Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap: The Trades We'd Make Before The Play Offs

[Gurglesons]

Because while you can point out things that hurt Letang's value, you can also point out things that hurt Ristolainen's value.

This isn't Weber for Subban or something like that, it's Weber for an obviously worse but younger defenseman. Maybe something like Ristolainen and pick #8 for Letang and pick #15 or something like that.

I really don't see why Buffalo does that. Ristolainen is that exact type of defenseman GMs will pay out for. I think it'd be a one for one swap with us paying more potentially.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The big issue I see with Ristolainen is a "chicken and egg" problem with him and Buffalo. Does he give horrid results because Buffalo as a team is a tire fire, or is Buffalo a tire fire because he sucks and is playing #1 minutes? It's impossible to tell with Ristolainen playing on Buffalo. The entire culture of that team is just littered with losing, but is Ristolainen a cause or a result of that?

I really don't see why Buffalo does that. Ristolainen is that exact type of defenseman GMs will pay out for. I think it'd be a one for one swap with us paying more potentially.

I don't see any way that Ristolainen has more value than Letang. Letang is just an obviously better player, not to mention that Buffalo is probably more desperate for Letang than Pittsburgh would be for Ristolainen in that case.

 

[Gurglesons]

The big issue I see with Ristolainen is a "chicken and egg" problem with him and Buffalo. Does he give horrid results because Buffalo as a team is a tire fire, or is Buffalo a tire fire because he sucks and is playing #1 minutes? It's impossible to tell with Ristolainen playing on Buffalo. The entire culture of that team is just littered with losing, but is Ristolainen a cause or a result of that?

I don't see any way that Ristolainen has more value than Letang. Letang is just an obviously better player, not to mention that Buffalo is probably more desperate for Letang than Pittsburgh would be for Ristolainen in that case.

If Pitt is moving Letang, they are the desperate ones and they are moving an asset that has significantly diminished his age, contract and miles.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If Pitt is moving Letang, they are the desperate ones and they are moving an asset that has significantly diminished his age, contract and miles.

I mean Montreal did Subban for Weber straight up, and Subban then was way better than Ristolainen now and Letang now is probably better than Weber then.

 

[Gurglesons]

I mean Montreal did Subban for Weber straight up, and Subban then was way better than Ristolainen now and Letang now is probably better than Weber then.

Shea Weber was also three years younger than Letang and I don't think Letang has the pedigree Weber had when he was moved.

Weber had just put up 20 goals and been a Norris top five finalist the prior two years.

 

[Peat]

It opens up the team looking like f***ing idiots like Hammer for Connor Murphy.

Moving Letang after he is still proving he is this team's best defenseman would be asinine and Montour and Risto don't even save us cap room that is worth it.

An overreaction trade like that is going to be the death kneel for this team.

Looking at their numbers, Murphy might have been the more valuable guy over the past three years (if only due to being fitter), so that's maybe not the best comparison

I said Letang for Ristolainen made a lot of sense for JR to do last night and I stand by it. The Penguins would get more back of course, but I'm not sure how else you'd complete that deal.

I have genuinely no clue how that deal would turn out, but it will either be great or terrible. There is no in between, that deal is an all or nothing gamble. You either get Dion Phaneuf 2.0 and you get the PPQB you've lack since Gonchar, or you get Jack Johnson 2.0 and close any window that may remain with this core. I will say that I'm really intrigued with a Pettersson-Ristolainen pair, but trading Letang to see that is insanely risky.

a) Might be kneejerk city, but they're not doing a great job of persuading me that sticking the course wouldn't be pretty risky in its own right
b) We played 8 games without him this season, November 5th-24th. .688 of the points. In 18-19, we play 15 games without him and go 9-4-2 - .66 of the points (Feb 24th - Mar 18th, Mar 24th - Apr 3rd). Barely injured in 17-18. And of course we win a cup without him in 16-17.

He might be our best dman. He might be one of the best in the sport. But I'm not sure the team actually misses him when he's gone. Can we harness whatever that is over full seasons?

Of course, letting go of him for Ristolainen is very risky

 

[EVGENIMERLIN]

Yohe mentioned if they lose there will be a big shakeup, but what does that mean?

Murray and JJ will most assuredly be gone. He mentioned they’re actively trying to move Bjugstadt. Letang? Horny? McCann? Are they trade bait?

 

[Randy Butternubs]

I mean Montreal did Subban for Weber straight up, and Subban then was way better than Ristolainen now and Letang now is probably better than Weber then.

There was only a 3 year difference between Subban and Weber. There's about a 7 year difference between Letang and Ristolainen. Letang will be 35 when his contract expires while Risto's expires when he's 27. I think the Pens would need to add more than Letang to acquire Risto.

 

[Gurglesons]

Looking at their numbers, Murphy might have been the more valuable guy over the past three years (if only due to being fitter), so that's maybe not the best comparison

It was a lateral move though. I just don't get the benefit of making a lateral move.

 

[dogthateats]

I think that I would trade 1st OA for 3 and 5 considering I have heard this was a really deep draft. Drafting 3 and 5 you can get some awesome players. Especially if you can get the type of players that were available in the top 5 in the 2017 draft: Heiskanen, Makar, Pettersson.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think that I would trade 1st OA for 3 and 5 considering I have heard this was a really deep draft. Drafting 3 and 5 you can get some awesome players. Especially if you can get the type of players that were available in the top 5 in the 2017 draft: Heiskanen, Makar, Pettersson.

The hope would be to get Byfield and Drysdale if we did move 1 for 3 and 5.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Idk I think you guys are just not realizing how big of a difference there currently is between Letang and Ristolainen. I think saying the Penguins would need to add to Letang to get Ristolainen is either really overrating Ristolainen or overestimating what impact age has on value.

Letang for Ristolainen straight up would be fairly similar to Kessel for Galchenyuk straight up. When the trade ultimately happened, the Penguins did get an addition on top of the main asset they were getting.

 

[DesertPenguin]

Laff or Poulin rounds out the top 6 wing set of Guentzel, Zucker, Rust + Rookie.
3rd line gets some new faces. Marleau is obviously gone, McCann or Hornqvist could move.
BART probably stays intact.

Schultz walks. Johnson is traded or bought out. Bjugstad traded or bought out.

You might move Murray and platoon Jarry/Desmith.

If you pick up Laff, Poulin is suddenly available as a piece to move JJ or Bjugs and get a useful player back.

If we've got the cap space, I wouldn't mind trying to put the Tanev brothers together.

Dumoulin - Letang
Pettersson - Tanev
POJ - Marino

Would be real nice. Marino is maybe under used as a #5 but you can always get him more minutes on PP to get him where he deserves to be, and I don't want to Maatta him by giving him too much responsibility too fast. Pettersson is better as a #5 than a #4, but POJ is going to play sooner rather than later so they both need to get into the lineup.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Idk I think you guys are just not realizing how big of a difference there currently is between Letang and Ristolainen. I think saying the Penguins would need to add to Letang to get Ristolainen is either really overrating Ristolainen or overestimating what impact age has on value.

Letang for Ristolainen straight up would be fairly similar to Kessel for Galchenyuk straight up. When the trade ultimately happened, the Penguins did get an addition on top of the main asset they were getting.

If anything, I'm overvaluing the age.

Regardless, I don't think Letang accepts a trade to Buffalo.

 

[chethejet]

Letang is not a issue to me. He has two years and then he is done. the contract is not a issue. Dumo kinds worries me and I hope it is just rust and not being quite up to speed from the injury. Dumo has a good contract assuming he is back to a very good D man next year. Petts was a mistake in extending him for OLI money. Didn't GMJR learn from that??? Pens buy out JJ or find a trade partner with eating 1 million per to move him for a prospect or pick. Plus Pens have to pay Marino at some point so Pens can move Letang after next year if they need to.

Murray will have value but not what we like or hoped for. But get what you can or pay him far to much. Buffalo would be OK to trade for him as he may benefit with a new team and being the sure starter. Hey a number 2 and 4 or a 2 and prospect may be the best the Pens can do. Free up more cap room and go get that RW Sid needs. Love Smith from Nashville who buys time for either Legare or Poulin for one year. Bjugstad can come back next year and see if he can be that 3C. If not move him for a deal that is picks/ prospects. Lastly Nashville needs to find a guy who can come in and lead so Horny replaces Smith to a degree. What he brings back is whatever. So as for 2021:

Zucker Sid Smith
Jake Geno Rust
Tanev McCann?/Bjugs Lafferty
Poulin TB Angelo/ Rod
Move on from Reese, Simon, Sherry

Letang Dumo
Marino Petts
? POJ
Ruhwedel

Jarry
DeSmith

 

[Empoleon8771]

If anything, I'm overvaluing the age.

Regardless, I don't think Letang accepts a trade to Buffalo.

Your reaction was tame compared to some of the reactions I got from Sabres fans

There's legitimately a Sabres fan on the main board who is offended that I suggested it. Mentioning everything for why it's bad for Buffalo while not mentioning that Letang is way better than Ristolainen.

 

[Peat]

There was only a 3 year difference between Subban and Weber. There's about a 7 year difference between Letang and Ristolainen. Letang will be 35 when his contract expires while Risto's expires when he's 27. I think the Pens would need to add more than Letang to acquire Risto.

Letang's an actual 1D though, where as Risto is clearly out of his depth at that level. There's a far bigger quality gap between him and Letang than there was between Subban and Weber.

Also, Risto might be younger, but he's still only got one extra year's worth of control on Letang - him being younger doesn't help a team if he walks in free agency/starts getting overpaid.

Risto was clearly swinging in the trade breeze at the start of the season too. He didn't move. He's clearly not that valuable around the league.

It was a lateral move though. I just don't get the benefit of making a lateral move.

Because I do expect an add from Buffalo and if I don't get one I probably don't do it unless there's a killer use for that extra money.

But also because I'm losing my confidence in this team to perform with all the stars there. It's like a mental block. You saw the numbers for us without Letang in the line up. We were 11-15 with all of Crosby, Malkin and Letang in the line up this season. We suddenly tanked last season when Letang came back after missing most of March. It's like we're becoming a worse team for having all the stars there. And if that's what is happening, then sure, make any lateral move to remove part of that.

I'm not saying that is what is definitely happening. But there's an argument.

 

[Empoleon8771]

A Sabres fan in another thread threw out Montour for McCann, and if I could sign Montour to a similar contract McCann is lined up to get, I'd definitely do that deal.

 

[Gurglesons]

A Sabres fan in another thread threw out Montour for McCann, and if I could sign Montour to a similar contract McCann is lined up to get, I'd definitely do that deal.

Yeah, I'd do that deal every day of the week. Cap is a little ugly.

Montour was amazing as a Schultz for ANA.

 

[EVGENIMERLIN]

I think that I would trade 1st OA for 3 and 5 considering I have heard this was a really deep draft. Drafting 3 and 5 you can get some awesome players. Especially if you can get the type of players that were available in the top 5 in the 2017 draft: Heiskanen, Makar, Pettersson.

Would you trade 1OV and Murray for 3 and 5? Maybe they have to take JJ as a cap dump. I don't know if 1st OA gets you 3 and 5. Maybe it does, but maybe you can do for 3rd overall and a Logan Brown 1 OA and JJ.

If you get 1OA and you do trade it to Ottawa I'd want Stutzle and Jaime Drysdale

 

[Peat]

A Sabres fan in another thread threw out Montour for McCann, and if I could sign Montour to a similar contract McCann is lined up to get, I'd definitely do that deal.

Even if that means you lose one of Montour or Pettersson to the expansion draft, rather than losing our eight best forward that year?

Your reaction was tame compared to some of the reactions I got from Sabres fans

There's legitimately a Sabres fan on the main board who is offended that I suggested it. Mentioning everything for why it's bad for Buffalo while not mentioning that Letang is way better than Ristolainen.

Sabres fans be dreaming of creating a legendary array of young talent to crush the league.

Sabres management be dreaming of making playoffs before Eichel kicks off or the Pegulas fire them.

One of these groups will like the idea a lot more than the other...

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah, I'd do that deal every day of the week. Cap is a little ugly.

Montour was amazing as a Schultz for ANA.

It's also a deal that actually addresses a surplus and need on both teams. Penguins have a lot of LWers and centers, while Buffalo severely lacks a 2C and isn't much better on LW. On the flip side, the Penguins don't have a Schultz replacement and the Sabres have too many RD right now. Both are RFAs and I imagine both will fall for around the same price (or at least I'd hope this was the case).

Even if that means you lose one of Montour or Pettersson to the expansion draft, rather than losing our eight best forward that year?

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of trading Letang prior to the expansion draft and protecting Dumoulin, Pettersson and Montour in this situation.

I'm also perfectly content with leaving Pettersson exposed and being prepared to have POJ take his spot if he gets taken. I don't think it's a guarantee that Pettersson is an expansion draft casualty. You can also pay Seattle to not touch MP if you're concerned with losing him.

 

[SEALBound]

Because while you can point out things that hurt Letang's value, you can also point out things that hurt Ristolainen's value.

This isn't Weber for Subban or something like that, it's Weber for an obviously worse but younger defenseman. Maybe something like Ristolainen and pick #8 for Letang and pick #15 or something like that.

I would have to see who is available at #8 before I pull the trigger on that. You do get the additional $1.85mil in space which may not seem like a lot but it could be the difference between keeping a player and not. If the 8OV is not believed to be a NHL ready prospect, I would want there to be additional plans on the table that basically amount to JJ out and someone else in. Hell, I may even advocate trading down to Minny to possibly get Addison back.

I'm in the same boat though as your other post, are we seeing JJ 2.0 or Schultz 2.0 out of him? Clearly there are issues with his play, however he's being treated as the #1/2 which he probably isn't and Buffalo as a team is a dumpster fire. There is certainly a case that there is better support and structure and responsibilities for him here. Plus, the whole new team, fresh start aspect. That said, the same was sorta said for JJ and we know where that went. We've proven that we can certainly take talented young dmen and restore them to former glory. Its just that...we tend to do that with bottom pairing guys to make better bottom pairing guys, not ones we are trying to replace the #1 dman with.

Yohe mentioned if they lose there will be a big shakeup, but what does that mean?

Murray and JJ will most assuredly be gone. He mentioned they’re actively trying to move Bjugstadt. Letang? Horny? McCann? Are they trade bait?

Active trade bait I would say: Murray, Bjugstad, JJ, Letang, and maybe someone like ERod and Riikola. Next tier down would be Horny, Desmith, maybe McCann. After that, it gets merky. I mean, I wouldn't hate using Petts or Dumo to get a better Petts or Dumo but the devil you know is better than the devil you don't. I think a lot will depend on the pick and where we land in the pecking order. If you can land the 1OV, that opens up other options. I mean, you could package other players that would otherwise be locks if Lafraniere is coming such as Zucker. Like you could maybe look to Carolina who has a glutton of good dmen to see if you can send Zucker, Horny, Rust and get back a good dman and a prospect. Like Zucker/Horny for Dougie Hamilton or something.

I think that I would trade 1st OA for 3 and 5 considering I have heard this was a really deep draft. Drafting 3 and 5 you can get some awesome players. Especially if you can get the type of players that were available in the top 5 in the 2017 draft: Heiskanen, Makar, Pettersson.

Go through the last 10 years and you can find some good players at 3 and 5. You can also find players that have no turned out so well or rather, ones that you wouldn't maybe want over Lafreniere. Imagine getting Gudbranson and Nino, Chucky + Reilly, Drouin + Lindholm, PLD + Juolevi, or Kotkaniemi + Hayton. For the last 10 years, it's 50/50 on whether or not the 1OV vs 3/5OV is a good trade. Now, you pull a Heiskanen+Pettersson and you're one brilliant SOB when the 1OV is Hischier.

The hope would be to get Byfield and Drysdale if we did move 1 for 3 and 5.

That's the "hope" but I think LA takes Byfield pretty easily. Drysdale is a tough one to peg. He's that that surefire anything...he's just a good dman. There's nothing flashy, at least from what I've read and seen. I don't think you're getting a Dahlin, Heiskanen, or Makar there. Now if you can pull Byfield and Stützle, somehow, that's certainly worth exploring. That's your future top 6 line there. ZAR-Byfield-Stutzle...I can see it now...

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Letang's an actual 1D though, where as Risto is clearly out of his depth at that level. There's a far bigger quality gap between him and Letang than there was between Subban and Weber.

Also, Risto might be younger, but he's still only got one extra year's worth of control on Letang - him being younger doesn't help a team if he walks in free agency/starts getting overpaid.

Risto was clearly swinging in the trade breeze at the start of the season too. He didn't move. He's clearly not that valuable around the league.

I do agree that Letang is better than Ristolainen. Don't they actually have the same amount of years left on their contracts? Anyway, I assume that the Pens have a better chance of re-signing Risto than the Sabres have of re-signing Letang.

Once again, I don't think Letang accepts a trade to Buffalo.

A Sabres fan in another thread threw out Montour for McCann, and if I could sign Montour to a similar contract McCann is lined up to get, I'd definitely do that deal.

I'd do it.

 

[SEALBound]

A Sabres fan in another thread threw out Montour for McCann, and if I could sign Montour to a similar contract McCann is lined up to get, I'd definitely do that deal.

Yes, I would do that deal. That would be a very good move for us. It would be gritting our teeth at either keeping Bjugstad or having TB be the 3C but I could live with it considering the value Montour would bring.

Would you trade 1OV and Murray for 3 and 5? Maybe they have to take JJ as a cap dump. I don't know if 1st OA gets you 3 and 5. Maybe it does, but maybe you can do for 3rd overall and a Logan Brown 1 OA and JJ.

If you get 1OA and you do trade it to Ottawa I'd want Stutzle and Jaime Drysdale

That first deal, no not without a significant asset also coming our way. I would want something like Brannstrom. I mean, you are getting the 1OV. There's gonna be some hurt. I would maybe even add something.

1OV + Murray + choice of McCann or Horny

for

3rd + 5th OV + Brannstrom

I think there's enough incentive on both sides. Ottawa has the picks this draft and the next and they get that franchise player. Brannstrom is good, but he's not going to pull butts into seats.