Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread - If the dog days had dog days

[Empoleon8771]

Love comments like this from people with brutal post history.

Like maybe THREE people thought Sheahan was a 3C here. Maybe 3. I would be shocked if there were 3. A lot of people, not myself, were interested at first in the reclamation project. I think I am on record most of the time saying I'll wait and see but he looks like an AHL version of Jordan Staal, not an NHL player.

But I just shake my head. How many people were around here saying Sheahan was a great 3C? I don't recall that at all and i have waaaaay too many posts on HF Boards.

I can't see the post you're replying to, but are you talking about Sheahan in general or Sheahan in specifically 2018-2019? Sheahan was bad in 2018-2019, he did look like an AHLer last year. However, he was legitimately good in 2017-2018. He was a perfectly solid 3C in 2017-2018, and then JR got greedy and acquired Brassard.

 

[Peat]

If we're talking Sheahan as an acceptable/good 3C here, there's a decent sized minority that believed that in 17-18, particularly among those who place a fairly high value on statistical results.

If we're talking Sheahan as a great 3C, then virtually nobody held that as a sustained opinion.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

I can't see the post you're replying to, but are you talking about Sheahan in general or Sheahan in specifically 2018-2019? Sheahan was bad in 2018-2019, he did look like an AHLer last year. However, he was legitimately good in 2017-2018. He was a perfectly solid 3C in 2017-2018, and then JR got greedy and acquired Brassard.

I share the same sentiment: 2017 Sheahan was pretty decent and formed some chemistry (and the entire team did) just prior to the TDL. Then Brass was brought in and it shook up the lines considerably

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

No, just does everything possible to avoid any sort of physical contact. Gally had more hits last season then Kessel had in his entire Penguins career. And before you bring it up, no this isn't about the hits themselves, it's about what they represent re the player's engagement levels when not producing. Kessel was dog**** for almost half the season last year and brought next to nothing when not producing. It's one of the big reasons why he's gone.

Jack Johnson led the Pens in hits. How much value did that "engagement" bring when he wasn't producing?

Goes without saying that the absolute last thing anyone should be concerned about with Kessel or Galchenyuk is their hit totals. These are 2 defensively suspect forwards who are measured almost exclusively by how they produce - one is elite in that regard, the other one is far from it.

 

[Riptide]

Goes without saying that the absolute last thing anyone should be concerned about with Kessel or Galchenyuk is their hit totals. These are 2 defensively suspect forwards who are measured almost exclusively by how they produce - one is elite in that regard, the other one is far from it.

That's just completely false. That is how Kessel has to be measured because he provides absolutely nothing else when he's not producing - to the point that he's lazy as f*** in pretty much every other aspect of the game. The same has never been said about Gally. And that was extremely obvious for much of the latter half of last year. Gally isnt Hornqvist out there, but he does do a lot more than Kessel ever has.

Gally isn't Kessel's 1-1 replacement. He's a younger cheaper lesser player. But part of us shedding that extra 1.9m in cap space was to make room for other players. Trying to compare these guys as a 1-1 replacement is setting yourself up to be extremely disappointed. However considering your love for Kessel where he could do almost no wrong, it's pretty clear you're already on course for that.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Sheahan didn't pan out. So what? He was passable for stretches as this team's 3C. Certainly nowhere approaching great but then again why the hell is this team like... required... to spend assloads of money and assets on their flippin' third pivot? How's that gone, so far? Maybe sometimes just using a guy in that role until he can't hack it anymore then moving on to another reasonable solution without tossing wheelbarrows of draft picks, prospects and money at some guy with a name makes more sense?

I've said it a billion times but teams that really have their shit together draft and develop guys for that role or at least have some candidates on tap that are interesting. You go find another Bonino yourself instead of throwing 4+ million at the actual Bonino, in other words.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

That's just completely false. That is how Kessel has to be measured because he provides absolutely nothing else when he's not producing - to the point that he's lazy as **** in pretty much every other aspect of the game. The same has never been said about Gally. And that was extremely obvious for much of the latter half of last year. Gally isnt Hornqvist out there, but he does do a lot more than Kessel ever has.

The whole reason that 3 successive coaches on 2 different teams moved Galchenyuk to wing is because he couldn't handle the defensive responsibilities. He's not good defensively, at all, so whether he's giving 'er the old college try and "hitting" is moot.

Offense is what each player is judged on, and Kessel's simply in another league.

Galchenyuk isn't Kessel's 1-1 replacement. He's a younger cheaper lesser player. But part of us shedding that extra 1.9m in cap space was to make room for other players. Trying to compare these guys as a 1-1 replacement is setting yourself up to be extremely disappointed. However considering your love for Kessel where he could do almost no wrong, it's pretty clear you're already on course for that.

Yes, that's why I posted in a recent response to you that the difference is Tanev and Joseph. I don't think those 2 make up the difference, particularly since Galchenyuk is a UFA at the end of the season.

 

[Ugene Magic]

That's just completely false. That is how Kessel has to be measured because he provides absolutely nothing else when he's not producing - to the point that he's lazy as **** in pretty much every other aspect of the game. The same has never been said about Gally. And that was extremely obvious for much of the latter half of last year. Gally isnt Hornqvist out there, but he does do a lot more than Kessel ever has.

Gally isn't Kessel's 1-1 replacement. He's a younger cheaper lesser player. But part of us shedding that extra 1.9m in cap space was to make room for other players. Trying to compare these guys as a 1-1 replacement is setting yourself up to be extremely disappointed. However considering your love for Kessel where he could do almost no wrong, it's pretty clear you're already on course for that.

Some good some bad here.

Kessel isn't useless away from the puck all the time. He picks his spots. It just seems like people pick and choose what time period fallows their agenda. Because last year he wasn't as engaged, and neither were others, but he was pretty solid for most of his tenure here speaking to Kesselisms of what he's done in the past.

So, in the end, it goes from one end of the drastic spectrum to the other.

There was long, long stretches Kessel was carring his line and to a small extent, the team.

 

[Empoleon8771]

No, Kessel is useless away from the puck 100% of the time. If you're seriously going to argue that isn't the case when the eye test and analyitics both support the idea that he's horrible away from the puck, you better bring something a lot better than "people only follow their agenda".

The take that Kessel is bad away from the puck isn't an agenda, it's a flat out fact. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, because he's amazingly effective when the puck is on his stick. But to say that he's not terrible when the puck isn't on his stick is just laughable. Saying it's only an agenda to say Kessel is terrible away from the puck is basically saying it's agenda to say that Johnson is bad.

Jack Johnson led the Pens in hits. How much value did that "engagement" bring when he wasn't producing?

Goes without saying that the absolute last thing anyone should be concerned about with Kessel or Galchenyuk is their hit totals. These are 2 defensively suspect forwards who are measured almost exclusively by how they produce - one is elite in that regard, the other one is far from it.

That's a hilarious jump in logic SB, come on now. Johnson doesn't suck because he throws hits, he sucks because he's terrible with the puck, is a low IQ player and a bunch of other things. Rip is completely spot on with that comment, their hit totals completely show their engagement level when the puck isn't on their stick. Johnson sucking despite throwing a lot of hits isn't an argument against that.

 

[K Fleur]

I really wonder if people around here have ever actually watched Galchenyuk play with these tales about what he brings without the puck or when he’s not producing.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

That's a hilarious jump in logic SB, come on now. Johnson doesn't suck because he throws hits, he sucks because he's terrible with the puck, is a low IQ player and a bunch of other things. Rip is completely spot on with that comment, their hit totals completely show their engagement level when the puck isn't on their stick. Johnson sucking despite throwing a lot of hits isn't an argument against that.

The argument was hitting = engagement = value without the puck.

I can't think of a better counter-example to that point than JJ.

What exactly is that brand of engagement worth on its own? Less than nothing.

 

[Peat]

I thought Kessel looked a lot more engaged and useful without the puck last season. Kessel being engaged makes a big difference. I've seen plenty of games where he might as well not be there - seen a fair few where he is there and has some decent moments with his speed and IQ, but even when he's a bit hopeless on the board, he's at least there forcing the opposition to concentrate on the battle rather than just doing whatever they want with the puck.

I think that Malkin's line can survive with a not defensively great winger as long as they're engaged and willing to go to the dirty areas, providing everything else is there. It's not what I'd have chosen but it's not like Malkin has spent all his life with two mean lean killing machines.

Sheahan didn't pan out. So what? He was passable for stretches as this team's 3C. Certainly nowhere approaching great but then again why the hell is this team like... required... to spend assloads of money and assets on their flippin' third pivot? How's that gone, so far? Maybe sometimes just using a guy in that role until he can't hack it anymore then moving on to another reasonable solution without tossing wheelbarrows of draft picks, prospects and money at some guy with a name makes more sense?

I've said it a billion times but teams that really have their **** together draft and develop guys for that role or at least have some candidates on tap that are interesting. You go find another Bonino yourself instead of throwing 4+ million at the actual Bonino, in other words.

Pray for Blueger.

Might sit down and look at this team's C drafting record actually. I feel like the last time they made a concerted effort to tackle 3C was in 2012, and that might eventually yield 2 3Cs (just not one playing here). 2014 might be counted as another swing, with Lafferty possible but Angello now firmly on the W path - a lot of the Cs we draft (Guentzel, Simon, I think Wilson?) end up as Ws which doesn't help. After that... a swing on Pavs in 2015, nothing in the great D debacle of 2016, a swing on Olund in 2017, all of Hallander/Almeida/Gorman have played some C in 2018, and 2019 was nothing.

From the looks of it, it looks like this team has a tendency to go for very long projects or guys who are probably NHL wings when drafting C. I guess to a certain extent that comes with the territory of drafting late and irregularly; of the 279 players the NHL are calling Cs, only 87 were picked after pick 60 and only 18 of them have over 30 points; guys with safe ceilings as a C in the NHL just don't last that long.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

I really wonder if people around here have ever actually watched Galchenyuk play with these tales about what he brings without the puck or when he’s not producing.

Amen, if someone can make a fact-based argument Gally brings anything but offense to the table, it will be the first time:

 

[Turin]

He’s still not as weak as Phil. So we’ll see if bad but not as horrific will move the needle.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I've watched Gooch a decent bit over the years. Which is one reason I'm not much of a fan. But I take a little issue with the "without the very good shot" part. Yeah... I think Kessel has one of the most lethal wristers in the game. But Gooch can really fire the puck, too. And the way in which he does it is (IMO) more conducive to success in this top six.

I think this team will actually miss Kessel's playmaking ability and simply being a third elite offensive talent the other team has to account for more than his shot.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Not only that, but Galchenyuk has a history of being good defensively. Galchenyuk was bad defensively in the sample size McCurdy is looking at, but his defensive metrics were individually above average (believe they were -2% threat level defensively) in 2016-2017. That doesn't exist with Kessel, he's been consistently terrible defensively analytically.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The argument was hitting = engagement = value without the puck.

I can't think of a better counter-example to that point than JJ.

What exactly is that brand of engagement worth on its own? Less than nothing.

Mentioning Johnson isn't even remotely a rebuttal to that. How do you honestly think that's a logical rebuttal? Johnson doesn't suck because he plays physical, Johnson sucks for entirely different reasons. Mentioning Johnson as a rebuttal makes as much sense as mentioning prime Chris Kunitz to support the point, it's a nonsensical argument to make.

The argument Riptide made was that Galchenyuk plays a lot more physical and is therefore more engaged, and when they're both ass defensively, a guy who plays engaged helps them more away from the puck than a guy who doesn't play engaged. How you think saying "lol this player who sucks gets a lot of hits" refutes that, I honestly don't know. You're making up a strawman argument to say that the argument was "people who throw hits have value without the puck", because that's an easy argument to knock down. No, the argument was that people who throw hits have value away from the puck relative to people who don't throw hits, when all else is equal.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

He’s still not as weak as Phil*. So we’ll see if bad but not as horrific will move the needle.

*When playing with JJ

Pray God Galchenyuk isn't forced into the same situation.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Edit: nevermind, not worth the argument for a guy who's no longer here.

 

[Turin]

*When playing with JJ

Pray God Galchenyuk isn't forced into the same situation.

Those charts are supposed to be independent of JJ.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Would you guys trade Rust for Puljujarvi?

Ken Holland apparently loves Michigan players and Puljujarvi had requested a trade. Gives the Pens a bit of cap space and nice young player. And it gives the Oilers a "winner" that can play anywhere.

Not sure if that works cap-wise for Edmonton though.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

Would you guys trade Rust for Puljujarvi?

Ken Holland apparently loves Michigan players and Puljujarvi had requested a trade. Gives the Pens a bit of cap space and nice young player. And it gives the Oilers a "winner" that can play anywhere.

Not sure if that works cap-wise for Edmonton though.

Maybe if the Oil throw in a 1st.

 

[K Fleur]

Would you guys trade Rust for Puljujarvi?

Ken Holland apparently loves Michigan players and Puljujarvi had requested a trade. Gives the Pens a bit of cap space and nice young player. And it gives the Oilers a "winner" that can play anywhere.

Not sure if that works cap-wise for Edmonton though.

Think he’d take our former Michigan defenseman!?

 

[ColePens]

Amen, if someone can make a fact-based argument Gally brings anything but offense to the table, it will be the first time:

I'm nitpicking a bit, but I don't think the idea was Kessel for Gally. That wasn't why they moved him. They took a guy with minimal contract length because they wanted the 6.8 to spread out. So basically moving on from Kessel and getting any value back. They nailed it.

Kessel is simply not replaceable. So the idea had to be a full move to youth/skill/speed. I feel the Pens started that campaign.

So another chart of Micah reallllllllly reaching. The story is not Pens moved Kessel for Gally. There is so much more to that move.

 

[Peat]

Would you guys trade Rust for Puljujarvi?

Ken Holland apparently loves Michigan players and Puljujarvi had requested a trade. Gives the Pens a bit of cap space and nice young player. And it gives the Oilers a "winner" that can play anywhere.

Not sure if that works cap-wise for Edmonton though.

Eh... ideally I'd want an add but, honestly, I could live with it. Gets us the cap space and an interesting prospect.