Phoenix XXV: Anyone in the theatre seen a pale horse?

[Ernie]

Court of law pretty much already acknowledged the NHL's ability to block the relocations.

Your interpretation of that ruling is incorrect. The ruling gave them far from carte blanche in that situation. The thrust of the court's ruling was that the league was the rightful owner of the team, not Moyes.

 

[NHLfan4life]

I'll keep that in mind, given your profile says "Glendale".



IME life is rarely that simple.

deal.

 

[goyotes]

The Phoenix Coyotes currently sit 6th place in the West, after finishing 4th in the West last year, yet their attendance is 11,626 this year, which is down from the dead last ranking of 11,989 they averaged last year. The team is having success on the ice, yet fans are not showing up. Last year, Phoenix also had an average ticket price of $37.45 which ranked 27th in the league. Despite cheap ticket prices and a quality team on the ice, fans still aren't showing up.

One would think that if the team really meant something to the fans that they would go to the arena, support the team, which would generate revenue dollars and make their team much more attractive for a prospective owner to purchase them and keep them in Glendale. That isn't happening.

How good was attendance in Winnipeg when the fans knew the team might relocate? I'm just saying I heard all the excuses for Winnipeg's attendance problems.

Having said that, I am regularly disappointed by the lack of fan support. Looks like another decent crowd for Nucks game Tuesday, but the Flames game Thursday looks like another 12,000 in attendance. Game after is Chicago and that will be another sell out.

The problem is season ticket fan base. I'm told the STH base is about 4,000. Last year the team didn't get a jump with STH numbers based largely on the fact that no one was sure the team wasn't at best a lame duck. If MH does buy the team I think the first order of business will be to double the STH base, and add the type of corporate sponsors that bring $$$.

 

[Retail1LO*]

Depending on how you read the NHL Constitution and how Canadian and US federal laws apply, either the NHL or the Toronto Maple Leafs own the rights to the Southern Ontario market. Why would they vote to allow someone to relocate to that market without cashing in?

SO could easily bring a $700M or so expansion fee/rights payment to TOR. Why would the NHL give that up forever?

Why is it that 3 teams exist within...20 miles of one another in New York, but Toronto needs to have southern Ontario all to itself?

 

[Bittco]

i haven't really seen this brought up in the threads (ok i really only have been reading for the past 5 or so) but I wonder if the NHL does any sort of backdeal with Glendale that if another team moves or expansion is on the table at some point in the future they would be given first crack. Obviously it is something that would be off the record and I doubt it would be any real solution but it might help everyone slide out of this a little (consider it a stick of butter for the wormhole).

 

[AllByDesign]

Just lock GWI, the NHL and the CoG in a freaking room and get this done. The length of time is excessive but the NHL seems to have some pretty good patience, lucky for us in Glendale.

This should have been the M.O. from the beginning. They not only left GWI out of the room but excluded them from evaluating the deal my not providing documents... to the city's detriment of course. I agree with what you are saying though.

 

[MountainHawk]

Your interpretation of that ruling is incorrect. The ruling gave them far from carte blanche in that situation. The thrust of the court's ruling was that the league was the rightful owner of the team, not Moyes.

OK, if that's how your red tinted glasses want to see things, feel free. But there is no question at all that the NHL can prevent a team from moving. It happened with St. Louis, it happened once with Phoenix. The NHL owners have a right to approve who their ownership partners are, and if they don't want to approve a ownership group that plans on relocating over an ownership group that is going to stay in the existing market, there is nothing that can be done to change that.

 

[Dado]

But hell, why let fact get in the way of whinging about crass commercialism.

Fundamental rule of existence: an entertaining story is better than a true story.

Especially true in dating.

 

[MountainHawk]

Why is it that 3 teams exist within...20 miles of one another in New York, but Toronto needs to have southern Ontario all to itself?

There were rights fees payments to the NYR when the NYI came in, and to NYR, NYI and PHI when NJD moved in, so I'm not sure I understand the question.

Surely, if it's Toronto's asset, they have the right to set the price of that asset?

 

[Confucius]

I really have to question why there hasn't been much of a grass roots effort to save the coyotes. Other than a couple rallies with a few hundred people (exagerated) and couple of love in's at city council meetings. I have not really seen the kind of save the coyotes campaigns as we seen when winnipeg lost their team. I believe the general public raised $6 million of there monies towards the price to keep the team in Winnipeg. With the short falls of the bond sale a little cash from the public could go along way to showing potential investors it's a sound investment.

Support rallies would have done wonders. It would have been a huge statement to GWI to take a hike. However the few here just scoffed, and posted replies like it didn't help Winnipeg, when I mentioned it a week or so ago. Who knows why Glendale never staged a save the Yotes rally, but then again maybe it's obvious.

 

[Retail1LO*]

There were rights fees payments to the NYR when the NYI came in, and to NYR, NYI and PHI when NJD moved in, so I'm not sure I understand the question.

Surely, if it's Toronto's asset, they have the right to set the price of that asset?

No...was just curious as to why 700M. Quite a chunk of change for sure. I wasn't aware anything in hockey was worth that much. LOL

 

[Confucius]

Why is it that 3 teams exist within...20 miles of one another in New York, but Toronto needs to have southern Ontario all to itself?

Exactly and why more than one team in NY anyway. I mean, New Yorkers are already hockey fans anyway. Why would they need more than 1 team?

 

[AllByDesign]

The problem is season ticket fan base. I'm told the STH base is about 4,000. Last year the team didn't get a jump with STH numbers based largely on the fact that no one was sure the team wasn't at best a lame duck. If MH does buy the team I think the first order of business will be to double the STH base, and add the type of corporate sponsors that bring $$$.

On the season ticket front, The Coyotes had one paw tied behind their back at the start of the season, though we a far past the point of quipping over Season tickets.

For the bolded part you need a solid marketing/sales plan. Keep in mind the NHL as owners have been trying to improve on what you are describing, and to think MH would have an easier go than the NHL given their experience is a tough pill.

 

[MountainHawk]

No...was just curious as to why 700M. Quite a chunk of change for sure. I wasn't aware anything in hockey was worth that much. LOL

SO is a gold mine with the cap. Basically a printing press of cash. The expansion fee/rights payment is going to reflect that.

It's not even that much. I think Houston paid over $1B in expansion fees to join the NFL.

 

[y2kcanucks]

How good was attendance in Winnipeg when the fans knew the team might relocate? I'm just saying I heard all the excuses for Winnipeg's attendance problems.

About the same figure as it is right now in Glendale, with a smaller arena during a time when average NHL attendance was a lot less than it is today. Winnipeg averaged 73.5% capacity in their final year (which I agree is bad, but today you have a couple beams below that mark without a threat of relocation), while Phoenix has operated around 60%. Not to mention Winnipeg played in an old decrepit building.

Having said that, I am regularly disappointed by the lack of fan support. Looks like another decent crowd for Nucks game Tuesday, but the Flames game Thursday looks like another 12,000 in attendance. Game after is Chicago and that will be another sell out.

There's a decent crowd for the Nucks game Tuesday because of a huge Canuck fan contingent going to the game. We have fans following the team on our road trip, as evidenced by the game against the Kings and Ducks.

The problem is season ticket fan base. I'm told the STH base is about 4,000. Last year the team didn't get a jump with STH numbers based largely on the fact that no one was sure the team wasn't at best a lame duck. If MH does buy the team I think the first order of business will be to double the STH base, and add the type of corporate sponsors that bring $$$.

Yes, but my point is, and you allude to it earlier on in this post, that the fans can control this to a degree. No business person is going to relocate a team, or not be interested in purchasing a team, that's being well supported by its fans and generating healthy revenues. This has been the story in Phoenix since it arrived from Winnipeg. Why would the next 3-5 years be any different? And I think that's probably why GWI has a huge concern over the parking rights. If the current fan support trend continues, there's no possible way that the revenue generated from the parking rights will reach the levels that the CoG would need to at least break even.

 

[Confucius]

No...was just curious as to why 700M. Quite a chunk of change for sure. I wasn't aware anything in hockey was worth that much. LOL

I would think the Leafs are, afterall they make over 80 million per year in operating income.

 

[crazed323]

About the same figure as it is right now in Glendale, with a smaller arena during a time when average NHL attendance was a lot less than it is today. Winnipeg averaged 73.5% capacity in their final year (which I agree is bad, but today you have a couple beams below that mark without a threat of relocation), while Phoenix has operated around 60%. Not to mention Winnipeg played in an old decrepit building.



There's a decent crowd for the Nucks game Tuesday because of a huge Canuck fan contingent going to the game. We have fans following the team on our road trip, as evidenced by the game against the Kings and Ducks.



Yes, but my point is, and you allude to it earlier on in this post, that the fans can control this to a degree. No business person is going to relocate a team, or not be interested in purchasing a team, that's being well supported by its fans and generating healthy revenues. This has been the story in Phoenix since it arrived from Winnipeg. Why would the next 3-5 years be any different? And I think that's probably why GWI has a huge concern over the parking rights. If the current fan support trend continues, there's no possible way that the revenue generated from the parking rights will reach the levels that the CoG would need to at least break even.

absolutely

 

[MoreOrr]

I don't know what is more staggering, that this story has continued for so long, or that some of you have had the dedication and interest to stay with it for so long and in all of these threads. Don't know whether to applaud you or have sympathy for you, or just

Just saw that that was my post #7777... Hopefully that means something.

 

[Killion]

But hell, why let fact get in the way of whinging about crass commercialism.

When did you move to Arizona Don?. I see you havent lost any of your rage, firing-off faxes & emails to the tune of about 600 per day. Drummers.

Oh, and sorry for misspelling the name of your foundation on the donation cheque. Replacements in the mail...

 

[MountainHawk]

No...was just curious as to why 700M. Quite a chunk of change for sure. I wasn't aware anything in hockey was worth that much. LOL

Just to be more exact, I figured $50M in perpetuity has a present value of around $700M.

 

[AllByDesign]

I don't know what is more staggering, that this story has continued for so long, or that some of you have had the dedication and interest to stay with it for so long and in all of these threads. Don't know whether to applaud you or have sympathy for you, or just

No need for concern. I have started a new business venture in which I charge HF Boards, members, a fee to help wean them off the Coyotes saga. This in preperation for the eventuality of the thread closing.

I operate out of my basement with techniques in shock therapy, crying, and hurling insults. Also a "Cleansing" that involves lemon juice on the pupils... viscious stuff!

Interested?

 

[wpgyotes]

CBC.ca reported that the NHL has done several detailed analyses of the Winnipeg market, and according to a couple of sources, the league estimates revenues of about $70 million per season. That would be double the revenue generated by the Coyotes and about $20 million more than the revenue generated by the Atlanta Thrashers, another franchise with ownership issues that could move to Winnipeg. But it would still be the lowest among Canadian teams.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news?slug=nc-coyotesjets030711

TNSE isn't going to use the NHL team as their lone source of revenue anyway. Owning an NHL franchise isn't a lucrative money-making venture in most markets, and I'm sure they're aware of that. Hence the other revenue streams they've been building to operate around and/or in conjunction with the hockey team...

MTS Iceplex: Huge 3-rink complex in a city strapped for minor hockey ice $$; Site right on the opposite side of Portage Avenue (currently used as an exhibition hall but could be a downtown hotel if demand is there) $$; MTS Centre (owned and operated by TNSE, that in itself is hugely important): Concerts and events $$.

They wouldn't NEED the NHL team to bring in a ton of revenue to operate it successfully. Is $70M enough to keep the lights on and break even? Should be.

 

[kdb209]

No need for concern. I have started a new business venture in which I charge HF Boards, members, a fee to help wean them off the Coyotes saga. This in preperation for the eventuality of the thread closing.

I operate out of my basement with techniques in shock therapy, crying, and hurling insults. Also a "Cleansing" that involves lemon juice on the pupils... viscious stuff!

Interested?

 

[Steve Passless*]

SO is a gold mine with the cap. Basically a printing press of cash. The expansion fee/rights payment is going to reflect that.

It's not even that much. I think Houston paid over $1B in expansion fees to join the NFL.

I've never heard anyone but Coyotes fans and Gary Bettman sneer that "that's nawt the price of a SOUTHUN AWNTARRRRRIO FRANCHOYSE."

I wonder if Clay Bennett "paid for an Oklahoma City franchise."

 

[AllByDesign]

KDB, I see you received my brochure.