Phoenix XXV: Anyone in the theatre seen a pale horse?

[tradeyoumooseforjets]

yes, i have lived in Glendale for 35 years. I am not ecstatic about the deal but I am less ecstatic about losing our team which I'm sure you can relate to. If MH does what he says he wants to do as far as marketing and managing the team, then it will work. We have had some clowns (including Gretsky) running the show here for too long. The CoG is doing what they can to resolve this. We are all tired of the theatrics and threats from both sides. Just lock GWI, the NHL and the CoG in a freaking room and get this done. The length of time is excessive but the NHL seems to have some pretty good patience, lucky for us in Glendale.

I don't wish losing a franchise that one cares about on anyone. The fortunate part for you is that you are in a market that the NHL covets, the dream of full US coverage and bigger markets is one they still hold on to. You at least will get every chance possible to keep your franchise. If it moves, you can rest assured it won't be because the NHL didn't care if left or not.

 

[MaskedSonja]

I don't know what is more staggering, that this story has continued for so long, or that some of you have had the dedication and interest to stay with it for so long and in all of these threads. Don't know whether to applaud you or have sympathy for you, or just

Just saw that that was my post #7777... Hopefully that means something.

Our dedication is more like

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

Why is it that 3 teams exist within...20 miles of one another in New York, but Toronto needs to have southern Ontario all to itself?

Exactly and why more than one team in NY anyway. I mean, New Yorkers are already hockey fans anyway. Why would they need more than 1 team?

Why does any city "need" any number of hockey teams?

 

[mouser]

Your interpretation of that ruling is incorrect. The ruling gave them far from carte blanche in that situation. The thrust of the court's ruling was that the league was the rightful owner of the team, not Moyes.

That's not correct. The ruling had nothing to do with whether Moyes or the NHL owned the team.

Baum's fundamental ruling was that the section/process of bankruptcy code Balsillie was requesting the court use to transfer ownership of the team and relocate against the NHL's wishes did not adequately protect the NHL's interests and therefore the court could not do so.

 

[tradeyoumooseforjets]

I don't wish losing a franchise that one cares about on anyone. The fortunate part for you is that you are in a market that the NHL covets, the dream of full US coverage and bigger markets is one they still hold on to. You at least will get every chance possible to keep your franchise. If it moves, you can rest assured it won't be because the NHL didn't care if left or not.

And you obviously have muncipal support that rivals any I can remember in recent times. Granted, painting themselves in that corner has helped with that but I can't think of another sports franchise in any league that has had this level of support from both the league and local government to keep a franchise.

 

[Confucius]

Why does any city "need" any number of hockey teams?

Well you need some actual teams and they have to play somewhere. So I guess a few cities need one.

Edit to add: Maybe I should say a few teams need a few cities.

 

[Fidel Astro]

Maybe what I was asking was if this team is so very very important to Glendale and surrounding area. Why has no one (including the city itself) taken the time to organize such a rally to generate support and revenue that could really bring a city together to reach a common goal. Although this effort in Winnipeg didn't save the Jets no one in their right mind could ever question the support for the Jets. I have a really hard time feeling sorry people (although I do feel for the fans) who fail to take things into their own hands. Why would a fan base sit there and say it's out of my control when it is still very much in their control. If MH were to see a rally of this magnitude in Glendale to save the coyotes, I would bet everything I own on him coming up with the extra money to complete this transaction.

I agree with this x 1,000.

Throughout this entire ordeal, I've been waiting for Coyotes fans to get together and show everyone -- the potential new owner, the NHL, the "relocationists" up here in Canada -- that they do, indeed, give a **** about the team.

It hasn't happened yet, and I don't believe it will happen, which really limits the amount of sympathy I have for the fans down there. The people of Arizona have shown, time and again, that they just don't care all that much about hockey.

There's nothing inherently wrong with that, either. For whatever reasons, hockey has remained a very small niche sport in that part of the world. That's fine... but it makes it seem a little ridiculous when you see Coyotes fans trying to argue about the team's importance to the area, or that there are "lots" of fans down there.

I think it's fair to say that most of us (myself included) who are in favour of repatriating this team would shut right up if we saw a "Save the Jets"-style rally in Phoenix. The fact that the Coyotes fans are so lacklustre in their support has, in my opinion, fueled a lot of the "they don't deserve a team" stuff, and cranked up the level of anti-sunbelt anger to unprecedented levels.

Coyotes fans: you have a team. You've been given all kinds of second and third chances and last minute above-and-beyond saves by the NHL that Winnipeg never got. The least you could do is pretend that you appreciate it. If you can't even do that, please return the team to someone who will.

 

[kdb209]

That's not correct. The ruling had nothing to do with whether Moyes or the NHL owned the team.

Baum's fundamental ruling was that the section/process of bankruptcy code Balsillie was requesting the court use to transfer ownership of the team and relocate against the NHL's wishes did not adequately protect the NHL's interests and therefore the court could not do so.

Yup. Judge Baum did everything he could to avoid ruling on anything on anti trust grounds - knowing that inevitable appeals would be to the detriment of the creditors.

And, as was brought up during the BK threads - there is significant legal precedent in allowing members of a Joint Venture (and a sports league, in particular) to choose whom they wish to admit and do business with - Fishman v Wirtz, Levin v NBA, NBA v SDC, Mid-South Grizzlies v. NFL.

One commonly quoted excerpt from the 7th Circuits ruling in Wirtz:

"The NBA does effectively have the power to pick its members since it can reject everyone selected by the incumbent until the right new owner comes along....It is clear that the second step-the act of voting the rejection-cannot by itself give rise to an antitrust violation.....While it is true that the antitrust laws apply to a professional athletic league, and that joint action by members of a league can have antitrust implications this is not such a case. Here the plaintiffs wanted to join with those unwilling to accept them, not to compete with them, but to be partners in the operation of a sports league for plaintiffs' profit."

 

[Ernie]

That's not correct. The ruling had nothing to do with whether Moyes or the NHL owned the team.

Baum's fundamental ruling was that the section/process of bankruptcy code Balsillie was requesting the court use to transfer ownership of the team and relocate against the NHL's wishes did not adequately protect the NHL's interests and therefore the court could not do so.

Which established the league as the owner of the team.

Either way, forcing a relocation through the courts has been done in the past (Oakland Raiders). And the NFL didn't have such a huge conflict of interest as the NHL does here.

 

[cheswick]

I agree with this x 1,000.

Throughout this entire ordeal, I've been waiting for Coyotes fans to get together and show everyone -- the potential new owner, the NHL, the "relocationists" up here in Canada -- that they do, indeed, give a **** about the team.

It hasn't happened yet, and I don't believe it will happen, which really limits the amount of sympathy I have for the fans down there. The people of Arizona have shown, time and again, that they just don't care all that much about hockey.

There's nothing inherently wrong with that, either. For whatever reasons, hockey has remained a very small niche sport in that part of the world. That's fine... but it makes it seem a little ridiculous when you see Coyotes fans trying to argue about the team's importance to the area, or that there are "lots" of fans down there.

I think it's fair to say that most of us (myself included) who are in favour of repatriating this team would shut right up if we saw a "Save the Jets"-style rally in Phoenix. The fact that the Coyotes fans are so lacklustre in their support has, in my opinion, fueled a lot of the "they don't deserve a team" stuff, and cranked up the level of anti-sunbelt anger to unprecedented levels.

Coyotes fans: you have a team. You've been given all kinds of second and third chances and last minute above-and-beyond saves by the NHL that Winnipeg never got. The least you could do is pretend that you appreciate it. If you can't even do that, please return the team to someone who will.

By definition a Coyotes fan does care if the team leaves. They are a fan. There are thousands of people who would be very upset by the team leaving. But no there is no widespread movement and the average Arizonan couldnt care less either way.

But that's besides the point. The NHL wants this team to stay as does the city of Glendale. They along with Matt Hulsizer doesn't care about the current lack of support. They see it as an opportunity to grow the game and gain support from all those indifferent people.

 

[MountainHawk]

Yup. Judge Baum did everything he could to avoid ruling on anything on anti trust grounds - knowing that inevitable appeals would be to the detriment of the creditors.

And, as was brought up during the BK threads - there is significant legal precedent in allowing members of a Joint Venture (and a sports league, in particular) to choose whom they wish to admit and do business with - Fishman v Wirtz, Levin v NBA, NBA v SDC, Mid-South Grizzlies v. NFL.

One commonly quoted excerpt from the 7th Circuits ruling in Wirtz:

"The NBA does effectively have the power to pick its members since it can reject everyone selected by the incumbent until the right new owner comes along....It is clear that the second step-the act of voting the rejection-cannot by itself give rise to an antitrust violation.....While it is true that the antitrust laws apply to a professional athletic league, and that joint action by members of a league can have antitrust implications this is not such a case. Here the plaintiffs wanted to join with those unwilling to accept them, not to compete with them, but to be partners in the operation of a sports league for plaintiffs' profit."

But, but clear and obvious court rulings won't matter if the owner wants to move an NHL to Canada.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I agree with this x 1,000.

Throughout this entire ordeal, I've been waiting for Coyotes fans to get together and show everyone -- the potential new owner, the NHL, the "relocationists" up here in Canada -- that they do, indeed, give a **** about the team.

It hasn't happened yet, and I don't believe it will happen, which really limits the amount of sympathy I have for the fans down there. The people of Arizona have shown, time and again, that they just don't care all that much about hockey.

There's nothing inherently wrong with that, either. For whatever reasons, hockey has remained a very small niche sport in that part of the world. That's fine... but it makes it seem a little ridiculous when you see Coyotes fans trying to argue about the team's importance to the area, or that there are "lots" of fans down there.

I think it's fair to say that most of us (myself included) who are in favour of repatriating this team would shut right up if we saw a "Save the Jets"-style rally in Phoenix. The fact that the Coyotes fans are so lacklustre in their support has, in my opinion, fueled a lot of the "they don't deserve a team" stuff, and cranked up the level of anti-sunbelt anger to unprecedented levels.

Coyotes fans: you have a team. You've been given all kinds of second and third chances and last minute above-and-beyond saves by the NHL that Winnipeg never got. The least you could do is pretend that you appreciate it. If you can't even do that, please return the team to someone who will.

Considering that the 'save-the-team' stuff has a history of futility, I don't see how it would even make the slightest bit of difference to you. Why? Because even if they pulled off some rally like that, the people with the opinion that they don't deserve a team would simply say it's too little, too late.

The fans will care about the team when the organization isn't on the cusp of leaving and actually puts forth a little bit of effort to win games, which until last season, wasn't happening.

 

[King of Arcadia]

I just hope everyone will still be friends when this is all done.

 

[mouser]

Which established the league as the owner of the team.

Either way, forcing a relocation through the courts has been done in the past (Oakland Raiders). And the NFL didn't have such a huge conflict of interest as the NHL does here.

That was an outcome of the ruling, not the fundamental ruling itself. There were only two bidders and the judge disqualified one of them.

 

[kdb209]

Which established the league as the owner of the team.

Either way, forcing a relocation through the courts has been done in the past (Oakland Raiders). And the NFL didn't have such a huge conflict of interest as the NHL does here.

Raiders I & II are a bad analogy here - they dealt with an incumbent owner moving a franchise, not the right of a league to block relocation by rejecting a new owner (and there is significant precedent supporting that right).

And Raiders II expicitly recognized a League's ownership of the rights to open markets and the right to demand a relocation fee equal to the difference in value of a franchise in the new location vs the old.

 

[MountainHawk]

The Raiders thing was actually very different. The leagues are on much shakier legal grounds trying to prevent a current owner from relocating.

 

[kdb209]

But, but clear and obvious court rulings won't matter if the owner wants to move an NHL to Canada.

Except for the pesky fact that the CCB has already chimed in with an advisory opinion that the NHL's relocation restrictions (as amended by By-Law 36) do not violate the Competition Act.

Boy this thread is turning into Judge Baum era nostolgia .

 

[Hoser]

Your interpretation of that ruling is incorrect. The ruling gave them far from carte blanche in that situation. The thrust of the court's ruling was that the league was the rightful owner of the team, not Moyes.

San Francisco Seals Ltd. v. National Hockey League (1974) established the NHL can block franchise relocations, based on the fact the member clubs are in business together to provide entertainment (in the form of professional hockey) in the most profitable way possible for each other. They don't compete against each other for money in a business sense: they compete against each other to generate revenue for each other.

The judge in the Seals' case ruled that if the team moved it could be detrimental to the business of the other teams, therefore it made sense that the other teams had a say in whether they were allowed to move and where they were moving.

There have been a couple other precedents set since then (notably cases between the NFL and the Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders), but fundamentally the Seals v. NHL case is still in force.


EDIT: Hmm, seems I took way too long to type up this post. Looks like I've been beaten to the punch!

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

The Nordiques relocation was much later then March. Wasn't til after the season that it was announce I think.

You're right - Wikipedia says it went down in May 1995.

 

[crazed323]

By definition a Coyotes fan does care if the team leaves. They are a fan. There are thousands of people who would be very upset by the team leaving. But no there is no widespread movement and the average Arizonan couldnt care less either way.

But that's besides the point. The NHL wants this team to stay as does the city of Glendale. They along with Matt Hulsizer doesn't care about the current lack of support. They see it as an opportunity to grow the game and gain support from all those indifferent people.QUOTE]

Thousands of people go to the hockey games currently. If these are the only people who care then what is the point. Winnipeg averaged around 12,000 in attendance yet 45-50,000 thousand people attended the rally to save the jets.

The NHL has had 15 years to grow the sport in Arizona. For a NHL team to be healthy they need tens of thousands of fans if not hundreds of thousands. If the coyotes leave glendale I think every fan or bandwagon jumper (last years playoffs) needs to look themselves in the mirror and ask What else could I have done to keep the coyotes here? I know there is alot more to keeping a franchise in Glendale then the only thing that matters is that the NHL MH and COG want a franchise here, because when push comes to shove it boils down to the fans. If they don't start to support the team whole heartedly it doesn't matter what happens now. They will be in the same situation down the road.

 

[goyotes]

I just hope everyone will still be friends when this is all done.

LMFAO. Best post ever.

 

[Hamilton Tigers]

There were rights fees payments to the NYR when the NYI came in, and to NYR, NYI and PHI when NJD moved in, so I'm not sure I understand the question.

Surely, if it's Toronto's asset, they have the right to set the price of that asset?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's more like it's the league's asset than the Leafs', isn't it?

The league has final say if a franchise can move to Hamilton, and the league will set any territorial compensation, if any, no?

 

[roccerfeller]

I agree with this x 1,000.

Throughout this entire ordeal, I've been waiting for Coyotes fans to get together and show everyone -- the potential new owner, the NHL, the "relocationists" up here in Canada -- that they do, indeed, give a **** about the team.

It hasn't happened yet, and I don't believe it will happen, which really limits the amount of sympathy I have for the fans down there. The people of Arizona have shown, time and again, that they just don't care all that much about hockey.

There's nothing inherently wrong with that, either. For whatever reasons, hockey has remained a very small niche sport in that part of the world. That's fine... but it makes it seem a little ridiculous when you see Coyotes fans trying to argue about the team's importance to the area, or that there are "lots" of fans down there.

I think it's fair to say that most of us (myself included) who are in favour of repatriating this team would shut right up if we saw a "Save the Jets"-style rally in Phoenix. The fact that the Coyotes fans are so lacklustre in their support has, in my opinion, fueled a lot of the "they don't deserve a team" stuff, and cranked up the level of anti-sunbelt anger to unprecedented levels.

Coyotes fans: you have a team. You've been given all kinds of second and third chances and last minute above-and-beyond saves by the NHL that Winnipeg never got. The least you could do is pretend that you appreciate it. If you can't even do that, please return the team to someone who will.

Phoenix fans, there is a lot of truth to Fidel's post here.

One great misconception among fans in the south is that everyone up here in Canada is a vulture frothing from the mouth ready to take away a team, or getting crazy at every single slight known, ready to pounce on the poor southern innocence that has not yet "quite" lost its virginity

But truthfully, I guarantee a majority of the Canadian, specifically Winnipeg and ville de Quebec fans (and to a different extent Hamilton fans) whom could be considered "relocationists" would NOT have any issue at all with all the drama that has been brewing down south, if there were monumental rallies or fan support.

It is a misnomer that the sole reason Winnipeg & Quebec city lost their teams was due to an evil Gary Bettman swooping down and stealing the team. I think that claim is outright ridiculous. He was a novice commissioner at the time, and there was a curiosity regarding southern teams - which I believe would have been born in sunbelt locations REGARDLESS due to expansions if somehow Winnipeg and Quebec City managed to survive the storm in the 90s (that is Atlanta and Phoenix would have had teams anyways), but no one was willing and able to own a team in the time period that existed.

Anyway that is turning tangential now, but worth mentioning for the record.

That said, I guarantee the southern fans that much of this emotional outburst and hating on southern teams would be nonexistent if people in Phoenix were getting together, 35 000k plus fans, raising millions and millions of dollars, to show support.

That is the difference between why the Canadian media weeps in memory of the Jets, but will not do so in memory of say the Coyotes should they move.

Its tough to balance this point, yet at the same time sympathize with true hockey fans down south. Its entirely related to many emotional Canadian fans feeling "they are not loving what we would love so much more!" type of ideal.

And, having been raised in the culture, I can tell you hockey to Canada is like american football to Texas. Everyone here - from recent immigrants to those born, bred, and brought up for generations has a soft spot for the sport. It kinda grows on you partly due to the cold ass winters.

This is my attempt at an explanation to southern fans, perhaps it might shed some light or insight on why "relocationists" believe what they do. It is understandable, I hope.

Make no mistake, many Canadian fans admire those who organize grassroots campaigns or for instance try to get people together to rally for support...but what seems insurmountable in the south, is simply a result of culture up here - hence the "Save the Jets" or "Save the Nords" rallies that naturally ended up with thousands and thousands of people protesting. Sure, it did no good, but it did show the rest of the NHL watching world at the time these cities really cared about their team.


Ironically, both Winnipeg and Quebec City have literally evolved and changed so much, all for the better since the teams left. Both cities are the fastest growing under a million in Canada and have made tremendous economic (along with Hamilton, Regina and Saskatoon, among others) gains & progress almost 180 degrees from their mid 90's statuses.

The differentiating factor here is Glendale is a large suburb, more influenced by Phoenix, whereas Winnipeg is a stand-alone city. But I do believe the "doom & gloom" suggested by Glendale, while bearing some truth, also is far fetched to a degree.

To me, it speaks more of a city council that lacks vision beyond politics. They could have implemented many of these things in the past, but only now because they are faced with such a situation are they scurrying to find the best band-aid possible. Just like Winnipeg had plenty of time to secure a new arena, but due to inept city council, it only mattered when it was too late.

(Maybe if the Pan Am Games were into play in Glendale, Scruggs would change her mind --> inside joke for Peggers)

 

[bacon25]

I just hope everyone will still be friends when this is all done.

 

[Hamilton Tigers]

That's not correct. The ruling had nothing to do with whether Moyes or the NHL owned the team.

Baum's fundamental ruling was that the section/process of bankruptcy code Balsillie was requesting the court use to transfer ownership of the team and relocate against the NHL's wishes did not adequately protect the NHL's interests and therefore the court could not do so.

Wasn't Judge Baum's priority the interests of the creditors, and was not the will of the creditors an important factor in his decision?

So long ago... Memory fuzzy...