Prospect Info: Pick #78 - Shayne Gostisbehere, Defenseman, Union College (NCAA)

[Sam Spade]

This is great stuff.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=51393653&postcount=20

Guy creates an account, writes a great, and very prophetic post on Gostisbehere, then is never heard from again.

 

[Rebels57]

This is great stuff.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=51393653&postcount=20

Guy creates an account, writes a great, and very prophetic post on Gostisbehere, then is never heard from again.

Legend..or proof of time travel?

 

[Embiid]

This is great stuff.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=51393653&postcount=20

Guy creates an account, writes a great, and very prophetic post on Gostisbehere, then is never heard from again.

It's cool to see such prophetic posts and I think they should be recognized.

 

[tade]

Ghost and his sister.

 

[tade]

**** him!



Let's go! Give it to Ghost!

Awarding 24 years old player who played as a pro for 4 years in the 2nd best league in the world before coming to the NHL as a rookie of the year + who had the opportunity to play next to Patrick Kane for the whole season. What a joke. Those criteria needs to change.

 

[Curufinwe]

Maybe drop the max age from 25 to 23.

 

[OzFlyers]

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Some good rookies this season. McDavid very much lived up to the hype. He would likely be a unanimous choice if he stayed healthy. While I'd obviously like Ghost to win, my guess is Panarin-McD-Ghost finish.

 

[Cyborg LeClair]

I think all 3 have good arguments for winning the Calder and won't be upset with whatever the outcome is. I think it's a huge accomplishment for the Flyers to have a finalist in one of the strongest rookie classes in the last decade

 

[Hiesenberg]

The parade of tweets about Panarins age had me crying earlier.

I saw one person tweet:

Ghost is the first Calder Trophy Finalist since 1987 when it was Ron Hextall/Luc Robitaille/Artemi Panarin

I'm still laughing as I typed it.

 

[Rebels57]

Some good rookies this season. McDavid very much lived up to the hype. He would likely be a unanimous choice if he stayed healthy. While I'd obviously like Ghost to win, my guess is Panarin-McD-Ghost finish.

I dont think McD finishes ahead of Ghost, as his points didnt have much impact on game results like Ghost.

I agree Panarin wins though.

 

[Flyotes]

The parade of tweets about Panarins age had me crying earlier.

I saw one person tweet:

Ghost is the first Calder Trophy Finalist since 1987 when it was Ron Hextall/Luc Robitaille/Artemi Panarin

I'm still laughing as I typed it.

Boom. Got me. hah.

 

[StateOfHexcellence]

Luc R didn't deserve that award.

Hexy got robbed because he was a flyer and his fiesty nature.

He was Conn Smythe for cripes sakes and I know they voted before the playoffs ended but i was pissed Luc got it.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Luc R didn't deserve that award.

Hexy got robbed because he was a flyer and his fiesty nature.

He was Conn Smythe for cripes sakes and I know they voted before the playoffs ended but i was pissed Luc got it.

Forget the Conn Smythe; he won the damned Vezina!

 

[Rebels57]

Forget the Conn Smythe; he won the damned Vezina!

Yeah that made no sense..

Best goalie in the entire league but not the best rookie? C'mon. If you are the BEST GOALIE IN THE LEAGUE as a Rookie, and your fellow nominees aren't the best at their positions, than you should win RoTY.

 

[Garbage Goal]

What people keep choosing to intentionally neglect or are unable to grasp with Panarin is that it's not just his age, it's the fact that he has several season's worth of professional level play in what most would consider the highest level of play after the NHL. He's not a rookie in any sense that makes sense.

Going by the awards description though, he does deserve to win it. Doesn't make it any less stupid though.

 

[Kermit the Prog]

Since the Calder has more often than not been about scoring (not to mention the Norris Trophy), from the Useless Statistics Department:

The top-20 forwards scored at an average of .951/ppg in 2015-16
Panarin scored at an average of 96.3/ppg in 2015-16 - a 1% improvement over the top-20 scoring forwards (96.3/95.1)

The top-20 d-men scored at an average of .700/ppg in 2015-16
Gostisbehere scored at an average of .719/ppg in 2015-16 - a 3% improvement over the top-20 scoring d-men. (71.9/70.0)

Something could be said about McDavid's PPG, but I only wanted to use players who were actually in the top-20 in each general position for comparison, which mitigates against players who missed significant time.

So, coming full circle, if it is about scoring, when being position "neutral," Gostisbehere had the better scoring season, comparatively.

 

[Audible Velvet]

Since the Calder has more often than not been about scoring (not to mention the Norris Trophy), from the Useless Statistics Department:

The top-20 forwards scored at an average of .951/ppg in 2015-16
Panarin scored at an average of 96.3/ppg in 2015-16 - a 1% improvement over the top-20 scoring forwards (96.3/95.1)

The top-20 d-men scored at an average of .700/ppg in 2015-16
Gostisbehere scored at an average of .719/ppg in 2015-16 - a 3% improvement over the top-20 scoring d-men. (71.9/70.0)

Something could be said about McDavid's PPG, but I only wanted to use players who were actually in the top-20 in each general position for comparison, which mitigates against players who missed significant time.

So, coming full circle, if it is about scoring, when being position "neutral," Gostisbehere had the better scoring season, comparatively.

Thank you

 

[Bevans]

What people keep choosing to intentionally neglect or are unable to grasp with Panarin is that it's not just his age, it's the fact that he has several season's worth of professional level play in what most would consider the highest level of play after the NHL. He's not a rookie in any sense that makes sense.

Going by the awards description though, he does deserve to win it. Doesn't make it any less stupid though.

What you're choosing to neglect or are unable to grasp is that Europeans are able to play in leagues like the KHL, SEL, FEL, DEL and Swiss league as young as 16 or 17. If you were to take these leagues out of the equation you'd bar almost any European players (Ovechkin, Matthews, Malkin etc) from winning because they may play in a men's league before they even play junior hockey (Kucherov).

Not to mention the fact that AHL is another league (of men) that many players compete in before joining the NHL.

By forgoing men's leagues the top 3 picks from this years draft would be ineligible. Now there's an award everyone will want to win.

 

[Garbage Goal]

What you're choosing to neglect or are unable to grasp is that Europeans are able to play in leagues like the KHL, SEL, FEL, DEL and Swiss league as young as 16 or 17. If you were to take these leagues out of the equation you'd bar almost any European players (Ovechkin, Matthews, Malkin etc) from winning because they may play in a men's league before they even play junior hockey (Kucherov).

Not to mention the fact that AHL is another league (of men) that many players compete in before joining the NHL.

By forgoing men's leagues the top 3 picks from this years draft would be ineligible. Now there's an award everyone will want to win.

Except that I never said anything about eliminating any player who played any games in another league? Nice word-stuffing there.

He has literally 3.2 seasons worth of FULL 82 NHL seasons worth of games played in what is universally considered to be the second highest level of play in the world, the KHL. Not the SEL, FEL, or DEL and not a season or two worth of games, but literally 3 and a fifth worth of NHL seasons in the KHL. There's obviously some big context there that you conveniently skimped over. Then add in that he barely makes the NHL age cut-off for the Calder (which some would consider to be too high) and you're skipping over even more context.

Also, for the record, I don't know the European leagues super intricately, but I do know there's at least one lower level of play in the MHL that you skipped. I also know that there's relegation in Europe. The KHL stands out as the universal consensus for second highest level of play, but you also skipped at least one league that I know of. On top of all that context you skipped.

Feel free to keep word-stuffing though to defend a guy you have no real need to defend, especially when I already am on record for saying that Panarin deserves to win it going by the current definition of the award. The definition of the award is flawed though.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Panarin had five years of pro experience in the KHL prior to this year. That's quite different from all the other players mentioned. Age does matter though when in combination with experience. All the others played or will play in the NHL as teenagers.

Matthews - 1 year in NLA
Laine - 1 year in Liiga
Puljujarvi - 2 years in Liiga
Malkin - 3 years in RSL
Ovechkin - 4 years in RSL

The last two lost a year of potentially playing in the NHL earlier due to the lockout.

 

[Garbage Goal]

Panarin had five years of pro experience in the KHL prior to this year. That's quite different from all the other players mentioned. Age does matter though when in combination with experience. All the others played or will play in the NHL as teenagers.

Matthews - 1 year in NLA
Laine - 1 year in Liiga
Puljujarvi - 2 years in Liiga
Malkin - 3 years in RSL
Ovechkin - 4 years in RSL

The last two lost a year of potentially playing in the NHL earlier due to the lockout.

Nah man, you're just "choosing to neglect or are unable to grasp" things.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I'm fine with the qualifications of the award though. Panarin is an outlier since the lockout.

05-06 Ovechkin 20 y/o
06-07 Malkin 20 y/o
07-08 Kane 19 y/o
08-09 Mason 21 y/o
09-10 Myers 20 y/o
10-11 Skinner 18 y/o
11-12 Landeskog 19 y/o
12-13 Huberdeau 19 y/o
13-14 MacKinnon 18 y/o
14-15 Ekblad 19 y/o

That was their ages by the time they were awarded. So everybody but Mason (for a goalie that's insanely young however) played their rookie year as a teenager at some point.

 

[Bevans]

Except that I never said anything about eliminating any player who played any games in another league? Nice word-stuffing there.

He has literally 3.2 seasons worth of FULL 82 NHL seasons worth of games played in what is universally considered to be the second highest level of play in the world, the KHL. Not the SEL, FEL, or DEL and not a season or two worth of games, but literally 3 and a fifth worth of NHL seasons in the KHL. There's obviously some big context there that you conveniently skimped over. Then add in that he barely makes the NHL age cut-off for the Calder (which some would consider to be too high) and you're skipping over even more context.

Also, for the record, I don't know the European leagues super intricately, but I do know there's at least one lower level of play in the MHL that you skipped. I also know that there's relegation in Europe. The KHL stands out as the universal consensus for second highest level of play, but you also skipped at least one league that I know of. On top of all that context you skipped.

Feel free to keep word-stuffing though to defend a guy you have no real need to defend, especially when I already am on record for saying that Panarin deserves to win it going by the current definition of the award. The definition of the award is flawed though.

Feel free to expand your definition of what is unforgivable then?

Is the issue men's leagues? Or is it only the KHL? And if its only the KHL, is the problem the KHL itself or how many years he played in it?

Kucherov played in the KHL before he played in the QMJHL. Would he have been excluded?

Ovechkin and Malkin played in the KHL, after they were drafted, are they excluded?

Are you suggesting that it's only okay to play in the KHL until drafted? Until 20? Or automatically excluded because you personally believe the KHL is different from the AHL or any other men's leagues.

If the issue is only that Panarin has played alot of games in the KHL then what is the game cut off?

You said the KHL is excluded because its a men's league. I pointed out it's also a 16 year old's league and gave lots of other examples of the same.

Why are all the other leagues okay but the KHL is not. The SEL and FEL are very competitive (and have 16-40 year olds as well)


I'm not defending Panarin I'm just putting you to proof on your arbitrary distinction. Flesh it out.

 

[Bevans]

Nah man, you're just "choosing to neglect or are unable to grasp" things.

Are you quoting me or yourself? Those are your words.