Prospect Info: Pick #78 - Shayne Gostisbehere, Defenseman, Union College (NCAA)

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tade

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Mar 6, 2013
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Feel free to expand your definition of what is unforgivable then?

Is the issue men's leagues? Or is it only the KHL? And if its only the KHL, is the problem the KHL itself or how many years he played in it?

Kucherov played in the KHL before he played in the QMJHL. Would he have been excluded?

Ovechkin and Malkin played in the KHL, after they were drafted, are they excluded?

Are you suggesting that it's only okay to play in the KHL until drafted? Until 20? Or automatically excluded because you personally believe the KHL is different from the AHL or any other men's leagues.

If the issue is only that Panarin has played alot of games in the KHL then what is the game cut off?

You said the KHL is excluded because its a men's league. I pointed out it's also a 16 year old's league and gave lots of other examples of the same.

Why are all the other leagues okay but the KHL is not. The SEL and FEL are very competitive (and have 16-40 year olds as well)


I'm not defending Panarin I'm just putting you to proof on your arbitrary distinction. Flesh it out.

I dont think its anything wrong if a player spends 1-2 years playing in some Euro pro league but Panarin has played 5! seasons as a pro AND he entered NHL at basically 24. Thats massive difference here. Come on, now.

Ghost turned 23 in April but he played 21 games as a pro before his rookie season.
 

Bevans

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Apr 15, 2016
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I dont think its anything wrong if a player spends 1-2 years playing in some Euro pro league but Panarin has played 5! seasons as a pro AND he entered NHL at basically 24. Thats massive difference here. Come on, now.

Ghost turned 23 in April but he played 21 games as a pro before his rookie season.

So 3 seasons is your cut off?

Ovechkin played 4 (from 16-19).

Would you have said no to him?

No "come on now". Seriously, someone give a specific rule that would be fair and not exclude worthy kids.

I don't care about the smell test. You don't like Panarin winning. Sure. Now give a GOOD rule that would prevent it.
 

Hollywood Cannon

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Jul 17, 2007
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So 3 seasons is your cut off?

Ovechkin played 4 (from 16-19).

Would you have said no to him?

No "come on now". Seriously, someone give a specific rule that would be fair and not exclude worthy kids.

I don't care about the smell test. You don't like Panarin winning. Sure. Now give a GOOD rule that would prevent it.

Ovechkin was 20.

Eligibility Requirements: No player who has played greater than 2 (or 3) years in a professional league outside of the AHL and is older that 22 (or 23) years old is eligible for the Calder Trophy.

05-06 Ovechkin 20 y/o Still Wins
06-07 Malkin 20 y/o Still Wins
07-08 Kane 19 y/o Still Wins
08-09 Mason 21 y/o Still Wins
09-10 Myers 20 y/o Still Wins
10-11 Skinner 18 y/o Still Wins
11-12 Landeskog 19 y/o Still Wins
12-13 Huberdeau 19 y/o Still Wins
13-14 MacKinnon 18 y/o Still Wins
14-15 Ekblad 19 y/o Still Wins
15-16 Panarin 24/yo Doesn't Win
 

tade

Registered User
Mar 6, 2013
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Brno, Czech Republic
So 3 seasons is your cut off?

Ovechkin played 4 (from 16-19).

Would you have said no to him?

No "come on now". Seriously, someone give a specific rule that would be fair and not exclude worthy kids.

I don't care about the smell test. You don't like Panarin winning. Sure. Now give a GOOD rule that would prevent it.

The best rule would be probably to reduce the age. Ovechkin played 4 seasons but look at his age when he entered NHL. Yes, he was 20 years old. Again, big difference compared to Panarin.

Ovechkin was 20.

Eligibility Requirements: No player who has played greater than 2 (or 3) years in a professional league outside of the AHL and is older that 22 (or 23) years old is eligible for the Calder Trophy.

05-06 Ovechkin 20 y/o Still Wins
06-07 Malkin 20 y/o Still Wins
07-08 Kane 19 y/o Still Wins
08-09 Mason 21 y/o Still Wins
09-10 Myers 20 y/o Still Wins
10-11 Skinner 18 y/o Still Wins
11-12 Landeskog 19 y/o Still Wins
12-13 Huberdeau 19 y/o Still Wins
13-14 MacKinnon 18 y/o Still Wins
14-15 Ekblad 19 y/o Still Wins
15-16 Panarin 24/yo Doesn't Win

Exactly...
 

StoneHands

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Feb 26, 2013
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So 3 seasons is your cut off?

Ovechkin played 4 (from 16-19).

Would you have said no to him?

No "come on now". Seriously, someone give a specific rule that would be fair and not exclude worthy kids.

I don't care about the smell test. You don't like Panarin winning. Sure. Now give a GOOD rule that would prevent it.

Ovechkin likely would have been in the NHL in '04-'05 if there wasn't a lockout. He also only played 20 games his first season in the NHL, so if we're going to say that playing any games in the KHL is a season, then Panarin played 7 seasons while Ovechkin played 4, one of which because the NHL didn't exist.

Ovechkin played 169 games in the KHL while Panarin played 301.

Ovechkin was a 20 year old NHL rookie while Panarin was a 24 year old rookie.

Panarin was a KHL all-star and and lead his team in scoring 2 years in a row. That team also employs Ilya Kovalchuk by the way.

I think Panarin should win the Calder because of the season he had and the rules in place allow it but to try to compare his situation to Ovechkin is ridiculous.

Spin it any way you want but to me something needs to change when this years Calder winner is likely a guy that was playing professional hockey when McDavid was 11 years old. To me, if you're playing pro hockey for more than 3 seasons after your draft year, you should no longer be eligible for the Calder. Panarin was a legitimate star player in the 2nd best league in the world before he came to the NHL.
 

whitstifier

Honor Black Excellence in Hockey
Mar 19, 2013
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Hope Panarin wins. Will add to the drama of Kane's and Panarin's scoring rates plummeting next season.
 

PK16

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Jul 28, 2013
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Ovechkin likely would have been in the NHL in '04-'05 if there wasn't a lockout. He also only played 20 games his first season in the NHL, so if we're going to say that playing any games in the KHL is a season, then Panarin played 7 seasons while Ovechkin played 4, one of which because the NHL didn't exist.

Ovechkin played 169 games in the KHL while Panarin played 301.

Ovechkin was a 20 year old NHL rookie while Panarin was a 24 year old rookie.

Panarin was a KHL all-star and and lead his team in scoring 2 years in a row. That team also employs Ilya Kovalchuk by the way.

I think Panarin should win the Calder because of the season he had and the rules in place allow it but to try to compare his situation to Ovechkin is ridiculous.

Spin it any way you want but to me something needs to change when this years Calder winner is likely a guy that was playing professional hockey when McDavid was 11 years old. To me, if you're playing pro hockey for more than 3 seasons after your draft year, you should no longer be eligible for the Calder. Panarin was a legitimate star player in the 2nd best league in the world before he came to the NHL.

Well said!

Bottom line is no one is saying Panarin should not be considered based on the rules that currently dictate the Calder. Under the current rules he should be considered and most likely should win. What is being questioned is the spirit of the award, and in that case it is unclear whether a player with the amount of experience and age of a Panarin should be considered.
 

Winston Wolf

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May 15, 2003
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I have no problem with Panarin winning it or another player like him winning it. This wasn't a case of a guy waiting forever to come to North America or something like that. This was literally his first chance to play in the NHL and he's still under 25, how can you make a player like him ineligible?

Heck, with the advent of scouting, they should just do away with the age restriction completely. That whole restriction was so another older Soviet like Makarov wouldn't come over and win another Calder. With the resources that NHL teams use on pro and amateur scouting and the increased drafting of Europeans and Russians, this should be a non-issue. The only issue is nobody drafting or showing much interest in Panarin earlier.
 

Bevans

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Apr 15, 2016
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Ovechkin was 20.

Eligibility Requirements: No player who has played greater than 2 (or 3) years in a professional league outside of the AHL and is older that 22 (or 23) years old is eligible for the Calder Trophy.

05-06 Ovechkin 20 y/o Still Wins
06-07 Malkin 20 y/o Still Wins
07-08 Kane 19 y/o Still Wins
08-09 Mason 21 y/o Still Wins
09-10 Myers 20 y/o Still Wins
10-11 Skinner 18 y/o Still Wins
11-12 Landeskog 19 y/o Still Wins
12-13 Huberdeau 19 y/o Still Wins
13-14 MacKinnon 18 y/o Still Wins
14-15 Ekblad 19 y/o Still Wins
15-16 Panarin 24/yo Doesn't Win

Sooooooo an age limit of 23?

Or would you exclude someone who played in the KHL (or SEL or FEL) for 2 or 3 full seasons from 16-18 then dominated the NHL at 18 or 19?

(For the record I think the whole debate is unnecessary but I'd much sooner accept a hard age limit of 23 than "263 games in the KHL because its's a good league and thats how long Panarin played and I want Mcdavid to win."

Also whys is the AHL okay but not all the other men's leagues in Europe? Arguably the AHL should be excluded before the KHL because you can't play in the A at 16 years old.
 

Beef Invictus

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Dec 21, 2009
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I agree. If someone played like 7-8 seasons in the AHL, made the jump to the NHL and were great, I'd think it's awkward to award them the Calder.


But...these cases are rather rare. The average ages of Calder winners have been posted. Panarin is an outlier. I don't think we need a rule change for the award. It is what it is.
 

Garbage Goal

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Apr 1, 2009
22,699
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Feel free to expand your definition of what is unforgivable then?

Is the issue men's leagues? Or is it only the KHL? And if its only the KHL, is the problem the KHL itself or how many years he played in it?

Kucherov played in the KHL before he played in the QMJHL. Would he have been excluded?

Ovechkin and Malkin played in the KHL, after they were drafted, are they excluded?

Are you suggesting that it's only okay to play in the KHL until drafted? Until 20? Or automatically excluded because you personally believe the KHL is different from the AHL or any other men's leagues.

If the issue is only that Panarin has played alot of games in the KHL then what is the game cut off?

You said the KHL is excluded because its a men's league. I pointed out it's also a 16 year old's league and gave lots of other examples of the same.

Why are all the other leagues okay but the KHL is not. The SEL and FEL are very competitive (and have 16-40 year olds as well)


I'm not defending Panarin I'm just putting you to proof on your arbitrary distinction. Flesh it out.

I quite literally have posted what you're looking for in almost every post I've made on this topic, others have also told you similarly:

He has literally 3.2 seasons worth of FULL 82 NHL seasons worth of games played in what is universally considered to be the second highest level of play in the world, the KHL. Not the SEL, FEL, or DEL and not a season or two worth of games, but literally 3 and a fifth worth of NHL seasons in the KHL. There's obviously some big context there that you conveniently skimped over. Then add in that he barely makes the NHL age cut-off for the Calder (which some would consider to be too high) and you're skipping over even more context.

Bye. Not bothering with someone who either can't grasp what someone's saying or acts intentionally obtuse for no apparent reason.

I agree. If someone played like 7-8 seasons in the AHL, made the jump to the NHL and were great, I'd think it's awkward to award them the Calder.


But...these cases are rather rare. The average ages of Calder winners have been posted. Panarin is an outlier. I don't think we need a rule change for the award. It is what it is.

It really wouldn't be hard to invent a caveat that would make this impossible. Just throw in a reasonable games played limit in comparable men's leagues on top of the age restriction. Not real reason to not change the requirements if you actually believe they're currently flawed.

Then again it's also some trophy going to professional athletes I have no relationship with so it doesn't really matter. Still awkward, like you said, to give a rookie award to someone who is by no definition a rookie. He's a rookie to the NHL, but if the award and the definition of being a rookie were quite that simple and literal there wouldn't be an age restriction, which there currently is.
 
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Bevans

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Apr 15, 2016
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I quite literally have posted what you're looking for in almost every post I've made on this topic, others have also told you similarly:



Bye. Not bothering with someone who either can't grasp what someone's saying or acts intentionally obtuse for no apparent reason.



It really wouldn't be hard to invent a caveat that would make this impossible. Just throw in a reasonable games played limit in comparable men's leagues on top of the age restriction. Not real reason to not change the requirements if you actually believe they're currently flawed.

Then again it's also some trophy going to professional athletes I have no relationship with so it doesn't really matter. Still awkward, like you said, to give a rookie award to someone who is by no definition a rookie. He's a rookie to the NHL, but if the award and the definition of being a rookie were quite that simple and literal there wouldn't be an age restriction, which there currently is.


Cool got it. The modified rule is no more than 3.2 season's in the KHL(only) and you're not allowed to barely make the age cut off.

Fascinating.
 

FLYguy3911

Sanheim Lover
Oct 19, 2006
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Great timing from everyone's favorite talent evaluator about his biggest misses. :laugh:
Gostisbehere is the biggest miss that has lingered constantly in my mind for the past year. Some may say counter that he was a third-round pick, or that I did have him toward the tail end of my top NHL prospect rankings before his breakout season, so it wasn't that big a miss. But anytime a player becomes a star -- as he has -- and you didn't have him close to that range, it's a significant miss. In this case, it's about a bigger issue.

There has been a steady progression of the way I evaluate players. I started at a point where I wanted guys who scored a bunch and play a high-skill game, everything else be damned. I realized I was missing attributes such as two-way hockey IQ and not accounting for performance not captured by numbers, and shifted toward another end, which was taking the best players in an age group. This seemed like a good idea; I wasn't so worried about "projecting" players, because I felt that was an excuse for taking big guys and hoping they figure it out skill-wise. In fact, I've come to the conclusion the opposite is true. In general, taking the best players in an age group is the best plan, but projecting is important, though not from "athletic" types who you hope develop hockey skills, and not from hockey players who you hope develop the other athletic skills.

Applying this to Gostisbehere, he was a pretty good player in his age group though he wasn't dominant for a long period of time. He wasn't an elite college player until he was 20, and played in a weak conference. He looked good but not amazing at the IIHF World Junior Championship.

But, he has the hockey skills. He's a fantastic skater, and a great and imaginative puck mover. He wasn't great defensively to begin in college, or to begin in his pro career, but he kept learning how to win battles and make the most of his hockey skills.

This type of development isn't a guarantee. There are plenty of high-skill guys who have floundered away in the AHL, as they didn't develop off-puck skills. I also still believe you can't just go after skill, as other attributes can combine to make a top player, and you should consider who the best players in an age group are. But when checking the biggest gaps in terms of draft-pick value compared to NHL value, the players with the biggest ones are highly skilled at an initial point, who then develop the other parts of their game later. This is what is truly meant by the term upside, and upside means a lot in projecting prospects.

Gostisbehere was an upside prospect. I've gotten too far away from valuing this kind of player, and it's an adjustment I will make going forward.
http://www.espn.com/nhl/insider/sto...gostisbehere-players-were-misjudged-prospects (insider)
 

FlyingSlovak

Registered User
Feb 20, 2014
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0
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Damn, sadly Ghost's not very good this season. But I really hope and also believe he will pick it up. Too talented not to. Will it be this season or the next one remains to be seen...but man, those leafs fans on the main board are really unbeareble. With all that talent up front their cockiness skyrocketed. Rielly ´s top 20 dmen now.

All I know is if Provorov hits sophomore slump (this may happen even though Ivan seems like a veteran out there already) that place will be hell.
 

BillDineen

Former Flyer / Extinct Dinosaur Advisor
Aug 9, 2009
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I am expecting Ghost to sign a bridge contract this summer given how the season has gone.
 

FlyingSlovak

Registered User
Feb 20, 2014
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Sure, me too. But it is what it is. I still believe in the kid though and I am not ready to label him a bust like some people on the main board are. They all act now like flyers fans overhyped him last season but truth is everybody talked about him. Actually, I don ´t care. But it really is funny how some folks can be so short sighted.
 

WIP CALLER

Registered User
Aug 18, 2016
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I guess Aaron ekblad is also in bust territory after not repeating his rookie success and seeing a decrease in points for the 3rd straight year...
 

Captain Dave Poulin

Imaginary Cat
Apr 30, 2015
68,333
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A bust? So many Johnny-come-lately fans of hockey. Back in the day, the sophomore jinx was basically expected and forgiven. Give him some time.

It's also a product of the nonsense of the main board (and in a broader sense, the miasma that is the worldwide internet). Some people don't know what they are watching when they watch hockey, some people think that by putting down another team's player it makes their player look better (e.g. Rielly), a whole lot of people like to wind up the Flyers fanbase because they hate us, and even more people just like to wind up other people full stop, God knows why (aside from the mental ravages of puberty). I know that you know all this, I am just saying.

They can eat it.
 
Feb 19, 2003
66,406
24,841
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many people want results yesterday and they want these kids to step into the best pro league on the planet and look like they belonged from day 1. It just isnt going to happen. Unless you are a once in a generation player that isnt the case.
All the kids we have waiting in the pipeline are going to go thru their ups and downs. Maybe not even right away, but it will happen.
Some arent going to have the patience to deal with it and start labeling these kids busts, disappointments ect ect because they are not allstars right away.
 

Captain Dave Poulin

Imaginary Cat
Apr 30, 2015
68,333
200,592
Tokyo, JP
many people want results yesterday and they want these kids to step into the best pro league on the planet and look like they belonged from day 1. It just isnt going to happen. Unless you are a once in a generation player that isnt the case.
All the kids we have waiting in the pipeline are going to go thru their ups and downs. Maybe not even right away, but it will happen.
Some arent going to have the patience to deal with it and start labeling these kids busts, disappointments ect ect because they are not allstars right away.

Yep, and it's our job to push back against them without getting banned.
 
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