Pick one Defenseman to build a team around? Leetch vs Karlsson vs Doughty

[ole ole]

I hope people are watching Doughty closely this year.

Now that his team is playing poor he is playing hot trash in many plays. The guy is a whopping -15 tied for team worst and handsomely ahead of the next worst defender. Man I remember when EK was trashed similarly for such things.

He gets absolutely blown by here last game:

Tanner Pearson makes Doughty his *****

there's bunch more at least Karlsson was still PPG while being similarly bad AND we still didnt necessarily have the firepower LA still does.

So now Plus/minus is important?

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Seems to me that this year Doughty just doesn't give a ****. Which obviously isn't what you want. But in my book, when he's actually on his game he's the most complete defenseman at both ends of the ice. Karlsson may be more gifted offensively but Doughty does everything else better.

When both defenders are on their game, Karlsson is unquestionably the better player, how can you even make that as your argument? He's outplayed him in everything.

Olympics, playoffs, you name it. Only thing Karlsson doesn't have is a Cup, by that same measure, he also doesn't have Quick, Kopitar, Carter etc...

 

[HanSolo]

When both defenders are on their game, Karlsson is unquestionably the better player, how can you even make that as your argument? He's outplayed him in everything.

Olympics, playoffs, you name it. Only thing Karlsson doesn't have is a Cup, by that same measure, he also doesn't have Quick, Kopitar, Carter etc...

Unquestionably the better offensive player, sure.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

You could argue Doughty but Karlsson is far to weak in his own zone IMO

Yea, just like he went the entire Olympics with no goals scored when he was on the ice.

What about the 2017 playoffs where he took over both ends of the ice every shift. I think only 5 goals were scored when he was on the ice in the entire playoffs.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Unquestionably the better offensive player, sure.

Doughty showing us now what it feels like to be on terrible defensive high-light reels when your team is garbage; a circumstance Karlsson has been apart of nearly his entire career short a few seasons.

The great defensive infallible Doughty himself.

When both players are playing with similar support systems, Karlsson is the better player. Full-stop. You don't need Sens fans telling you this anymore, go ask Shark fans how good he's been both ends.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

Seems to me that this year Doughty just doesn't give a ****. Which obviously isn't what you want. But in my book, when he's actually on his game he's the most complete defenseman at both ends of the ice. Karlsson may be more gifted offensively but Doughty does everything else better.

Ya maybe

 

[ccman68]

Karlsson is better defensively than Doughty

 

[HanSolo]

Ya maybe

You know what I meant.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

You know what I meant.

That Karlsson is leaps and bounds, head and shoulders, exponentially better than Doughty offensively

 

[Thenameless]

There's only one real defenseman in this poll. I'll take him.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Karlsson is better defensively than Doughty

Hot take. Any evidence you could pass along?

 

[HanSolo]

Doughty showing us now what it feels like to be on terrible defensive high-light reels when your team is garbage; a circumstance Karlsson has been apart of nearly his entire career short a few seasons.

The great defensive infallible Doughty himself.

When both players are playing with similar support systems, Karlsson is the better player. Full-stop. You don't need Sens fans telling you this anymore, go ask Shark fans how good he's been both ends.

From one biased lens to another. What good would that do me? I'm not saying Karlsson is a defensive liability. Sure Doughty is having an off year but so is everyone in LA. At their best all it takes is the eye test to see what individual could more dominantly erase a scoring chance against on his own. He's better at cutting off passing lanes, board battles, and man to man defense. That's been my impression for years.

Again. This is comparing a player who is objectively one of my favorite non Knights or Ducks vs a guy that I borderline despise. I don't have any negativity or confirmation bias guiding this opinion. But the fact of the matter is if the Knights are in a playoff series and need a goal to force OT in a game 7, I'd much rather they have to force a goal with Karlsson on the ice than Doughty. Karlsson may well still be the guy to get it done, but I'd be more afraid of Doughty.

I mean there's no question that Karlsson is one of the best offensive defensemen of all time but in terms of the total package, defense and offense, I give the slight edge to Doughty. And that's a tough thing for me to admit because words can't express my distaste for him. I mean my signature is a quote of him with a terribly incorrect and arrogant prediction about the Knights. But as a fan of the game, and one that values defensive ability higher than offense in a defenseman it is my opinion that the disparity in offensive production is slightly made up for in the difference in defense.

One off year doesn't change that for Doughty anymore than an off year offensively makes Rielly a better offensive talent than Karlsson.

 

[HanSolo]

That Karlsson is leaps and bounds, head and shoulders, exponentially better than Doughty offensively

Bit hyperbolic but sure.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

I mean there's no question that Karlsson is one of the best offensive defensemen of all time but in terms of the total package, defense and offense, I give the slight edge to Doughty.

Lmao and just like that you discrediting his mastery overall performances in the Olympics and playoffs.

Karlsson >> Doughty offensively (without adding an extra > for EK)
Doughty > Karlsson defensively (to fit your narrative)

How does EK still not win in overall package? I am confused with this logic. Are you gonna give me examples of this? Cause I just named 2 overall performances above that EK outdid Doughty in, handily too.

You said Doughty is better man to man, and board battles. Fine, EK is better at cutting off passing lanes (lol Doughty is not better don't kid yourself), he's better takeaway artist and better blocker. I can nitpick defensive traits too, buddy. Even then, lets say Doughty IS flat out better defensively than EK, EK still absolutely dominates him in neutral zone and offensive zone ability, way more than Doughty beats EK defensively.

You have no premise. Your logic has many holes. And I really don't care about your feelings towards Doughty, it means nothing in the larger scheme of things.

You say "I'd rather have Doughty out there to defend a one goal lead" guess what, EK is the reason that team has that one goal lead and has dominated the game for his team.

I'd rather have Bergeron out there for my one goal lead too, doesn't mean I pick him over McDavid, lol.

 

[Sureves]

Bit hyperbolic but sure.

No it isn't.

 

[b in vancouver]

Doughty for me the other two are just forwards playing back especially Leetch from what I recall. Drew is the true 2way stud Dman.

Leetch was a really solid defence man. This isn't Phil Housley or Coffey - Leetch was very good in the defensive zone. The only knock on Leetch was that he wasn't physical nor as good as Bourque (no one was/has been) but the game has kinda changed to suit Leetch's skills even more.

One of the smoothest and calmest (on ice) players of all-time and one of the best ever at exiting the zone and transitioning up ice.

 

[Deadly Dogma]

Really surprised Leetch is getting no love. Karlsson and Doughty both don't look like the players they were while Leetch kept being Leetch.

 

[Deadly Dogma]

Leetch was a really solid defence man. This isn't Phil Housley or Coffey - Leetch was very good in the defensive zone. The only knock on Leetch was that he wasn't physical nor as good as Bourque (no one was/has been) but the game has kinda changed to suit Leetch's skills even more.

One of the smoothest and calmest (on ice) players of all-time and one of the best ever at exiting the zone and transitioning up ice.

Plus if you go look at their careers Leetch was better longer than the other 2 look to be. So if I am picking a 21yr old then it HAS to be Leetch, gonna get 17 season of top level play.

 

[b in vancouver]

Isles fan saying Leetch is being severely underrated.

Ya. He's getting the Peter Statsny / Kent Nilsson / Brad Park treatment nowadays.
Surprises me somewhat - as it's not like he was playing in Atlanta or somewhere. Might have to do with that he was over-shadowed by Bourque and a bunch of mediocre Rag teams that mostly got talked about because of the next faded star they over-paid - but Leetch was an amazing player.

 

[Deadly Dogma]

Ya. He's getting the Peter Statsny / Kent Nilsson / Brad Park treatment nowadays.
Surprises me somewhat - as it's not like he was playing in Atlanta or somewhere. Might have to do with that he was over-shadowed by Bourque and a bunch of mediocre Rag teams that mostly got talked about because of the next faded star they over-paid - but Leetch was an amazing player.

I also think the age of posters comes into play. I am 40 now so I got to see Leetch and the other 2. At peak E.K is imo the best then Doughty then Leetch however Leetch was better longer so you end up with a useful player rather than an 11+million anchor

 

[NyQuil]

I also think the age of posters comes into play. I am 40 now so I got to see Leetch and the other 2. At peak E.K is imo the best then Doughty then Leetch however Leetch was better longer so you end up with a useful player rather than an 11+million anchor

I am also 40.

Age has nothing to do with it.

It’s a bit premature to write the others off when they are still in their 20s.

You are comparing an entire career against two half-careers and saying the former has more longevity when the story isn’t complete.

It’s an interesting comparison but it’s always hard to compare a retired player with two active guys with potentially 10 more years of NHL play ahead of them.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

When both defenders are on their game, Karlsson is unquestionably the better player, how can you even make that as your argument? He's outplayed him in everything.

Olympics, playoffs, you name it. Only thing Karlsson doesn't have is a Cup, by that same measure, he also doesn't have Quick, Kopitar, Carter etc...

That's debatable at best.

Especially given the chief complaint about Doughty during that 2015 Norris battle was that people were citing his dominant playoffs in the previous year.

He's got Olympic Golds, Stanley Cups, and two strong Conn Smythe cases of his own, being a central driving force in each championship, he's not just a passenger of circumstance.

Citing "zero goals against" in the Olympics while he was playing on the sheltered pairing while ignoring Doughty led Canada in scoring while playing on the "all-around" pairing with Vlasic is misleading.

The "when both defenders are on their game thing" is pretty important, I would think, given Doughty's been consistent, played 82 games a year multiple times, led the league in ice time, etc. while Karlsson has been up and down with injury and inconsistency for years. 40 games of Doughty struggling after a decade of dominance means you get to finally deploy your lowlights, congrats, but it also doesn't erase or change history.

Duhatschek: Did Drew Doughty’s 2014 get enough respect?

"In the playoffs, Doughty averaged a team-high 28:45 per night of playing time, and contributed 18 points in 26 games. Justin Williams, who scored many pivotal goals along the Kings' playoff path, won the Conn Smythe Trophy, but Doughty was – as Sports Illustrated's Michael Farber put it – the thinking man's choice for playoff MVP."

Maybe not between you and I and our usually thinking groups, but Doughty gets forgotten a lot.

 

[psycat]

From a guy that hates Doughty and his attitude and is a fan of Karlsson and his personality.

Doughty. It's close but I like the total package Doughty provides. But I've always valued defense in a defenseman higher than offense.

Well I mean Karlsson is better defensively then Doughty aswell, something he is showing this year when he is not on a team where he needs to carry the offence solo.

This poll should be close between Leetch and Karlsson, Doughty is simply a tier or two below as far as talent goes- not that he is all that far off either mind you, simply enough behind that he doesn't belong in the discussion.

 

[Iapyi]

Doughty by an huge margin.

 

[psycat]

Really surprised Leetch is getting no love. Karlsson and Doughty both don't look like the players they were while Leetch kept being Leetch.

Karlsson is absolutley looking like himself the past 20 games or so.