Phoenix LIV:E and Let Die

[madhi19]

GS, My point was a bit different -- that there are two advantages to having a TV deal. First, it is a source of additional revenue; second, an owner can arrange the TV and advertising rights so that the NHL team looks like it is receiving less revenue than it actually is. It allows the owner to play a shell game with the money coming in.

And you think owning the network the team will be on won't make that even easier for PKP.

 

[GuelphStormer]

GS, My point was a bit different -- that there are two advantages to having a TV deal. First, it is a source of additional revenue; second, an owner can arrange the TV and advertising rights so that the NHL team looks like it is receiving less revenue than it actually is. It allows the owner to play a shell game with the money coming in.

i see. ok. sorry, i thot you were suggesting he would actually lose money on the team.

yes, im sure most nhl owners play that game a bit. belgers will likely play the same game when they take over mlse.

 

[JetsFanForever]

It worth whatever the market will bear. Also the TV angle should not be ignored. The NHL know the team is worth more to PKP than most other potential owner who don't also own a sports network.


I agree the lawsuit is a sideshow the main event is happening in Vegas.

I agree with all of your points above.

However, my initial point was that we can't just assume that the price will include a 60 mm relo fee, just because there was one for the TNSE move.

 

[knorthern knight]

GS, My point was a bit different -- that there are two advantages to having a TV deal. First, it is a source of additional revenue; second, an owner can arrange the TV and advertising rights so that the NHL team looks like it is receiving less revenue than it actually is. It allows the owner to play a shell game with the money coming in.

There is a clause in the CBA about a neutral 3rd-party arbiter to vet this type of situation. This is designed to protect the players.

 

[GuelphStormer]

... my initial point was that we can't just assume that the price will include a 60 mm relo fee, just because there was one for the TNSE move.

i agree ... but it's such a nice round number ... even numerically-challenged people like hocking would be able to understand it

does anyone have quick memory of the various other relo fees that have been paid/charged?

btw, im still waiting for someone to spend 4 weeks of their time coming up with a FAQ for this whole thing ...

 

[GreatCanadian]

maybe I missed something ... how would PKP lose money if he were to purchase the team now and operate it out of the old arena for a while? would his hockey gate revenues not immediately exceed his hockey team and operation expenses? even in an older, smaller building for now.

The only revenue they don't have with the old building, is that Colisee Pepsi still lacks any corporate suites (I think). So that is a few million bucks they can't collect. Something in the region of 7-9 million a year I would think?

Having 18,000 seats would help, but they only have 15,100 or so. So that makes revenue a little more limited, even at Winnipeg-level prices.

 

[CasualFan]

CF, I am hoping you can explain to me how folding the team would benefit the league. Because they could make more by expanding to QC rather than relocating? Well then why wouldn't QC be desperate to acquire the franchise now, while it has an inflated asking price, but is still cheaper than an expansion club, and should be able to generate more money by already being a competitive on ice product?

This is all my speculation. It's my thoughts on what is occurring in Glendale and with the NHL. It is not presented as anything other than my interpretation of events.

Folding the team doesn't benefit the league. But it's potentially less harmful than operating it in Glendale without a subsidy. The league already contemplated folding the franchise if there was no DIP financing during the BK process. I realize that I analyze the available information differently than others. I don't think that Quebecor is at all desperate to acquire a franchise now. I think the risk resides with the NHL. How many franchises are struggling? How many current owners would sell to PKP in two years? I think this is worst time for Quebec to acquire a franchise because they have limited options on team (I believe the options will increase in the future-not with expansion, with existing teams), there is no CBA (which means the business model has uncertainty), and the arena isn't built yet (and PKP pays more with an NHL franchise).

Speculation like this is a fools errand but it is amusing. This is for entertainment purposes only.

 

[GuelphStormer]

The only revenue they don't have with the old building, is that Colisee Pepsi still lacks any corporate suites (I think). So that is a few million bucks they can't collect. Something in the region of 7-9 million a year I would think?

thanks. ok, so if we assumed mostly sold out nites, even at league average, would that still not keep him in the black? or, has there always been an assumption that his transitional time in the colisee wouldn't make money. perhaps he could get the city to agree to subsidize his losses ...

 

[powerstuck]

The only revenue they don't have with the old building, is that Colisee Pepsi still lacks any corporate suites (I think). So that is a few million bucks they can't collect. Something in the region of 7-9 million a year I would think?

Having 18,000 seats would help, but they only have 15,100 or so. So that makes revenue a little more limited, even at Winnipeg-level prices.

15300 places some have obstructed view (maybe like 200 overall).

There is a few corporate suites, but they are old, small and in numbers of about 10-15.

 

[powerstuck]

This is all my speculation. It's my thoughts on what is occurring in Glendale and with the NHL. It is not presented as anything other than my interpretation of events.

Folding the team doesn't benefit the league. But it's potentially less harmful than operating it in Glendale without a subsidy. The league already contemplated folding the franchise if there was no DIP financing during the BK process. I realize that I analyze the available information differently than others. I don't think that Quebecor is at all desperate to acquire a franchise now. I think the risk resides with the NHL. How many franchises are struggling? How many current owners would sell to PKP in two years? I think this is worst time for Quebec to acquire a franchise because they have limited options on team (I believe the options will increase in the future-not with expansion, with existing teams), there is no CBA (which means the business model has uncertainty), and the arena isn't built yet (and PKP pays more with an NHL franchise).

Speculation like this is a fools errand but it is amusing. This is for entertainment purposes only.

I honestly think you missed one very important point CF. Currently PKP is the only buyer looking for a team and who has a suitable temporary arena and a new one incoming.

By 2015, the time Quebec arena will be done, there will be more buyers. There might be more teams up for sale, but there will definitely be more buyers. And as far as I am concerned, Ontario has 5x more money than PKP and the rest of the Quebec. Potentially, there is only 2 entities rich enough to purchase a sports franchise, Quebecor and Power Corp. I could add Rene Angelil, but a) He lives in Vegas now and b) He's already a major business partner of PKP.

 

[rt]

This is all my speculation. It's my thoughts on what is occurring in Glendale and with the NHL. It is not presented as anything other than my interpretation of events.

Folding the team doesn't benefit the league. But it's potentially less harmful than operating it in Glendale without a subsidy. The league already contemplated folding the franchise if there was no DIP financing during the BK process. I realize that I analyze the available information differently than others. I don't think that Quebecor is at all desperate to acquire a franchise now. I think the risk resides with the NHL. How many franchises are struggling? How many current owners would sell to PKP in two years? I think this is worst time for Quebec to acquire a franchise because they have limited options on team (I believe the options will increase in the future-not with expansion, with existing teams), there is no CBA (which means the business model has uncertainty), and the arena isn't built yet (and PKP pays more with an NHL franchise).

Speculation like this is a fools errand but it is amusing. This is for entertainment purposes only.

Okay, I can see how folding would better than footing the bill for another year sans subsidy.

What I'm still not clear on is how folding is better than selling for relocation to Quebec. Better for the league, I mean.

And i do realize this is just your own speculation. That's actually what I'm looking for.

 

[madhi19]

15300 places some have obstructed view (maybe like 200 overall).

There is a few corporate suites, but they are old, small and in numbers of about 10-15.

The smart move would be to use the rarity to hold an auction on the Corporate Suites. With the understanding that if you want a Corporate Suite in the New Colisé owning one in the Old Colisé will put you on top of the list.

 

[GreatCanadian]

If PKP and Co. runs the team, ovbiously in the big picture of all his properties/acquisitions/companies, he will be just fine, but it could be that the team financials itself (if isolated) could end up slightly in the red during the first few years... but it seems quite clear that any losses would be vastly outweighed by future profits once the new building opens, so it might not worry him too much.

Hell, if owners in Nashville, SJ or Florida can eat up millions in losses semi-permanently, PKP's situation will look just fantastic, really!

 

[CasualFan]

Okay, I can see how folding would better than footing the bill for another year sans subsidy.

What I'm still not clear on is how folding is better than selling for relocation to Quebec. Better for the league, I mean.

And i do realize this is just your own speculation. That's actually what I'm looking for.

I don't think it makes sense for PKP to buy right now. If there is no buyer, the league cannot sell for relocation even if it would be better for the league.

 

[madhi19]

I don't think it makes sense for PKP to buy right now. If there is no buyer, the league cannot sell for relocation even if it would be better for the league.

You been saying that for the last two pages of post but I have yet to read why it a bad idea for PKP not to close now while he's the only game in town.

 

[GuelphStormer]

I don't think it makes sense for PKP to buy right now. If there is no buyer, the league cannot sell for relocation even if it would be better for the league.

sorry, i guess im low on coffee right now, can you please explain?

what are the current conditions that make you think it makes no sense for PKP to purchase now? and how would those conditions (need to) change in order for it to make sense for him to purchase?

 

[Yukon Joe]

i agree ... but it's such a nice round number ... even numerically-challenged people like hocking would be able to understand it

does anyone have quick memory of the various other relo fees that have been paid/charged?

btw, im still waiting for someone to spend 4 weeks of their time coming up with a FAQ for this whole thing ...

IIRC the relocation fee for Atlanta to Winnipeg was the first time such a fee had been imposed, at least by the NHL. The last relocations, which were 10+ years ago, did not charge a relocation fee.

 

[sipowicz]

This is all my speculation. It's my thoughts on what is occurring in Glendale and with the NHL. It is not presented as anything other than my interpretation of events.

Folding the team doesn't benefit the league. But it's potentially less harmful than operating it in Glendale without a subsidy. The league already contemplated folding the franchise if there was no DIP financing during the BK process. I realize that I analyze the available information differently than others. I don't think that Quebecor is at all desperate to acquire a franchise now. I think the risk resides with the NHL. How many franchises are struggling? How many current owners would sell to PKP in two years? I think this is worst time for Quebec to acquire a franchise because they have limited options on team (I believe the options will increase in the future-not with expansion, with existing teams), there is no CBA (which means the business model has uncertainty), and the arena isn't built yet (and PKP pays more with an NHL franchise).

Speculation like this is a fools errand but it is amusing. This is for entertainment purposes only.

Think the NHL could threaten to fold the team as a bargaining ploy (real or not) with the NHLPA? Maybe the Coyotes are being kept in limbo for that very reason. Seems to me the MLB was pretty high on contraction a decade ago, can't recall how the baseball players union took that.

 

[objectiveposter]

it wouldnt surprise me if Bettman told PKP he wants 170 + 60 relocation for the team so 230 total.
PKP argues Winnipeg only paid 170 total so why should he pay 230?
Bettman counter argues that the overwhelming success in Winnipeg has driven up its franchise value and therefor the new market value for a similar hockey city such as Quebec is now higher (combined with a new cba which will see HRR drop from 57 to 50)

A fair compromise is probably 200 million... I dont think PKP will get a team for cheaper than that... whether its the coyotes or an expansion team.

 

[Acesolid]

15300 places some have obstructed view (maybe like 200 overall).

There is a few corporate suites, but they are old, small and in numbers of about 10-15.

No, there are 41 ''salons corporatifs'' (AKA corporate suites) in the arena, situated at the two extremes of the ice. And almost all seats are decent. Unlike the old Winnipeg arena. (see the plan of the Colisée Pepsi, the corporate suites are in blue)

 

[Nordskull]

Can anybody confirm any PHX Coyotes pre season games are scheduled for next fall? Seems a dozen pre season calendars have been posted and no games involving PHX would have been scheduled.

Asking, not affirming.

 

[madhi19]

IIRC the relocation fee for Atlanta to Winnipeg was the first time such a fee had been imposed, at least by the NHL. The last relocations, which were 10+ years ago, did not charge a relocation fee.

It actually a consequence of the Yotes bankruptcy. While they never charged it before now that the NHL gave a judge a number they feel entitled to charge at least that number.

 

[RandR]

CF, I am hoping you can explain to me how folding the team would benefit the league. Because they could make more by expanding to QC rather than relocating? Well then why wouldn't QC be desperate to acquire the franchise now, while it has an inflated asking price, but is still cheaper than an expansion club, and should be able to generate more money by already being a competitive on ice product?

That is my reasoning.

And QC may not (and probably does not) know what the league's plans are in regards to future expansion. It is quite possible that Bettman has simply told PKP that the league is not interested in relocating to QC right now; he doesn't have to give to PKP any reasons beyond that.

 

[sipowicz]

Can anybody confirm any PHX Coyotes pre season games are scheduled for next fall? Seems a dozen pre season calendars have been posted and no games involving PHX would have been scheduled.

Asking, not affirming.

Last season the Coyotes only played 1 or 2 pre season games at home, the NHL knew no one would attend the games in Glendale.

PS the first regular season game in Glendale drew a crowd of only 6300 (announced)

 

[yotesreign]

From a business standpoint I can't see how Quebecor would pass on the opportunity to purchase a team asap. Teams aren't available for relocation every year, it's not like they can say no worries we'll wait for the next one.

Has there been any declaration by any NHL owner this year that they want to relocate this year? Or just numerous delcarations by fans that they want a team to relocate this year?

Too bad this isn't Nascar, eh? They do a lot of fan surveys and often bend to the will of the squeaky (example: the rules changes to break up tandem racing at Talladega and Daytona).