Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread: We’ve got forwards! Six of one, half dozen of the other.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ryder71

Registered User
Nov 24, 2017
23,231
11,213
Who are the reclamation defensemen projects that worked out well for this team that you mentioned in your previous post?

Schultz regressed back to hot garbage. Let me guess, you are blaming his regression on injuries.

Please don’t try give this team credit for “fixing” Daley. He scored at least 24 points in 7 of 8 seasons before coming to Pittsburgh. The only season he failed to hit 24 points was when he only played in 40 some games.
Shultz did regress but for a time there was a pretty important component to our 2017 run. Ian Cole was much better here than he ever was in St.Louis. And Getting Daley for Scuderi was a pretty nice value pick up. All I'm saying is let's give Matheson a chance here before we write him off.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ncm7772

Pens x

Registered User
Oct 8, 2016
16,247
8,038
Shultz did regress but for a time there was a pretty important component to our 2017 run. Ian Cole was much better here than he ever was in St.Louis. And Getting Daley for Scuderi was a pretty nice value pick up. All I'm saying is let's give Matheson a chance here before we write him off.
I definitely have more hope for Matheson compared to the other clowns JR signed/acquired. (Excluding Kap)

I hope he works out, he has to play somewhat well. If he fails, he’s completely unmovable unless JR gets fired and another team hires him, and he trades for Matheson again. I don’t see Mario using a third buyout and especially not one on a guy that is signed for 5 more years.
 
Last edited:

ColePens

RIP Fugu Buffaloed & parabola
Mar 27, 2008
107,023
67,649
Pittsburgh
Shultz did regress but for a time there was a pretty important component to our 2017 run. Ian Cole was much better here than he ever was in St.Louis. And Getting Daley for Scuderi was a pretty nice value pick up. All I'm saying is let's give Matheson a chance here before we write him off.

Yep actually totally agree here. Schultz was a HUGE component of 2017. Cole was said to be a fringe player and ended up being huge for us. We got Matheson. Whether you like the trade or not doesn't matter anymore. Let's give him the chance and that doesn't mean 3 shifts. I'm talking a good 25 games and see what we got.
 

Pens x

Registered User
Oct 8, 2016
16,247
8,038
Yep actually totally agree here. Schultz was a HUGE component of 2017. Cole was said to be a fringe player and ended up being huge for us. We got Matheson. Whether you like the trade or not doesn't matter anymore. Let's give him the chance and that doesn't mean 3 shifts. I'm talking a good 25 games and see what we got.
Fair, but I don’t want to hear that hindsight is 20/20 if he fails. This was a very big risk to take. I also don’t want people defending JR saying he can trade Matheson or buy him out if he struggles here. We saw how that ended with Johnson and Hunwick.

I hope he succeeds, and I think he has a decent shot.
 

Pens x

Registered User
Oct 8, 2016
16,247
8,038
I feel our pitch to Granlund would be tempting. He has familiarity with Zucker (last time he was a 60 point fwd) and he could pair with one of our top centers. I think our roster gives him the best chance to maximize his value.
I agree but this team just pissed away their 15th overall pick and their second or third past prospect for Kapanen. Signing Granlund could (and should) push Kap to the third line. That’s a huge price to pay for a third line player.

But a McCann Blueger Kap/Granlund line would be so much better than what we have now. We’d actually have two third liners that could play in the top 6 for extended amounts of time due to injuries.

Injuries aren’t a possibility for this team, they are guaranteed. But I’m sure Crosby and Malkin would be fine playing with Evan Rodrigues if one of their wingers gets hurt.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Old Master

ColePens

RIP Fugu Buffaloed & parabola
Mar 27, 2008
107,023
67,649
Pittsburgh
Fair, but I don’t want to hear that hindsight is 20/20 if he fails. This was a very big risk to take. I also don’t want people defending JR saying he can trade Matheson or buy him out if he struggles here. We saw how that ended with Johnson and Hunwick.

I hope he succeeds, and I think he has a decent shot.
I'm the biggest Hornqvist mark in the land. Lol. You don't need to say that to me.

I'm also just a Pens fan. I'm rooting for the 412.
 

ownal

Registered User
Jan 26, 2019
3,041
1,565
Pittsburgh
I'd trade Tanev and use the cap savings to sign Hoffman. Cut someone and sign Soderberg for a cheap 1 year deal.

Guentzel - Crosby - Kap
Hoffman - Malkin - Rust
McCann - Tb - Zucker
Jank - Soderberg - Sceviour
 

ColePens

RIP Fugu Buffaloed & parabola
Mar 27, 2008
107,023
67,649
Pittsburgh
Schultz was blasting accurate shots from the blue line all spring of 2017. One of the more important dynamics to the team’s offense those playoffs.

Which is why it was so strange seeing how inaccurate and useless his shot had become here the last few year’s.

And that's why I think he MAY (big big big MAY) have a 1 year resurgence in his career. It was confidence driven. He really lost it all.
 

The Old Master

come and take it.
Sep 27, 2004
17,598
4,878
burgh
I agree but this team just pissed away their 15th overall pick and their second or third past prospect for Kapanen. Signing Granlund could (and should) push Kap to the third line. That’s a huge price to pay for a third line player.

But a McCann Blueger Kap/Granlund line would be so much better than what we have now. We’d actually have two third liners that could play in the top 6 for extended amounts of time due to injuries.

Injuries aren’t a possibility for this team, they are guaranteed. But I’m sure Crosby and Malkin would be fine playing with Evan Rodrigues if one of their wingers gets hurt.
i was on board till that last line.:laugh:
 

BlindWillyMcHurt

ti kallisti
May 31, 2004
34,361
28,426
How is playing with extremely sub-optimal linemates should their regular ones get injured any different on this roster than any other roster? It's ALWAYS a concern and NO team has a bunch of proven top sixers kicking around in their depth lines to make it happen. Especially this year. That's not a very compelling point.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gurglesons

The Old Master

come and take it.
Sep 27, 2004
17,598
4,878
burgh
How is playing with extremely sub-optimal linemates should their regular ones get injured any different on this roster than any other roster? It's ALWAYS a concern and NO team has a bunch of proven top sixers kicking around in their depth lines to make it happen. Especially this year. That's not a very compelling point.
I'm sure they are all trying to improve that though. it doesn't look like we are.
 

BlindWillyMcHurt

ti kallisti
May 31, 2004
34,361
28,426
Well that's the byline I suppose but looking around the league and looking over the potential options available... I'm absolutely of the opinion that ya'll are blowing this way out of proportion. Having guys like Brassard play on the third line in the past worked out just great, ya know? Expensive doesn't always equal good. What looks nice on paper doesn't always translate.

Now signing Cody f***ing Ceci for no evident reason just because you can... yeah... that's dumb.
 

Gurglesons

Registered User
Dec 18, 2009
92,230
74,493
San Diego, CA
last-train-tocool.blogspot.com
I'm sure they are all trying to improve that though. it doesn't look like we are.

Rutherford specifically moved on from every player that was an under-performer last year. Schultz, Hornqvist, Bjugstad, JJ, Simon.

He added in more youth and speed on the blue line in Matheson and up front in Kapanen. He brought in cheap high potential bounce back candidates in Jankowski and Rodrigues.

He is on record saying he wants to make another move.

And uh.. he uh.. signed Ceci.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BlindWillyMcHurt

Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
81,500
79,663
Redmond, WA
I know a lot has been said about Ceci already, but the only real issues I have with bringing in Ceci are:

1. You already have a "reclamation project" on your bottom pair in Matheson. If you would have a LD that could anchor the bottom pair, I'd be content with Ceci as the 3rd pair RD because he can eat minutes if nothing else.
2. Ceci is going to be overplayed by Sullivan because Ceci gets overplayed by every coach

The question I asked earlier of "I wonder how Ceci would do in a lesser role" doesn't mean anything if a coach won't play them in a lesser role. It's the same issue with Jack Johnson. You could have fairly pointed out he got insanely difficult minutes with Columbus and argue "he'd be better with easier usage", but that doesn't mean anything if the new coach uses him the same way the old coach did and the evidence for "bad players in hard roles can be better in easier roles" is limited at best.
 

Andy99

Registered User
Jun 26, 2017
50,816
32,897
hasn’t he done this to every player? I’d like to see Ceci’s #s with Matthews, Tavares etc...lol

 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Big McLargehuge

Giskard

Registered User
Jun 20, 2008
1,837
581
Alps
Shultz did regress but for a time there was a pretty important component to our 2017 run. Ian Cole was much better here than he ever was in St.Louis. And Getting Daley for Scuderi was a pretty nice value pick up. All I'm saying is let's give Matheson a chance here before we write him off.
Absolutely, I'm rooting for Matheson and any new Penguin to excel, but the problem is the heavy bag he is bringing from Florida that carries is contract, if he fails we are so f***ed.
 

BlindWillyMcHurt

ti kallisti
May 31, 2004
34,361
28,426
I know a lot has been said about Ceci already, but the only real issues I have with bringing in Ceci are:

1. You already have a "reclamation project" on your bottom pair in Matheson. If you would have a LD that could anchor the bottom pair, I'd be content with Ceci as the 3rd pair RD because he can eat minutes if nothing else.
2. Ceci is going to be overplayed by Sullivan because Ceci gets overplayed by every coach

The question I asked earlier of "I wonder how Ceci would do in a lesser role" doesn't mean anything if a coach won't play them in a lesser role. It's the same issue with Jack Johnson. You could have fairly pointed out he got insanely difficult minutes with Columbus and argue "he'd be better with easier usage", but that doesn't mean anything if the new coach uses him the same way the old coach did and the evidence for "bad players in hard roles can be better in easier roles" is limited at best.

Yeah this is correct. Really all of the bitching re: JJ and now Ceci (in advance) should be given a heavy co-credit to Mike Sullivan and NHL coaching tendencies, in general.
 

Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
81,500
79,663
Redmond, WA
Yeah this is correct. Really all of the bitching re: JJ and now Ceci (in advance) should be given a heavy co-credit to Mike Sullivan and NHL coaching tendencies, in general.

Yeah, that's my big thing. I don't think it's fair to put it all on the players because they're not the ones deciding to play 20 minutes a night. The coaches are deciding that.

That's just the issue. It doesn't matter if you argue "Ceci would be effective in a sheltered bottom pair role" if the coaches won't use him like that. At least with Pittsburgh, I think they definitely have the players to shelter Ceci like that with Letang and Marino. But is Sullivan actually going to do that? I highly doubt it, because he didn't do it with Johnson when they had Dumoulin and Maatta ahead of him on the depth chart.
 

BlindWillyMcHurt

ti kallisti
May 31, 2004
34,361
28,426
Yeah, that's my big thing. I don't think it's fair to put it all on the players because they're not the ones deciding to play 20 minutes a night. The coaches are deciding that.

That's just the issue. It doesn't matter if you argue "Ceci would be effective in a sheltered bottom pair role" if the coaches won't use him like that. At least with Pittsburgh, I think they definitely have the players to shelter Ceci like that with Letang and Marino. But is Sullivan actually going to do that? I highly doubt it, because he didn't do it with Johnson when they had Dumoulin and Maatta ahead of him on the depth chart.

Yep that's the rub, really. We now have a tenured coach that has won some things of no small significance... bizarrely that is more often a crutch to a team than an asset. At least seemingly in the NHL for the vast majority of it's head coaches.

Who knows why but I suspect it's that he now knows more than everyone else, at least in his mind... ya dig? And much like Disco has a MASSIVE stubborn streak that tends to put the blinders on. Maybe new assistants will help. We'll see.

I would have never dreamed of advancing this theory just a year ago but he's bottomed out, here. He and his GM sure burned up that massive goodwill in record time. Hopefully I'm wrong and he makes a big turnaround this year. At the very least he seems willing to insert young players when they perform... usually. So it could be worse. It can always be worse.
 

Gurglesons

Registered User
Dec 18, 2009
92,230
74,493
San Diego, CA
last-train-tocool.blogspot.com
hasn’t he done this to every player? I’d like to see Ceci’s #s with Matthews, Tavares etc...lol



From my understanding Ceci was bad offensively for everyone he was paired with, but defensively he added some value to the Leafs. Our issue is that combined with his lack of puck moving abilities that is not something our bottom pairing needs.

Cole, Lovejoy, Daley and Maatta didn’t succeed here because of their defensive acumen.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Andy99

SEALBound

Fancy Gina Carano
Sponsor
Jun 13, 2010
40,656
18,858
I'd trade Tanev and use the cap savings to sign Hoffman. Cut someone and sign Soderberg for a cheap 1 year deal.

Guentzel - Crosby - Kap
Hoffman - Malkin - Rust
McCann - Tb - Zucker
Jank - Soderberg - Sceviour

If a team had enough space to take on Tanev and we could use that money on Hoffman, why wouldn't the team taking Tanev just sign Hoffman?

I know a lot has been said about Ceci already, but the only real issues I have with bringing in Ceci are:

1. You already have a "reclamation project" on your bottom pair in Matheson. If you would have a LD that could anchor the bottom pair, I'd be content with Ceci as the 3rd pair RD because he can eat minutes if nothing else.
2. Ceci is going to be overplayed by Sullivan because Ceci gets overplayed by every coach

The question I asked earlier of "I wonder how Ceci would do in a lesser role" doesn't mean anything if a coach won't play them in a lesser role. It's the same issue with Jack Johnson. You could have fairly pointed out he got insanely difficult minutes with Columbus and argue "he'd be better with easier usage", but that doesn't mean anything if the new coach uses him the same way the old coach did and the evidence for "bad players in hard roles can be better in easier roles" is limited at best.

Ceci was unnecessary and I still wish we saved that money for the TDL or for other assets but...it is what it is. We all know of Ceci's struggles but putting it into context, the struggle was "Ceci stinks as a top pairing dman making $4mil". Our top 4 is pretty set so the only option for him is the bottom pairing and I'm not totally convinced he has a spot in stone. I do think JJ's contract was part of the discussion as I imagine the owners and GM don't like seeing millions of dollars sitting. When you're around the $1mil mark, I think there's significantly less angst. As is, one of Ceci and Riikola will be sitting and they both make $1mil. So I do believe Ceci will have to earn the spot. With that, the expectations relative to salary have been adjusted way down. I have different expectations for Matheson, Dumo, and Pettersson at $4mil than Ceci at $1mil.

Couple of other factors may be the assistant coach's love or hate for any of the bottom pairing options. They may opt to be mixing and matching based on what skill sets they want out there. If it's Pettersson on the bottom pairing, they may want a puck mover in Riikola. If it's Matheson, they may want the more defensive-oriented Ceci. This same premise applies when there are injuries. We have a nice mix of players to be mixing and matching if this needs to be switched up.

As you pointed out, there's always that glimmer of hope when thinking about how players are going to do in a reduced role and I think Matheson and Ceci are as primed for that as anyone. Last season, they were both heavy minute top pairing dmen that struggled. Now they are coming here to be on the 2nd or 3rd pairing, new partners, new systems, new expectations. That said, you're spot on when pointing out that it doesn't mean much if they are not played properly. 3rd pairing (unless injuries dictate) for Ceci is a no-brainer for me given who else we have. Matheson is likely 2nd but I can see 3rd also which would be just fine. If they stick either with Letang...now we have issues. Matheson with Marino is fine with me but Ceci on the 2nd pairing...and it gets real iffy, real quick.

hasn’t he done this to every player? I’d like to see Ceci’s #s with Matthews, Tavares etc...lol



I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the defense tapes meetings with the coaches in the last two seasons. Outside a small, decent stretch, I have a hard time understanding how they can watch the tapes, look at the stats, and then day in and day out say "Yes, Jack Johnson will be in the NHL lineup for the Pittsburgh Penguins tonight and we believe him being there gives us the best chance to win". Mind-boggling.
 

SEALBound

Fancy Gina Carano
Sponsor
Jun 13, 2010
40,656
18,858
How is playing with extremely sub-optimal linemates should their regular ones get injured any different on this roster than any other roster? It's ALWAYS a concern and NO team has a bunch of proven top sixers kicking around in their depth lines to make it happen. Especially this year. That's not a very compelling point.

Easy, because JR didn't sign the players that HE wanted. It's a name thing. It's not a stats or performance thing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BlindWillyMcHurt

BlindWillyMcHurt

ti kallisti
May 31, 2004
34,361
28,426
I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the defense tapes meetings with the coaches in the last two seasons. Outside a small, decent stretch, I have a hard time understanding how they can watch the tapes, look at the stats, and then day in and day out say "Yes, Jack Johnson will be in the NHL lineup for the Pittsburgh Penguins tonight and we believe him being there gives us the best chance to win". Mind-boggling.

What's really mind-boggling is that there are still fans (and likely the coach and GM of the team) that still think those numbers over two years is all just a huge coincidence and cherry-picking and that it's actually all Crosby and Malkin's fault.

Easy, because JR didn't sign the players that HE wanted. It's a name thing. It's not a stats or performance thing.

As someone who gripes incessantly about nearly everything (at least I'm honest) I just don't see the big deal. The league's finances are in shambles. Individual small market teams even more precarious. And we're pissed about not signing like who... Granlund or Huala? Sorry just doesn't move the needle to me.

Now Cody f***ing Ceci on the other hand...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gurglesons

SEALBound

Fancy Gina Carano
Sponsor
Jun 13, 2010
40,656
18,858
Absolutely, I'm rooting for Matheson and any new Penguin to excel, but the problem is the heavy bag he is bringing from Florida that carries is contract, if he fails we are so f***ed.

I think we all recognize that and agree with that. This is such a complex trade because all too often posters here only look at on-ice performance and cap hit (with years being a secondary consideration). There was so much going on with this trade that it's actually quite interesting to break it all down and think about all of the potential factors that went into it.

If Matheson can get back to the level that got him the contract, that's great for us but I think we always have to temper expectations and be reasonable in how we objectively evaluate a person. Way, WAY too often when a trade like this happens, the people with their torches and pitchforks still out set the expectations so unrealistically high that no level of performance short of Norris caliber play will cool the flames. He has six total seasons left and I 100% expect there to be ups and downs. I do expect his play to trail off a bit in the later years.

From what I read about him from Florida fans was that, it's not that the skill set is there...because it is...but more that at some point in the game he would make a mistake or turnover and it would cost the team a goal (which could be a game-deciding / changing one). I didn't see too many knocks on his offensive talents, skating, or shooting. I did read plenty on gaffs and a 'meh' defensive awareness. ...now who does that sound like that we all know and love (and want to trade from time to time, lol)?

So I do expect to see him help our transition game and provide some offense from the backend. An excellent way to put it...this is Schultz's replacement. Do I expect to see a gaff or turnover from time to time. Yes. 100% yes. To not expect it is on the "evaluator", not the player. I am calling it right now, Matheson could go the entire game putting in a Marino or Letang like performance and then one-turnover in the 3rd regardless of impact, will erase all good doings with some here. Why? Because people didn't like trade and their bias is tough to break. The same will be true for Kapanen. Won't matter Kapanen vs Rust like stats. One player has leeway with posters here, the other doesn't. Same with Riikola vs Ceci. One has leeway, the other doesn't.

Failure is relevant. What's that mean and how are we defining failure? Are we talking a Wade Redden like failure? Because yes that would suck. Or are we talking about "he didn't score the number of goals/points I arbitrarily set for him without discussion"? As long as I see him help our transition without giving up a tumultuous number of goals and shows to be of positive impact on the adv stats charts, I will say it's a win for us. We can't set our expectations so high that he doesn't have a realistic chance of succeeding. That happens here quite often and then people wonder why they are so mad and upset and when coaches and GMs do what they do.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Giskard
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad