Phoenix XXV: Anyone in the theatre seen a pale horse?

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Ernie

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Aug 3, 2004
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I have to wonder if Hulsizer himself might not be quietly backing away...

Not only would he have to eat the current year's massive losses, but a $40m deficit would also indicate that it's going to take a LOT longer before he could possibly break even on the team, even with all the subsidies.

Complicating matters for the NHL might be that the Thrashers could also be looking to move their team to Winnipeg. If they were to close a deal with TNSE, the league would be holding the bag with a team in Phoenix that is facing massive losses and no obvious place to move to. Sure, Kansas City or Houston might be options, but at what sale price? Can they get the same $170m that is offered by TNSE?

So time is indeed running out for the league. What they must be looking to do right now is quietly make a deal with TNSE, and then announce it once the season is over. Looks like they will be on the hook for $15m in losses this season. And that miscalculation WILL hang around Bettman's neck.

They should have just worked out a reasonable relocation price with Balsillie that would have paid off all the interested parties, left the league with a healthy profit and dumped back significant revenue sharing to the poorer teams for years to come. Now, even if they end up with a team in Winnipeg, it's going to be a significant revenue sharing suck.
 

Hamilton Tigers

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Mar 20, 2010
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Surely you don't think the same annual losses would occur with stable competent ownership as are occurring when the future of the franchise is being determined in courts and council chambers?

Maybe not the same, but even halving that still leaves it at a whopping $20m.

But, I dunno, I'm always somewhat skeptical when I'm reading such numbers.

Bottom line for me is that there are no potential owners willing to pay "market" price for this NHL franchise, at least not without substantial help from the CoG. And for how many years now?
 

MountainHawk

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Sep 29, 2005
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Salem, MA
Maybe not the same, but even halving that still leaves it at a whopping $20m.

But, I dunno, I'm always somewhat skeptical when I'm reading such numbers.

Bottom line for me is that there are no potential owners willing to pay "market" price for this NHL franchise, at least not without substantial help from the CoG. And for how many years now?
I disagree. There is someone willing to pay market price, the NHL just isn't willing to sell it for that.
 

MountainHawk

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Sep 29, 2005
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I have to wonder if Hulsizer himself might not be quietly backing away...

Not only would he have to eat the current year's massive losses, but a $40m deficit would also indicate that it's going to take a LOT longer before he could possibly break even on the team, even with all the subsidies.

Complicating matters for the NHL might be that the Thrashers could also be looking to move their team to Winnipeg. If they were to close a deal with TNSE, the league would be holding the bag with a team in Phoenix that is facing massive losses and no obvious place to move to. Sure, Kansas City or Houston might be options, but at what sale price? Can they get the same $170m that is offered by TNSE?

So time is indeed running out for the league. What they must be looking to do right now is quietly make a deal with TNSE, and then announce it once the season is over. Looks like they will be on the hook for $15m in losses this season. And that miscalculation WILL hang around Bettman's neck.

They should have just worked out a reasonable relocation price with Balsillie that would have paid off all the interested parties, left the league with a healthy profit and dumped back significant revenue sharing to the poorer teams for years to come. Now, even if they end up with a team in Winnipeg, it's going to be a significant revenue sharing suck.
Atlanta isn't anywhere close to moving the team to Winnipeg. The NHL won't even entertain the option of relocation unless the avenues of local ownership are explored first, and by all accounts not from biased Canadian media, there are at least a couple of interested local parties. Whether it goes anywhere remains to be seen.
 

Retail1LO*

Guest
I have to wonder if Hulsizer himself might not be quietly backing away...

Not only would he have to eat the current year's massive losses, but a $40m deficit would also indicate that it's going to take a LOT longer before he could possibly break even on the team, even with all the subsidies.

Complicating matters for the NHL might be that the Thrashers could also be looking to move their team to Winnipeg. If they were to close a deal with TNSE, the league would be holding the bag with a team in Phoenix that is facing massive losses and no obvious place to move to. Sure, Kansas City or Houston might be options, but at what sale price? Can they get the same $170m that is offered by TNSE?

So time is indeed running out for the league. What they must be looking to do right now is quietly make a deal with TNSE, and then announce it once the season is over. Looks like they will be on the hook for $15m in losses this season. And that miscalculation WILL hang around Bettman's neck.

They should have just worked out a reasonable relocation price with Balsillie that would have paid off all the interested parties, left the league with a healthy profit and dumped back significant revenue sharing to the poorer teams for years to come. Now, even if they end up with a team in Winnipeg, it's going to be a significant revenue sharing suck.

That's a great post. With Winnipeg seeming to be the only city currently looking for a team, and capable of icing one in short order...combined with Atlanta's woes...ONE of these teams is going to end up in Canada sooner or later, you'd have to think. That being said, I think it would be funny as sin (or ironic, at least) if the league ended up keeping this team in the desert only to watch the Thrashers move to Winnipeg, leaving the Coyotes stuck in the desert with only Jim Balsille and a move to Hamilton as an option. I know others wouldn't find it amusing, but seriously, I could very well die laughing from such a scenario.
 

Whileee

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May 29, 2010
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The Phoenix Coyotes and Jobing.com Arena have lost $40 million this season, according to team buyer Matthew Hulsizer, although team officials say a typical end-of-season bounce should lessen that.

Team officials also point to positive signs in ticket sales. But as it stands, the losses have pushed up Hulsizer's purchase price to $210 million. The National Hockey League, owner of the orphan team, intends to lose no money on the team sale.

The NHL tacked on team and arena losses to the $140 million purchase price, which is what the league paid to take the team out of bankruptcy in late 2009. The team lost about $30 million last season.



Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarep...price-rises-make-up-losses.html#ixzz1FwUdInT9

Wow! Is there`s a potential owner out there that can overcome such annual losses

This might explain why Hulsizer would be reluctant to give any ground on the lease negotiations. Also, since this is a "buyer's market", hard to see how the CoG has the upper hand in any negotiations.
 

cbcwpg

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May 18, 2010
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Comment from Daly today:

“I don’t anticipate a lawsuit brought by Glendale (to the extent one is filed) will ultimately have any impact on how the franchise issue plays out,” NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly wrote in an e-mail Monday, when asked how long the league could wait for a legal battle to be resolved.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news?slug=nc-coyotesjets030711

Could this be because the NHL has already decided what they are going to do and on what date they are going to do it, and don't care how long a lawsuit ends up in court?
 

y2kcanucks

Le Sex God
Aug 3, 2006
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Surrey, BC
Surely you don't think the same annual losses would occur with stable competent ownership as are occurring when the future of the franchise is being determined in courts and council chambers?

The Phoenix Coyotes currently sit 6th place in the West, after finishing 4th in the West last year, yet their attendance is 11,626 this year, which is down from the dead last ranking of 11,989 they averaged last year. The team is having success on the ice, yet fans are not showing up. Last year, Phoenix also had an average ticket price of $37.45 which ranked 27th in the league. Despite cheap ticket prices and a quality team on the ice, fans still aren't showing up.

One would think that if the team really meant something to the fans that they would go to the arena, support the team, which would generate revenue dollars and make their team much more attractive for a prospective owner to purchase them and keep them in Glendale. That isn't happening.
 

crazed323

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Mar 6, 2011
238
0
Winnipeg
I have to wonder if Hulsizer himself might not be quietly backing away...

Not only would he have to eat the current year's massive losses, but a $40m deficit would also indicate that it's going to take a LOT longer before he could possibly break even on the team, even with all the subsidies.

Complicating matters for the NHL might be that the Thrashers could also be looking to move their team to Winnipeg. If they were to close a deal with TNSE, the league would be holding the bag with a team in Phoenix that is facing massive losses and no obvious place to move to. Sure, Kansas City or Houston might be options, but at what sale price? Can they get the same $170m that is offered by TNSE?

So time is indeed running out for the league. What they must be looking to do right now is quietly make a deal with TNSE, and then announce it once the season is over. Looks like they will be on the hook for $15m in losses this season. And that miscalculation WILL hang around Bettman's neck.

They should have just worked out a reasonable relocation price with Balsillie that would have paid off all the interested parties, left the league with a healthy profit and dumped back significant revenue sharing to the poorer teams for years to come. Now, even if they end up with a team in Winnipeg, it's going to be a significant revenue sharing suck.

The circumstances are alot different now then they were in the past when it comes to just how much money a team in Winnipeg could generate. I really don't see a team in Winnipeg being a "revenue sharing suck". Is it possible at least that they could break even or even turn a marginal profit?
 

Hamilton Tigers

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Mar 20, 2010
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Hamilton
I disagree. There is someone willing to pay market price, the NHL just isn't willing to sell it for that.

Forgive me, but I've been absent from this topic for quite a while, but what is the market price you refer to, and who is that willing "someone"?

Here are some interesting numbers form a CBC report:

The NHL's done several detailed analyses of the market. (I'm aware of two, apparently, there were more.) According to a couple of sources, the league estimates revenues of approximately $70 million per season. That would be lowest among Canadian teams.

Ask several financial wizards if you can survive in the NHL with $70 million (plus any additional monies from a very successful MTS Centre), and many of the answers are negative. Luckily for Winnipeg, the only ones that matter belong to the prospective owners, Mark Chipman and the Thomson family.

"Anyone who thinks they are committing $170 million to this without believing they can make it work is wrong. They know what they're doing," says one Manitoba supporter. (That figure is the purchase price for the Winnipeg group.)

The good news is that $70 million in revenues would double Phoenix's totals and be approximately $20 million more than Atlanta's. And, even though the Jets would be a revenue-sharing team, other owners would find that much more palatable than funding losses.


http://www.cbc.ca/sports/blogs/elli...ncially-strapped-clubs-only-clear-option.html
 

Jesus Christ Horburn

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Aug 22, 2008
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Comments from Bill Daly:

“I don’t anticipate a lawsuit brought by Glendale (to the extent one is filed) will ultimately have any impact on how the franchise issue plays out,” NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly wrote in an e-mail Monday, when asked how long the league could wait for a legal battle to be resolved.

“Time is a factor, but no firm and hard deadlines have been established at this point,” Daly wrote, echoing what NHL commissioner Gary Bettman has been saying for weeks.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news?slug=nc-coyotesjets030711
 

aparch

Registered User
Apr 3, 2008
442
10
Surely you don't think the same annual losses would occur with stable competent ownership as are occurring when the future of the franchise is being determined in courts and council chambers?

I forget where the article was located at, but prior to winning the Stanley Cup in 2008, the Illitch family stated that the Wings were a perennial financial loser until the final weeks of the season (that was their break even point).

And the Chicago Blackhawks released their report last summer saying that even by winning the Stanley Cup and hosting as many games as they did, they were STILL in the red.



Deep pockets only gets you so far. You need an owner who is adding the team to his corporate portfolio because he loves the sport and can afford to underwrite the losses with other gains.

(Ie: Illitch's with Little Ceasers, Wirtz's with the beverage distributorship, Pegula's with the oil distributorship).
 

MountainHawk

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Sep 29, 2005
12,771
0
Salem, MA
Forgive me, but I've been absent from this topic for quite a while, but what is the market price you refer to, and who is that willing "someone"?

Here are some interesting numbers form a CBC report:

The NHL's done several detailed analyses of the market. (I'm aware of two, apparently, there were more.) According to a couple of sources, the league estimates revenues of approximately $70 million per season. That would be lowest among Canadian teams.

Ask several financial wizards if you can survive in the NHL with $70 million (plus any additional monies from a very successful MTS Centre), and many of the answers are negative. Luckily for Winnipeg, the only ones that matter belong to the prospective owners, Mark Chipman and the Thomson family.

"Anyone who thinks they are committing $170 million to this without believing they can make it work is wrong. They know what they're doing," says one Manitoba supporter. (That figure is the purchase price for the Winnipeg group.)

The good news is that $70 million in revenues would double Phoenix's totals and be approximately $20 million more than Atlanta's. And, even though the Jets would be a revenue-sharing team, other owners would find that much more palatable than funding losses.


http://www.cbc.ca/sports/blogs/elli...ncially-strapped-clubs-only-clear-option.html
Market price, at least to me, is the value that Hulsizer is willing to spend to acquire the team. Looks to be in the $110M range, if you back out the $100M or so "subsidy"/sale of assets.

What is the fair value of the team? Dunno. But market price is necessarily determined by the market.
 

y2kcanucks

Le Sex God
Aug 3, 2006
71,229
10,319
Surrey, BC
Forgive me, but I've been absent from this topic for quite a while, but what is the market price you refer to, and who is that willing "someone"?

Here are some interesting numbers form a CBC report:

The NHL's done several detailed analyses of the market. (I'm aware of two, apparently, there were more.) According to a couple of sources, the league estimates revenues of approximately $70 million per season. That would be lowest among Canadian teams.

Ask several financial wizards if you can survive in the NHL with $70 million (plus any additional monies from a very successful MTS Centre), and many of the answers are negative. Luckily for Winnipeg, the only ones that matter belong to the prospective owners, Mark Chipman and the Thomson family.

"Anyone who thinks they are committing $170 million to this without believing they can make it work is wrong. They know what they're doing," says one Manitoba supporter. (That figure is the purchase price for the Winnipeg group.)

The good news is that $70 million in revenues would double Phoenix's totals and be approximately $20 million more than Atlanta's. And, even though the Jets would be a revenue-sharing team, other owners would find that much more palatable than funding losses.


http://www.cbc.ca/sports/blogs/elli...ncially-strapped-clubs-only-clear-option.html

Makes perfect sense. I have no problems with revenue sharing to an extent. If the team is being well supported and is still in the red despite exhausting all efforts to increase revenues in their local market, then they should be eligible for revenue sharing. If fans aren't supporting the team and attendance is well below 90% capacity, then I don't see why that team should be eligible for revenue sharing. Why should fans from other markets support a team that isn't receiving support in its own market?
 

NHLfan4life

Who is PKP???
Nov 22, 2010
688
0
Glendale
I really have to question why there hasn't been much of a grass roots effort to save the coyotes. Other than a couple rallies with a few hundred people (exagerated) and couple of love in's at city council meetings. I have not really seen the kind of save the coyotes campaigns as we seen when winnipeg lost their team. I believe the general public raised $6 million of there monies towards the price to keep the team in Winnipeg. With the short falls of the bond sale a little cash from the public could go along way to showing potential investors it's a sound investment.

It's there just kind of not centralized. I hear a lot about it but everyone knows how it turned out in WPG. From talking to fellow Glendale citizens, they feel that they have no power as to what the outcome is. Now that it's reached this level of legality and lawyers...the layers just keep distancing people from the situation. They are alienating the fanbase even further than the management has over the years.
I think that's my best answer for your question. Here in Glendale, things are still upbeat but I can feel a collective "Oh brother" in response to the current situation.

SSDD.
 

cbcwpg

Registered User
May 18, 2010
20,100
20,376
Between the Pipes
The circumstances are alot different now then they were in the past when it comes to just how much money a team in Winnipeg could generate. I really don't see a team in Winnipeg being a "revenue sharing suck". Is it possible at least that they could break even or even turn a marginal profit?

CBC.ca reported that the NHL has done several detailed analyses of the Winnipeg market, and according to a couple of sources, the league estimates revenues of about $70 million per season. That would be double the revenue generated by the Coyotes and about $20 million more than the revenue generated by the Atlanta Thrashers, another franchise with ownership issues that could move to Winnipeg. But it would still be the lowest among Canadian teams.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news?slug=nc-coyotesjets030711
 

Dado

Guest
Comments from Bill Daly:

You know...instead of asking him if there is a deadline, they would be better off asking if the team would consider still owning the team on Date X. Start Date X at September 1, and every interview, back it up two weeks until he starts equivocating.
 

NHLfan4life

Who is PKP???
Nov 22, 2010
688
0
Glendale
The Phoenix Coyotes currently sit 6th place in the West, after finishing 4th in the West last year, yet their attendance is 11,626 this year, which is down from the dead last ranking of 11,989 they averaged last year. The team is having success on the ice, yet fans are not showing up. Last year, Phoenix also had an average ticket price of $37.45 which ranked 27th in the league. Despite cheap ticket prices and a quality team on the ice, fans still aren't showing up.

One would think that if the team really meant something to the fans that they would go to the arena, support the team, which would generate revenue dollars and make their team much more attractive for a prospective owner to purchase them and keep them in Glendale. That isn't happening.

:deadhorse

If you were here in Glendale you would understand. I'm not sure how long you have been following this story but this has been debated at least 100,000 times.
 

y2kcanucks

Le Sex God
Aug 3, 2006
71,229
10,319
Surrey, BC
:deadhorse

If you were here in Glendale you would understand. I'm not sure how long you have been following this story but this has been debated at least 100,000 times.

The excuse of unstable ownership is just an excuse. If fans really wanted to keep the team, they'd make a movement to make the team an attractive investment.
 

Retail1LO*

Guest
Market price, at least to me, is the value that Hulsizer is willing to spend to acquire the team. Looks to be in the $110M range, if you back out the $100M or so "subsidy"/sale of assets.

What is the fair value of the team? Dunno. But market price is necessarily determined by the market.

We know it's worth more than that. Look at what Balsille was willing to pay. I know they told him to go fly a kite, but they know someone was willing to pay no small mint for the franchise.

I still think it was an incredible mistake to dismiss him like that. None of this mess would even be upon the league at this point.
 

Ernie

Registered User
Aug 3, 2004
12,759
2,157
Atlanta isn't anywhere close to moving the team to Winnipeg. The NHL won't even entertain the option of relocation unless the avenues of local ownership are explored first, and by all accounts not from biased Canadian media, there are at least a couple of interested local parties. Whether it goes anywhere remains to be seen.

Well, what happens if Atlanta ownership does make a deal with TNSE?

What a messy conflict of interest. If the league vetos the move and then moves the Coyotes to Winnipeg, I see a nasty lawsuit.

TNSE has a $170m offer on the table that appears to have been cleared by the league. Other owners that want to get out without taking additional losses must be pretty tempted by it.

The cleanest way for the league to get out of this mess is to take that money, now.
 

MountainHawk

Registered User
Sep 29, 2005
12,771
0
Salem, MA
We know it's worth more than that. Look at what Balsille was willing to pay. I know they told him to go fly a kite, but they know someone was willing to pay no small mint for the franchise.

I still think it was an incredible mistake to dismiss him like that. None of this mess would even be upon the league at this point.
Balsillie wasn't paying for a Phoenix franchise, he was paying for a Southern Ontario franchise, which is worth 3 or 4 times what Balsillie's offer was.
 
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