more wins than us.

And the team they beat arguably has less star power than we do.

 

[Spurgeon]

If you think the team can do the same thing its done for the past 4-5 years and will some how find different results then I wish the best of luck to you with that. They aren't even in the same league as WPG or NSH.

When you have to say things like "if our goalie stands on his head" or "if we get a star from a 15-20 OA pick" then those statements themselves should highlight the reality of the situation. That Min simply isn't good enough.

There haven't been too many teams in this league that have won the Cup without a goalie standing on their head.

 

[Meeqs]

There haven't been too many teams in this league that have won the Cup without a goalie standing on their head.

Sure you definitely need your goaltender to play well, but thats assuming you are relatively close to the teams you'd be going up against. Look at the Min WPG series that just happened. Dubby getting .10% more SV% would have changed nothing.

Its just unrealistic.

 

[Spurgeon]

Sure you definitely need your goaltender to play well, but thats assuming you are relatively close to the teams you'd be going up against. Look at the Min WPG series that just happened. Dubby getting .10% more SV% would have changed nothing.

Its just unrealistic.

You underestimate the importance of Suter and the stability he brings to this team. The series would have been much closer if we were all healthy.

 

[Bazeek]

If your plan is to simply "get incredibly lucky in the draft" its a **** plan and if your plan is to trade rape a team then you'd better hope your GM gets to calling PC, MB, PD and Tallon as much as humanly possible.

Either way Min isn't a single player away from contending. Staal essentially had a top 10 year last year and they were still the easiest team to beat in the 1st round. They will have to rebuild, even if you want to believe it or not.

The point is that there is not a single way to get these guys; even a cursory look around the league shows that there are many ways to do it. Every single one of them involves a good share of luck. And there's a non-zero chance that Minnesota already has done it with Kaprizov, but the jury's still out there.

Minnesota is not a single player away from contending, but stripping the team down for futures is premature.

 

[Meeqs]

You underestimate the importance of Suter and the stability he brings to this team. The series would have been much closer if we were all healthy.

Min scored: on average 1 goal a game
WPG scored: on average 4 goals a game

Many games Min was more than doubled up in shots most nights.

The issue is here that the series was never close, Min was never really in it. If min had Suter that would have helped for sure, maybe even would have won an extra game. However if you think Min was only a player or a hot goalie away then you are fooling yourself and being unrealistic.

 

[HanSolo]

We’d be looking for a hockey trade. I would entertain something around Zucker for Tuch and a moderate + as a Wild fan. Though I somehow doubt you would.

I mean...maybe. Gotta be something to the fact that Tuch is younger and IMO has higher upside. It's basically banking on Tuch not reaching his potential cap for the fun of getting the only high profile local boy in the league. Not sure it's worth it.

 

[Meeqs]

The point is that there is not a single way to get these guys; even a cursory look around the league shows that there are many ways to do it. There's a non-zero chance that Minnesota already has done it with Kaprizov, but the jury's still out there.

Minnesota is not a single player away from contending, but stripping the team down for futures is premature.

My opinion is their core of high end players isn't good enough. The ONLY way you can fix that is getting a super high draft pick 95% of the time.
I also don't think Min's core is young enough where they have the time to try and retool, nor do I see them having the assets or the cap space to acquire players like that otherwise.

At this point I've thrown out my thoughts on the matter sufficiently. Hope everyone else is able to continue a constructive conversation on this post.

 

[AKL]

I mean...maybe. Gotta be something to the fact that Tuch is younger and IMO has higher upside. It's basically banking on Tuch not reaching his potential cap for the fun of getting the only high profile local boy in the league. Not sure it's worth it.

Not going to argue, I generally agree. I think a lot depends on if you guys are going all in on the cup again this year. Zucker could help more than Tuch would for the next 1-3 years.

 

[Bazeek]

My opinion is their core of high end players isn't good enough. The ONLY way you can fix that is getting a super high draft pick 95% of the time.
I also don't think Min's core is young enough where they have the time to try and retool, nor do I see them having the assets or the cap space to acquire players like that otherwise.

At this point I've thrown out my thoughts on the matter sufficiently. Hope everyone else is able to continue a constructive conversation on this post.

Setting aside that this sentence is in "60% of the time it works every time" territory, where are you getting 95% from?

 

[4thline]

That said, Spurgeon+ wouldn't be a terrible start on such a deal.

Would do something like Spurgeon+ for Nylander

Go on...

I might be in the minority of Leaf fans but if Spurgeon had 4-5 years it's a no brainer to me as a 1 for 1, with +'s to account for the term difference it's interesting

 

[Meeqs]

Setting aside that this sentence is in "60% of the time it works every time" territory, where are you getting 95% from?

Go through every successful teams core. You should find pretty much all of them were drafted by that team with a few here and there acquired otherwise. The next most common method is through trade and Min's lack of cap flexibility and trade chips limits what they'd be in on. Which is why we see so many lateral type moves from them when they do make a trade. The least common way is on UFA which almost never brings anything worthwhile.

On a side note, pretty much every team to win the cup has had a top 3, if not a #1OA pick on the roster. I think you have to go back to Det in the 90's to find a roster without one.

 

[HanSolo]

Not going to argue, I generally agree. I think a lot depends on if you guys are going all in on the cup again this year. Zucker could help more than Tuch would for the next 1-3 years.

Yeah probably. I think with the Karlsson situation up in the air...well both really, we're probably not gonna see Vegas do anything else for the next coming days. I heard they won't start work on their RFAs till next week. With Perron and Neal out I have to assume the only focus left is the Karlsson trade negotiations.

 

[Spurgeon]

Min scored: on average 1 goal a game
WPG scored: on average 4 goals a game

Many games Min was more than doubled up in shots most nights.

The issue is here that the series was never close, Min was never really in it. If min had Suter that would have helped for sure, maybe even would have won an extra game. However if you think Min was only a player or a hot goalie away then you are fooling yourself and being unrealistic.

First game easily could've went the Wild's way. Steal that game and we're up 2-1 after 3. Parise going down killed us. We had a rookie playing Top 4 time. We had Spurgeon with limited mobility. We had Coyle with tears in both of his wrists. We were very banged up to start the playoffs.

The team needs changes, but to suggest they need to rebuild is just wrong. They have a solid Top 9. Our Top 4 is one of the best in the league. Dubnyk is on the upper end of goalies. A rebuild makes no sense with the build of this team. Bringing in younger talent does, but definitely not trades for picks and prospects unless we're out of the playoff picture at the deadline.

 

[Bazeek]

Go through every successful teams core. You should find pretty much all of them were drafted by that team with a few here and there acquired otherwise. The next most common method is through trade and Min's lack of cap flexibility and trade chips limits what they'd be in on. Which is why we see so many lateral type moves from them when they do make a trade. The least common way is on UFA which almost never brings anything worthwhile.

On a side note, pretty much every team to win the cup has had a top 3, if not a #1OA pick on the roster. I think you have to go back to Det in the 90's to find a roster without one.

Building a core through the draft is absolutely necessary but that mostly seems to be for cap reasons. Nailing your RFA extensions and being able to feed useful ELC players onto your team is crucial to keeping the team healthy.

But if we're talking about how impossible it is to acquire "high end" talent let's take another look at guys that are considered in that group but were acquired in some way other than drafting them in the top-10:

Benn
Seguin
Panarin
Kucherov
Forsberg
Tarasenko
Barzal
Tavares
Suter
Giroux
Hall
Kessel
Marchand
Wheeler
Voracek
Gaudreau
Pastrnak
Trocheck
Marchessault
W Karlsson
Kuznetsov
E Karlsson
Burns
Staal

For the most part I put that together by running through last year's top-30 in scoring. How many guys in the top-30 were selected in the top-10 by their current team?

McDavid
Malkin
MacKinnon
Kopitar (he was #11, but I'll give it to you anyway)
Crosby
Ovechkin
Stamkos
Rantanen
Barkov
Couturier
Kane

11 of 30. But the "only" way to get these guys is to tank for a top-10 pick? It takes a lot more than that, and it's not required.

But hey, if a top-3 pick is what's required we've already got that covered. Heck, we've got a #2, a #5, a #6, two #7's and a #9. We're golden!

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Go through every successful teams core. You should find pretty much all of them were drafted by that team with a few here and there acquired otherwise. The next most common method is through trade and Min's lack of cap flexibility and trade chips limits what they'd be in on. Which is why we see so many lateral type moves from them when they do make a trade. The least common way is on UFA which almost never brings anything worthwhile.

On a side note, pretty much every team to win the cup has had a top 3, if not a #1OA pick on the roster. I think you have to go back to Det in the 90's to find a roster without one.

Good thing we have a former 2nd overall pick playing for us then.

Also a #5, a #6, two #7's a #10 and a #11.

If high picks are the golden ticket, then all we have to do is wait our turn.

Edit: damn you Bazeek, I should've read through the rest of the thread before responding.

 

[Spurgeon]

Go on...

I might be in the minority of Leaf fans but if Spurgeon had 4-5 years it's a no brainer to me as a 1 for 1, with +'s to account for the term difference it's interesting

You seem to be in the minority from the fan's I've interacted with. I think it makes sense from your team's perspective and I think it makes you guys a better team. A Reilly - Spurgeon pairing would be a very solid top pairing.

The value seems close. Spurgeon only has 2 more years left on his contract though, which probably impacts things. Although, I think 2 years with a team is enough to become accustomed to things where he'd likely re-sign. When you're giving up an asset like Nylander though, you don't want it to just be a likely scenario.

 

[4thline]

You seem to be in the minority from the fan's I've interacted with. I think it makes sense from your team's perspective and I think it makes you guys a better team. A Reilly - Spurgeon pairing would be a very solid top pairing.

The value seems close. Spurgeon only has 2 more years left on his contract though, which probably impacts things. Although, I think 2 years with a team is enough to become accustomed to things where he'd likely re-sign. When you're giving up an asset like Nylander though, you don't want it to just be a likely scenario.

So what would you be willing to add to mitigate the term risk?
also @TaLoN and @Podgornik

 

[exporta]

Something around Dumba for Nylander works for me.

 

[16thOverallSaveUs]

The team simply doesn't have the high end talent it takes to win and the only real way to get that is to rebuild, which the owner doesn't want to do. So until they go through that process it is likely the team will continue to feel stuck as the core grows older and slowly loses value.

Imo the sooner they start the rebuild the less time it will take as they could pull and NYR and get a boatload of pieces rapidly.

That’s fair. If we started the rebuild now we could ship out the likes of zucker, nino, granlund, Brodin, etc. for 1st and prospects, but when the players we trade for hit their prime, we won’t be able to pay for all of them with Suter and parise still taking up lots of dead weight.

I think it will be tough to take the roster and turn it into a consistent contender; all I hope for is a deep run or two.

 

[16thOverallSaveUs]

If your plan is to simply "get incredibly lucky in the draft" its a **** plan and if your plan is to trade rape a team then you'd better hope your GM gets to calling PC, MB, PD and Tallon as much as humanly possible.

Either way Min isn't a single player away from contending. Staal essentially had a top 10 year last year and they were still the easiest team to beat in the 1st round. They will have to rebuild, even if you want to believe it or not.

Interesting that you say we were the easiest team to beat in the 1st round. Winnipeg was the team we matched up against the absolute worst in the NHL. That is a fact. We couldn’t control their speed or their size. Had we had Suter and Parise, had Nino and Coyle been healthy, had we caught a break anywhere, it wouldn’t have looked so bad. Read any NHL reporter analysis, had we been healthy it would’ve been closer. We still would’ve lost, but it would’ve been closer.

Here’s some info for you:
Regular Season Record vs Western conference semi finals teams...
Winnipeg:1-3
Nashville:3-1
San Jose:3-0
Vegas:3-0

If there is one team we don’t match up well with, it is Winnipeg. Don’t say we were the easiest out in the playoffs because you really have no proof.

 

[Digitalbooya]

Something around Dumba for Nylander works for me.

Dumba isn’t available.