Pick one Defenseman to build a team around? Leetch vs Karlsson vs Doughty

[JackSlater]

Karlsson and I hope that his ankle never gets cut.

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

Brian Leetch is losing this poll?

I feel like most voters never got to watch him play.

 

[Regal]

I also think the age of posters comes into play. I am 40 now so I got to see Leetch and the other 2. At peak E.K is imo the best then Doughty then Leetch however Leetch was better longer so you end up with a useful player rather than an 11+million anchor

Leetch may have been underrated playing on some crap Rangers teams the second half of his career, but he was generally regarded as not being the same quality elite player after his age 28 season, which is basically where Karlsson (28) and Doughty (29) sit now. If they decline from in the conversation for best in the league to "only" top 10ish defensemen, it would be no different than Leetch.

 

[Regal]

When both defenders are on their game, Karlsson is unquestionably the better player, how can you even make that as your argument? He's outplayed him in everything.

Olympics, playoffs, you name it. Only thing Karlsson doesn't have is a Cup, by that same measure, he also doesn't have Quick, Kopitar, Carter etc...

I agree, but in general I would argue Doughty has been "on" more consistently throughout their careers. Though part of that is EK recovering from injuries

 

[Machinehead]

Brian Leetch is losing this poll?

Still underrated.

I can understand picking Doughty because he's a different player, but I'm not sure how folks are picking Karlsson.

Leetch was a better version of Karlsson.

 

[Regal]

Still underrated.

I can understand picking Doughty because he's a different player, but I'm not sure how folks are picking Karlsson.

Leetch was a better version of Karlsson.

Leetch was better defensively, but Karlsson's scoring is clearly better relative to the league though. I think it's close but edge to Karlsson

 

[Machinehead]

Leetch was better defensively, but Karlsson's scoring is clearly better relative to the league though. I think it's close but edge to Karlsson

Is it?

Leetch had 79 points in the middle of the dead puck era.

 

[Iapyi]

Karlsson.

Especially because this is pre-injury Karlsson.

A generational offensive talent who can skate like he was born with skates on.

He almost singlehandedly dragged his team to the Stanley Cup Finals.

Put him on the Rangers or Kings and he would impress even more.

Please explain. Does playing for those two particular teams automatically make a player more impressive?

 

[82Ninety42011]

Leetch was a really solid defence man. This isn't Phil Housley or Coffey - Leetch was very good in the defensive zone. The only knock on Leetch was that he wasn't physical nor as good as Bourque (no one was/has been) but the game has kinda changed to suit Leetch's skills even more.

One of the smoothest and calmest (on ice) players of all-time and one of the best ever at exiting the zone and transitioning up ice.

Maybe im under rating Leetch then but I did see him play im 47. I just remember him as a offensive power house but not the best defender. I'd still take Doughty though over both.

 

[Regal]

Is it?

Leetch had 79 points in the middle of the dead puck era.

The DPE had similar league-wide GPG averages to the majority of Karlsson's career (outside of the past two years), but it also featured a large percentage of scoring on the PP which made the elite scorers generally produce a higher percentage of offense.

Leetch's 79 point season was in a year where Jagr had 121 points, Sakic had 118, and 20 players hit 80 points. Leetch finished in a 5-way tie for 21st in league scoring. He got to play 6:17 per game on the PP, which is much easier for defensemen to put up points, and had 37 of his 79 points there.

Compare that to say, Karlsson's '16 season, where only 5 players had 80 points, and he finished tied for 4th in league scoring with 82. That year, a lack of PPs meant lower scoring for top players relative to league wide GPG, and Karlsson only got 4:39 on the PP in comparison, putting up 26 of his 82 points there.

Leetch's 79 point year was actually pretty awesome, but it was also surrounded by years of 50-55 points, so it wasn't a consistent thing in the DPE for him. Of course he was older then and put up more consistent numbers earlier in his career, as well as 102 points in '92, where he finished 9th in league scoring. But that was also more comparable to Karlsson's '12 season than his '16. If you look at their seasons, in general Karlsson is a little better in their best ones and generally more consistently high in league scoring.

And if we look at top 30 scoring placements league-wide, we get this:

Leetch: 9, 19, 21, 24, 25
Karlsson: 4, 10, 14, 17, 23

And if we compare Leetch's 7 best consecutive years from '91 when he had 88 points to '97 when he put up 78 points before falling to the 50ish of the DPE, he was 25th in scoring among all players and 34th in PPG.

Meanwhile, if we look at Karlsson's 7 best from when he broke out in '12 to last season, he was 15th in total points and 19th in PPG.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Please explain. Does playing for those two particular teams automatically make a player more impressive?

The suggestion is, as always, that Doughty is just a passenger rather than a difference maker on his own.

 

[Agent Zub]

Peak Karlsson is the best defensive and offensive player here.

Karlsson put kucherov in his pocket last night and said GG.

Doughty can't control the game like that.

Taking Doughty over Karlsson is akin to taking Toews over Crosby.

 

[The S5]

Hilarious that Leetch, the best of the three, trails this list.
Oh how quickly we forget.

 

[The S5]

Peak Karlsson is the best defensive and offensive player here.

Karlsson put kucherov in his pocket last night and said GG.

Doughty can't control the game like that.

Karlsson got away with a hook.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I agree, but in general I would argue Doughty has been "on" more consistently throughout their careers. Though part of that is EK recovering from injuries

I hate to call staying healthy a 'skill', but then you think of guys like Bourque who just rocked longevity like crazy.

Doughty has played 98% of his possible NHL games in his career, missing only one playoff game to a bullshit suspension, and playing all 82 (or 48, lockout) games 6 times, and no fewer than 76 games. He's led the league in all TOI in 4 of the last 5 years. Part of the reason people can't understand how bad the Kings are without him is because they're never f***ing without him.

Or we could look at last year's playoffs Game 2, Kings got absolutely caved in without him, and the top pairing that night that took his role--Alec Martinez/Fantenberg #1 pairing--were at 34.33% CF%.

In that series, Doughty was an absurd 57.48 CF% , 11.65 rel, 50% GF%rel! despite being hardmatched against an unstoppable VGK top line, while the rest of the team was hovering barely over 40% CF without him.

Doughty's biggest crime is like that of prime Vlasic, he's effective as hell but quietly, efficiently. His only real 'flash' these days is end-to-end rushes and the rare highlight reel goal resulting. The other small, subtle defensive and transition plays go totally unappreciated.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Peak Karlsson is the best defensive and offensive player here.

Karlsson put kucherov in his pocket last night and said GG.

Doughty can't control the game like that.

Taking Doughty over Karlsson is akin to taking Toews over Crosby.

Doughty literally just went 58.33% CF% in 13:30 vs. McDavid last night, he only had a couple of 5v5 minutes without him, and had two assists, in addition to killing off 3:42 of 6 PIM.

Real poor choice of words.

 

[Agent Zub]

Doughty literally just went 58.33% CF% in 13:30 vs. McDavid last night, he only had a couple of 5v5 minutes without him, and had two assists, in addition to killing off 3:42 of 6 PIM.

Real poor choice of words.

There's no poor choice of words in saying that Doughty can't control a hockey game like Karlsson. Doughty is better than Karlsson at other things. But not that.

 

[authentic]

Karlsson and I hope that his ankle never gets cut.

And even if it did, still Karlsson.

 

[wetcoast]

This. Doughty is honestly pretty much the epitome of what an elite #1 Defenceman "archetype" would be. The true "do it all" master. There really isn't anything he can't, or wouldn't excel at. Can't turn that down. And he's been that from such a young age too, it fits this poll well.

This is my thought as well, although the OP conveniently used age 21, the age when Karlsson broke out when the other 2 guys were really good in their age 19 and 20 seasons.

I wonder why he did that?

 

[Addison Rae]

Karlsson for sure.

 

[bossram]

If you can pick a player's absolute "peak", I'd take Karlsson. In his prime, he was unstoppable.

And it still wasn't so long ago when he dragged the Senators to the ECF on one ankle. One of the best playoff performances I've seen in recent memory.

 

[wetcoast]

When both defenders are on their game, Karlsson is unquestionably the better player, how can you even make that as your argument? He's outplayed him in everything.

Olympics, playoffs, you name it. Only thing Karlsson doesn't have is a Cup, by that same measure, he also doesn't have Quick, Kopitar, Carter etc...

I think people forget about how good of a player Doughty was in the 2 Olympics he played in.

He also outscored Karlsson (a year earlier) in the WHC-A at age 19 for both of them.

Karlsson also has had a slower start to his career, something you forgot to mention.

 

[PatrikBerglund]

I think people forget about how good of a player Doughty was in the 2 Olympics he played in.

He also outscored Karlsson (a year earlier) in the WHC-A at age 19 for both of them.

Karlsson also has had a slower start to his career, something you forgot to mention.

Karlsson was voted best defenceman in U-18 WC in 2008.

Karlsson was voted best defenceman in JWC in 2009.

Karlsson has played once in the Olympics, voted best defenceman (2014).


Can not find the info about who was voted best defenceman in the joke tournament World Cup, in 2016. Does anyone have a link?

 

[wetcoast]

Karlsson was voted best defenceman in U-18 WC in 2008.

Karlsson was voted best defenceman in JWC in 2009.

Karlsson has played once in the Olympics, voted best defenceman (2014).


Can not find the info about who was voted best defenceman in the joke tournament World Cup, in 2016. Does anyone have a link?

Karlsson also has better AHL stats than Doughty or Leetch but ya that was before the OP age 21 part, much like your first 2 points in this post.

 

[wetcoast]

If you can pick a player's absolute "peak", I'd take Karlsson. In his prime, he was unstoppable.

And it still wasn't so long ago when he dragged the Senators to the ECF on one ankle. One of the best playoff performances I've seen in recent memory.

What year was this unstoppable peak of Karlsson that you are referring to?

Aslo Leetch has a Conn Smythe killer performance in 94.

Karlsson and Leetch are very much alike in some ways, both were high event level players were goals were going to be scored by both teams when they were on the ice... much moreso than Doughty.

Leetch also played a ton on the PK.