Phoenix XXV: Anyone in the theatre seen a pale horse?

[Hamilton Tigers]

Why does any city "need" any number of hockey teams?

Ask mayor Scruggs.

 

[kdb209]

San Francisco Seals Ltd. v. National Hockey League (1974) established the NHL can block franchise relocations, based on the fact the member clubs are in business together to provide entertainment (in the form of professional hockey) in the most profitable way possible for each other. They don't compete against each other for money in a business sense: they compete against each other to generate revenue for each other.

The judge in the Seals' case ruled that if the team moved it could be detrimental to the business of the other teams, therefore it made sense that the other teams had a say in whether they were allowed to move and where they were moving.

There have been a couple other precedents set since then (notably cases between the NFL and the Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders), but fundamentally the Seals v. NHL case is still in force.

No. Seals v NHL is not in force, nor would it have been precedent anywhere outside of the Central District of California - it was never appealed to the 9th Circuit. By the time the case was settled the 'Nucks had already been in Vancouver (where the Seals were trying to move) for 4 years.

The district court ruling in Seals v NHL was based on a single entity defense - a defense that the 9th Circuit rejected in Raiders I.

 

[crazed323]

Where is all the explosive news reports one way or the other today? I thought Glendale was filing suit ...

 

[PhilTheThrillKessel]

Winnipeg citizen here. I don't know anything about this whole situation, but the buzz in the city is incredible. I'll always be a Leaf fan, and truthfully I don't care if the Jets come back (besides the fact I might be able to catch a Leaf game every few yrs), but the city is buzzing. Last yr when all these rumours started heating up I didn't think much of it, but idk, it's just my gut but I think the Coyotes will be here starting next yr. Obviously I have nothing to base that off, but gut, as I don't really know the logistics of this cluster****, but I just thought I'd share that. Nice to see Peggers looking forward to something.

 

[Jet]

LMFAO. Best post ever.

I was thinking the same thing.

Also wanted to comment goyotes that I think you have been handling yourself very well in this thread despite the constant barrage of attacks on your team and market. People can be extremely insensitive.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

How good was attendance in Winnipeg when the fans knew the team might relocate? I'm just saying I heard all the excuses for Winnipeg's attendance problems.

There was a big drop off for the last season. However, it was known before the last season in Winnipeg even started that the team was 100% for sure leaving -- no "might" about it. For most of this season and until recently many thought a deal would be done to keep the Coyotes in Phoenix -- in fact it still could happen even thought that is looking less likely at the moment. I don't think there is much of a comparison there.

GHOST

 

[Hamilton Tigers]

Winnipeg citizen here. I don't know anything about anything,

Why do you say that?

I'll always be a Leaf fan

Oh. That's why.

 

[goyotes]

According to local tv reporter B. Resnick, the GWI has $4million is assets as shown on their public filings. Not sure about level of E & O and D & O insurance coverage. To be sure, the lawsuit is not about making the CoG whole if they prove their claim and get a judgment.

Having said that, assuming the judgment would be for several millions. Without sufficent assets to pay the judgment, the Directors and Officers who are named could be on the hook personally for any judgment in excess of liability limits and GWI assets.

I don't care if you have balls as big as watermellons, looking down the barrel of a lawsuit and facing the chance as a Director that you could lose everything, will cause them to stop and ask some very hard questions of the GWI staffers. I have had the experience in representing clients on D & O claims. Tough talk turns to serious a** covering once the heat of litigation is turned up. Most litigants find the experience one of the most stressful they have ever suffered.

 

[PitbulI]

The Coyotes don't need a rally because they know Bettman will do almost anything to keep that team in Glendale.

A lot of negative press towards Winnipeg lately I see.

Goyotes, again, do you seriously think that the COG is the smartest concentration of people ever that they know their stance is 100% perfect and right? They are the ones who kept everyone but MH and the NHL out of the loop.

 

[PhilTheThrillKessel]

Why do you say that?



Oh. That's why.

Ahahaha good catch. Edited to make more sense

 

[goyotes]

I was thinking the same thing.

Also wanted to comment goyotes that I think you have been handling yourself very well in this thread despite the constant barrage of attacks on your team and market. People can be extremely insensitive.

Bottom line is, we are all hockey fans. I can respect that. Thanks.

 

[crazed323]

Winnipeg citizen here. I don't know anything about anything, but the buzz in the city is incredible. I'll always be a Leaf fan, and truthfully I don't care if the Jets come back (besides the fact I might be able to catch a Leaf game every few yrs), but the city is buzzing. Last yr when all these rumours started heating up I didn't think much of it, but idk, it's just my gut but I think the Coyotes will be here starting next yr. Obviously I have nothing to base that off, but gut, as I don't really know the logistics of this cluster****, but I just thought I'd share that. Nice to see Peggers looking forward to something.

There is a huge buzz in the City of Winnipeg. Although I am a new user to the boards I have followed them for quite sometime now. I was skeptical yet hopeful right up until the COG council meeting in the middle of December. When they were suggestinig that the COG would be putting bonds on sale to help finance the sale of the Coyotes to MH. I went from skeptical to a down right believer. There was no chance IMO that bonds would ever be able to be sold for what they were saying. I also believe that we are only days from staging a rally to welcome an NHL team to Winnipeg. On whatever day is determined that the deal is dead in Glendale (Winnipegers won't wait for an official announcement). There will be delays in rush hour traffic at Portage and Main. I might actually go down there tonight lol (wishful thinking).

 

[CasualFan]

I was thinking the same thing.

Also wanted to comment goyotes that I think you have been handling yourself very well in this thread despite the constant barrage of attacks on your team and market. People can be extremely insensitive.

A lot of these posts would seem to belong on fan message forums instead of the Business of Hockey. That said, I expect the barrage of attacks will be moving over to the Atlanta thread very soon.

 

[MountainHawk]

While I hope that the Coyotes stay in Phoenix, I will stay that most of the Winnipegers (is that right?) on this forum have been reasonable, and I really do hope the NHL goes back to Winnipeg in the very near future.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

TNSE isn't going to use the NHL team as their lone source of revenue anyway...

MTS Iceplex: Huge 3-rink complex in a city strapped for minor hockey ice $$; Site right on the opposite side of Portage Avenue (currently used as an exhibition hall but could be a downtown hotel if demand is there) $$; MTS Centre (owned and operated by TNSE, that in itself is hugely important): Concerts and events $$.

The Iceplex has 4 hockey rinks:

http://www.mtsiceplex.ca/page/show/268112-facilities-and-services

GHOST

 

[AllByDesign]

A grass-roots movement in Arizona would have no effect on the outcome of the purchase attempt. The City is already convinced they need the team, and the GWI is already convinced they know what is best for the tax payers.

Wearing the "Jets Rally" as a badge of honor is getting old. It is also a clear example of how little the grass-roots movement matters when it comes to a sports franchise re-locating.

 

[mouser]

Wasn't Judge Baum's priority the interests of the creditors, and was not the will of the creditors an important factor in his decision?

So long ago... Memory fuzzy...

As a bankruptcy judge, yes his top priority is the interests of the creditors and he solicited their input many times through the proceedings.

I don't think the will of the creditors was a huge part of his ruling though--it was pretty much focused on the technicalities of the bankruptcy code. I'm sure he gave some thought to the likelihood that a ruling in favor of Balsillie would have probably delayed the creditors being paid for at least another year or two while the NHL went through the appeals process.

 

[Hamilton Tigers]

Glendale lawsuit wouldn’t impact Coyotes

If the City of Glendale sues the Goldwater Institute, saying the group has interfered with the sale of the Phoenix Coyotes, it apparently will not affect whether the NHL team stays in Arizona.

“I don’t anticipate a lawsuit brought by Glendale (to the extent one is filed) will ultimately have any impact on how the franchise issue plays out,†NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly wrote in an e-mail Monday, when asked how long the league could wait for a legal battle to be resolved.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news;_ylt=Agd5X7AsacfQdGX_4Yg0PfJ7vLYF?slug=nc-coyotesjets030711

 

[MAROONSRoad]

According to local tv reporter B. Resnick, the GWI has $4million is assets as shown on their public filings. Not sure about level of E & O and D & O insurance coverage. To be sure, the lawsuit is not about making the CoG whole if they prove their claim and get a judgment.

Having said that, assuming the judgment would be for several millions. Without sufficent assets to pay the judgment, the Directors and Officers who are named could be on the hook personally for any judgment in excess of liability limits and GWI assets.

I don't care if you have balls as big as watermellons, looking down the barrel of a lawsuit and facing the chance as a Director that you could lose everything, will cause them to stop and ask some very hard questions of the GWI staffers. I have had the experience in representing clients on D & O claims. Tough talk turns to serious a** covering once the heat of litigation is turned up. Most litigants find the experience one of the most stressful they have ever suffered.

Do you actually think GWI would lose? I really don't think it's a slam dunk (admittedly based on limited info/knowledge). Also, GWI isn't "most litigants." They have an in-house legal department that can make an assessment on the actual risk the suit will pose to the individual directors, etc.

GHOST

 

[Hamilton Tigers]

I don't think the will of the creditors was a huge part of his ruling though--it was pretty much focused on the technicalities of the bankruptcy code. I'm sure he gave some thought to the likelihood that a ruling in favor of Balsillie would have probably delayed the creditors being paid for at least another year or two while the NHL went through the appeals process.

At the risk of digressing, IIRC, an appeal would not have delayed creditors being paid. I seem to recall reading a BK lawyer making such a statement. Not sure though. Anyone else recall that?

 

[Killion]

I'll always be a Leaf fan.... but the city is buzzing. Nice to see Peggers looking forward to something.

Bonus is that it also takes their minds off of the predictions of a Biblical flood this spring where the Red & Assiniboine Rivers' meet hun?. Better get some Wellies their Phil.... And on the other thing?. I share your shame & humiliation. Misery loves company, so thanks for that...

I don't think there is much of a comparison there.GHOST

Different situation entirely of course, however, in the one area where commonalities can be drawn, Im still at a bit of loss to understand how it is that the Phoenix Coyotes "Booster Club" has been so noticeable by its absence throughout this ordeal. Their seems to be a real disconnect that is extremely unusual when not only considering Winnipeg, but so too with what went down in QC & Hartford. Something beyond apathy or a lack of caring which is the easy answer, yet, I feel thats not quite it. Just what "it" might be I have no "earthly idea"....

 

[Bittco]

Not familiar with Arizona law but i can't imagine it would be that easy to just 'go personally after' the GWI directors- id assume there would have to not only be a winning case but a slam dunk to get to that 'piercing the corporate veil' type level

 

[XX]

Different situation entirely of course, however, in the one area where commonalities can be drawn, Im still at a bit of loss to understand how it is that the Phoenix Coyotes "Booster Club" has been so noticeable by its absence throughout this ordeal. Their seems to be a real disconnect that is extremely unusual when not only considering Winnipeg, but so too with what went down in QC & Hartford. Something beyond apathy or a lack of caring which is the easy answer, yet, I feel thats not quite it. Just what "it" might be I have no "earthly idea"....

Coyotes booster club was very active throughout the bankruptcy proceedings and getting the AMULA signed. There isn't a whole lot to rally or cheer about right about now. Like I said before... Winnipeg had a lot of rallies but that didn't exactly do anything for them.

 

[MountainHawk]

Do you actually think GWI would lose? I really don't think it's a slam dunk (admittedly based on limited info/knowledge). Also, GWI isn't "most litigants." They have an in-house legal department that can make an assessment on the actual risk the suit will pose to the individual directors, etc.

GHOST

Let's say the lawsuit is for $500M as speculated.

Now let's say that GWI has $4M in assets, and maybe $25M of D&O.

That other $470M is the responsibility of any of the directors personally named.

It's also likely joint & several responsibility, so if one of the directors is much wealthier than the other, than they will take the brunt of it.

So, what it might come down to is: Is GWI confident enough that the director is willing to put the Diamondbacks at risk if the court rules against them. Are they willing to do that even if there is only a 25% chance of losing? 10%? 5%?

Like I said, this could even be separate from the issue if this is an illegal lease. The court could easily say, 'The lease was illegal, but the letters were tortious interference anyway, because the method was improper.'

That's the only leverage the COG gets out of this, IMO. It will force the directors to decide if it's worth it to risk everything to keep up this fight.

 

[Jesus Christ Horburn]

Goldwater is going to issue a response later today:

Goldwater spokesman Le Templer said the group will be issuing a response later on Monday.

Glendale spokeswoman Julie Frisoni said the city is keeping its options open on the Coyotes front. “The city will continue to look at all options to solidify the Coyote’s long-term future in Glendale,” Frisoni said.

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2011/03/07/coyotes-flap-hinges-on-tortious.html