Dicdonya
Registered User
- Jul 21, 2011
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True, I will definitely agree with Dillon. Burns is debatable to me, but I wont argue over it.
Player Discussion: Martin Jones
- Thread starter Fistfullofbeer
- Start date
True, I will definitely agree with Dillon. Burns is debatable to me, but I wont argue over it.
TomasHertlsRooster
Don’t say eye test when you mean points
Sorry, I think I saw this comment before in a different thread and I didn’t respond to it it.
I’m not an expert or a coach, so I can’t be 100% certain of how to fix it. But the biggest issue that I can see is defensemen pinching for keep-ins at the opposing blue line, which frequently leads to odd-man rushes. They do it way too frequently and in situations where it’s pretty obviously not a good idea, which makes me think it’s something that the coach is pressing them to do. They also force D->D blue line passes and blue line shots way too frequently in the O-Zone which feeds the opposing transition when the passes aren’t completed or the shots get blocked.
In the defensive zone, I do think they do too much man chasing like Hohos mentioned. I actually don’t think their defensive zone coverage is the biggest issue, but it’s also not very good.
The one guy that I want to center in on is Joakim Ryan. He’s been absolutely terrible since coming back in the lineup, and I think it’s because the coaching staff has pressed him to be more aggressive. I mean, DeBoer basically said that he wanted him to replace Simek’s aggressiveness, and Ryan said that was what he was trying to do. The result is that he’s playing the worst hockey of his career.
So it seems like a lot of the issues stem from poor coaching that leads to overly aggressive pinching, excessive D-to-D passing, and shots from the point into shin pads. That sounds like poor offense coaching leading to deficits on defense. And I absolutely agree on Ryan - when they let him play like Paul Martin last year, he looked great. Now he's trying to do too much, and PDB pressuring/benching him is really not helping...
Dillon has been trash of late but the bigger problem is that too often when defending in our zone, both D are away from the net and around the boards staying with their man and being caught on the same side of the ice. That's got to stop. They need to switch off and cover the dangerous areas rather than pursuing a puck carrier on the perimeter.
I strongly believe Dillon regressing has to do with him being paired up with a boat anchor in Braun.
Dicdonya
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- Jul 21, 2011
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Could not agree more, and what is happening with Ryan is IMO exactly what is happening with Vlasic/Braun. That is not me saying they have not had individually poor efforts/plays independent of the coaching issues, but just that I personally think they are being asked to do way too much in the offensive zone, and its jacking them up defensively, which in turn messes with their head and confidence, further tanking their play.
It really feels like Deboer, and to be fair many many other coaches, have a system, and then make every player do mostly the same thing within the system. I never understood why it seems like coaches do not adapt their system to the players at all. I understand that over time a GM would get players to fit the system, hopefully, but until then, or if the GM is unable to get the perfect guys in there, you gotta make adjustments, and it does not feel like Deboer does that. Every line cycles to the point, every D pair is expected to shoot/pinch/make offensive plays. Our system is so predictable right now, and certain teams absolutely wreck us because of it, yet it feels like Deboer just keeps on trucking with the same plan despite that.
It could be but I've seen him have some shifts with Heed and still look not like himself from the first two-thirds of the season.
There were times away from Karlsson and Burns that Dillon still looked very solid. There's no discounting not playing with Karlsson obviously but he's played much better than this on his own and I suspect will get back to that eventually. I'm starting to lean more towards benching Braun for Heed when Karlsson comes back but I know it won't happen and it would probably tank his trade value in the off-season more than it already has. I still have confidence he can be moved for a 2nd or 3rd at this stage. I'm hoping we can tag something else with him whether it's Dell or Melker but I'm not getting my hopes up there anymore.
PacificOceanPotion
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- Jun 19, 2009
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I'd argue that doing so well with EK65 added confidence to Dillon's game and helped him steer clear of things he did wrong in previous years. I've noticed that Dillon has been reverting to bad habits recently, which has coincided with his drop off in play. I think playing with Braun has hurt Dillon's confidence, and he is starting to decline. There's a good chance he improves again with EK65's return.
Weird season... Started off hating Jones. So many softies early on. Then realized the defense is up and down with Vlasic playing with his head up his ass early on, and aside from Vlasic, overall not doing an awesome job defensively in front of Jones. Also, Karl going in and out of the lineup doesn't help the defensive issues the team is suffering from. But, as this losing streak rolls along it makes it seem like the issue starts with the offense; it is designed to showcase the two Norris Trophy candidates by sending shots from the point for goals, tips, rebounds etc. But there's only two of those shooty type d-men in the lineup at any time. Heed is one, but wasn't playing when Karl is healthy. Heed is no Karl... What's supposed to happen when one of those guys isn't on the ice?
This is where the problem starts, with our offensive zone structure. Even with Karl in the lineup, there's only 2 of 6 d-guys that should be shooting the puck and running the offense. Burns and
Karl (which should account for 48-50 minutes if ice time between the two of them) Heed isn't as good and can't handle the extra minutes, but at least he has a decent shot and can get it through from the point occasionally... Opposing teams are defending for it, specifically defending against these point shots, playing to get that block out high and get going the other way where it's a break away or 2 on 1 and then we're right back to Jones shitting the bed... I don't think it's specifically the d-men pinching, although that's problematic as well when you're not named Burns. Every time Braun or Vlasic do pick it up on a pinch in the offensive zone they'd do better to fall on it like a grenade and let a forward come get it, but then they're just going to cycle it low or pass it back to the point for a shot... It's kinda like the old Jumbo conundrum, best passer in the league, but when the other team KNOWS YOU'RE GOING TO PASS IT then it makes defending against the best passer in the league much easier. Sure, now and then a pass gets through and converted to a goal, but the fact the defense doesn't need to respect the shot that's never going to be taken... The Jumbo conundrum is a microcosm of the offense overall right now in my opinion, with the difference being it's predicated on point shots now...
Sometimes I'd like to see Burns drive the net when he walks the line, just to keep 'em honest. The winger can move up along the boards on his side to cover, but nope, just going to shoot it into a pile of folks and hope it gets past the guy right in front of him so it doesn't wind up a breakaway which is pretty much a slam dunk due to Jones shitting the bed on most breakaways. And then there's every non-Burns d-man that has to shoot to make the offensive scheme work, which is mostly a nightmare because, well, they're not Brent Burns... I shudder every time I watch Braun or Vlasic try to force a shot through from the point. But, what're they supposed to do? If they dump it down the boards to a forward, the whole offensive scheme is geared to cycle low, kick it out high for point shot. So that live grenade would be headed right back to them...
I guess I've landed on DeBoer being the root of the problem since he's the one responsible for the predictable offensive scheme that has shown when it fails it leads to 2 0n 1's and breakaways. Sure, Jones could have stopped a few more than he did, but it must suck to watch it happen over and over again from his point of view. Waiting for the next time someone tries to force the shot from the point, which seems to be the extent of the offensive plans. The other team is expecting those shots, and the Sharks are playing right into the opponent's game plan... Goalie isn't saving us. There seems to be a lack of updating the offensive game plan based upon the available personnel. That's not really on any player, that's on the coach.
This is where the problem starts, with our offensive zone structure. Even with Karl in the lineup, there's only 2 of 6 d-guys that should be shooting the puck and running the offense. Burns and
Karl (which should account for 48-50 minutes if ice time between the two of them) Heed isn't as good and can't handle the extra minutes, but at least he has a decent shot and can get it through from the point occasionally... Opposing teams are defending for it, specifically defending against these point shots, playing to get that block out high and get going the other way where it's a break away or 2 on 1 and then we're right back to Jones shitting the bed... I don't think it's specifically the d-men pinching, although that's problematic as well when you're not named Burns. Every time Braun or Vlasic do pick it up on a pinch in the offensive zone they'd do better to fall on it like a grenade and let a forward come get it, but then they're just going to cycle it low or pass it back to the point for a shot... It's kinda like the old Jumbo conundrum, best passer in the league, but when the other team KNOWS YOU'RE GOING TO PASS IT then it makes defending against the best passer in the league much easier. Sure, now and then a pass gets through and converted to a goal, but the fact the defense doesn't need to respect the shot that's never going to be taken... The Jumbo conundrum is a microcosm of the offense overall right now in my opinion, with the difference being it's predicated on point shots now...
Sometimes I'd like to see Burns drive the net when he walks the line, just to keep 'em honest. The winger can move up along the boards on his side to cover, but nope, just going to shoot it into a pile of folks and hope it gets past the guy right in front of him so it doesn't wind up a breakaway which is pretty much a slam dunk due to Jones shitting the bed on most breakaways. And then there's every non-Burns d-man that has to shoot to make the offensive scheme work, which is mostly a nightmare because, well, they're not Brent Burns... I shudder every time I watch Braun or Vlasic try to force a shot through from the point. But, what're they supposed to do? If they dump it down the boards to a forward, the whole offensive scheme is geared to cycle low, kick it out high for point shot. So that live grenade would be headed right back to them...
I guess I've landed on DeBoer being the root of the problem since he's the one responsible for the predictable offensive scheme that has shown when it fails it leads to 2 0n 1's and breakaways. Sure, Jones could have stopped a few more than he did, but it must suck to watch it happen over and over again from his point of view. Waiting for the next time someone tries to force the shot from the point, which seems to be the extent of the offensive plans. The other team is expecting those shots, and the Sharks are playing right into the opponent's game plan... Goalie isn't saving us. There seems to be a lack of updating the offensive game plan based upon the available personnel. That's not really on any player, that's on the coach.
The system employed should best match the skills of the talent available to you. If the coaching staff is trying to smash square pegs into round holes then that is on them for poor utilization and deployment of the types of players available to them. From what has been discussed in this thread, it sounds like a scheme or philosophy change is warranted.
Their two best offensive players are on the right point so funneling there makes at least some sense. I just think the risk is too great and their defensive zone coverage is sloppy as well as their neutral zone sorting especially against quick-moving teams. I think it's a little too late in the game to change a lot of these things up and I think they're pretty much cooked but we'll see. DeBoer has made adjustments in the past on the fly that gives some credence to him being able to make those changes but I don't know how well the team can apply them.
Negatively Positive
Mr. Longevity
- Mar 2, 2011
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This team desperately needs defensive structure and discipline. Someone like Sutter could instill that but it's too late now. We're stuck with watching the d-man pinch every time even though the forwards are stuck deep in the O-zone and can't cover so it leads to odd man rushes and breakaways which also happen to be our goalie's weakness. A coach is supposed to figure out a way to cover up weaknesses but Deboer is doing the opposite.
- May 1, 2011
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Sadly, the offense might then be neutered with Sutter in here.
It would be 38 shots a night, with 23 of them being from the point or dead angles. See how many pucks you can throw at Malcolm Subban's feet before one goes in and with Malcolm Subban, you might get 3 or 4 goals on him, but on someone like Fleury? Not so much.
Sutter officially retired from coaching last year, although I know said some like Sutter and not necessarily the actual Sutter.
TomasHertlsRooster
Don’t say eye test when you mean points
If Karlsson re-signs I wouldn’t be entirely opposed to Guy Boucher and building the trap around Karlsson/Burns/Vlasic. Maybe not a great idea but just a thought.
- May 1, 2011
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I'm not too into Guy Boucher, but it's hard to tell if he sucks or if it's all because of the teams he's coached.
Quenneville would have been perfect here, more than any other team right now.
Sharksfan83
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- Jul 27, 2010
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Funny enough, if Martin Jones stays at his current rate this season, then we will win the Stanley Cup.
Currently he allows less goals then the opposition goalie on 60.3% of the time. If he continues that every series, that will essentially win us the cup.
Currently he allows less goals then the opposition goalie on 60.3% of the time. If he continues that every series, that will essentially win us the cup.
That's TMac's problem right there... trying to get a player to play in a way outside of his forte. Or, what I like to call pounding round pegs into square holes. That's TMac coaching style, and unfortunately it's become Pete's style as well.
The first year Pete was a decent coach who worked with the best the players had to offer. Sharks will find everything an up-hill battle until Pete gets back to that.
rangerssharks414
Registered User
Funny enough, if Martin Jones stays at his current rate this season, then we will win the Stanley Cup.
Currently he allows less goals then the opposition goalie on 60.3% of the time. If he continues that every series, that will essentially win us the cup.
I know you're kidding, but goalie wins are a crap stat to judge a goalie by.
Fistfullofbeer
Moderator
I always thought SV% was the best stat to judge goalies but some people on this forums have just blamed the defense for Jones horrid SV%. So I guess there is no stat to judge goalies by anymore.
Internazionale
Registered User
I can see it now. Dell takes over sometime during the first round and leads us to Stanley Cup glory over Tampa in 7. SJ fans can finally rejoice. This team makes me crazy lol.
OrrNumber4
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- Jul 25, 2002
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Wins. When evaluating a goalie on your team, all you have to look at is the number of wins.
TomasHertlsRooster
Don’t say eye test when you mean points
There is no perfect stat to judge a goalie by. Raw save percentage definitely was the best a few years ago, but now that we’ve got other metrics which assess shot quality, it’s become clear that save percentage can also be influenced by the team that a goalie plays for.
The stats for Jones pretty much all say that he faces some of the most difficult shots of any goalie in the NHL, and that he is one of the worst goaltenders in the NHL. Not one or the other; both. This is true at all situations this season, and it has been true at 5-on-5 for the past 3 seasons.
