Phoenix LIV:E and Let Die

Hank Chinaski · Jun 12, 2012

Continue here. Link to last thread.

Kudos to Material Defender for the thread title.

Jesus Christ Horburn · Jun 12, 2012

Damn, I was already starting up LIV: in' On Glendale's Prayer :laugh:

From the last thread:

Lisa Halverstadt ‏@LisaHalverstadt
Update from @GoldwaterInst spokeswoman: Still no time set for hearing on #Coyotes vote.

Confucius · Jun 12, 2012

Jamieson has the option to buy the arena, all Glendale's arena problems will then be solved.

No Fun Shogun · Jun 12, 2012

Holy moly.... these topics are just chugging along now....

cbcwpg · Jun 12, 2012

Just observations.

NHL Loan

Why would the NHL do this?? To loan Jamison say $100M to buy the team is beyond stupid IMO. Sure the team stays and Bettman gets to tell the world ( See it's a good market ), but come on... If Jamison is that short of investors and there isn't a bank on earth that will lend him the money, what is that really saying about what people think about the financial viability of the market? Simple, it's not worth the sand it was built on. And really, if Bettman is so convinced it will work, why doesn't he retire from his $6M per year job and buy the team himself? Prove us all wrong by putting your own money into the fire.

Jamison buying the arena

NEVER gonna happen IMO. Why? Jamison would have to be stupider than the NHL loaning him money. Even if Jamison buys the arena for $0.05 on the dollar, he has to give up the Arena Management Fund. People.... it is not an AMF, it is a SUBSIDY, which Jamison will need to finance the losses. Why would anyone want to give up free money and take on a bigger financial burden by owning the arena? It is not in his best interest to buy the arena. So why is it in the lease agreement. To quite down all those opposed to the deal. They can say " see it's not really $15M for 20 years, it's only for 5 years until he buys the arena ".

barneyg · Jun 12, 2012

yotesreign said:
Why couldn't they find funding back then? Was it the economy?

The best way to put it is that governments were against providing public funds for a new arena, and a 100% privately-financed arena wouldn't have been viable. I can't find a poll from that time but my recollection is that a majority of people approved the governments' stance. In 1995 the NHL was still in the midst of the salary explosion, the Canadian dollar was going down, and more locally, Quebec City had just lived through the Lindros saga, which did a lot to stigmatize pro hockey players as "money-grubbing crybabies we shouldn't be helping".

A combination of changes on all those fronts and of "you don't know what you got until it's gone" means the very popular QC mayor was elected on a new arena platform and a large majority of QC residents are ready to pay for the arena through their property taxes.

barneyg · Jun 12, 2012

cbcwpg said:
NEVER gonna happen IMO. Why? Jamison would have to be stupider than the NHL loaning him money. Even if Jamison buys the arena for $0.05 on the dollar, he has to give up the Arena Management Fund. People.... it is not an AMF, it is a SUBSIDY, which Jamison will need to finance the losses. Why would anyone want to give up free money and take on a bigger financial burden by owning the arena? It is not in his best interest to buy the arena. So why is it in the lease agreement. To quite down all those opposed to the deal. They can say " see it's not really $15M for 20 years, it's only for 5 years until he buys the arena ".

Dumb people are everywhere but one would need to be pretty darn stupid to be swayed by an option to buy the arena at its fair market value, which is what's in the agreement.

Chairman Maouth · Jun 12, 2012

HF will not be used to further the agenda of an off-site petition.

Ludwig Fell Down · Jun 12, 2012

cbcwpg said:
Just observations.

NHL Loan

Why would the NHL do this?? To loan Jamison say $100M to buy the team is beyond stupid IMO. Sure the team stays and Bettman gets to tell the world ( See it's a good market ), but come on... If Jamison is that short of investors and there isn't a bank on earth that will lend him the money, what is that really saying about what people think about the financial viability of the market? Simple, it's not worth the sand it was built on. And really, if Bettman is so convinced it will work, why doesn't he retire from his $6M per year job and buy the team himself? Prove us all wrong by putting your own money into the fire.

.

Ding ding ding. I remember being part of a disucssion about XXIV threads ago, about the CoG financing the MH deal through parking rights. It violates a fundamental principle of business -- never sell your business on credit. If the buyer or the business plan is not credit-worthy, the seller should run away if they are financing the transaction.

I think the end game is upon us. GWI scared off Jamison's "investors," who were moments away from sigining off on the dotted line. The deal falls apart, NHL gets made whole by PKP, Jamison is a hero to the BoG for being the guy, GWI scores a win without spending significant funds on litigation, and Bettman sends a gift basket to GWI for getting him out of this mess somewhat gracefully.

Everyone wins. Except for the citizens of Glendale and Coyotes fans, of course.

Dado · Jun 12, 2012

cbcwpg said:
Why would the NHL do this?? To loan Jamison say $100M to buy the team is beyond stupid IMO.

It would, effectively, be participation in future equity upside from either a successful turnaround or eventual relocation.

Not the dumbest move, frankly, assuming its structured so the league has the upper(hand) tranche...which I'm pretty sure Bettman would be smart enough to do...

Shrimper · Jun 12, 2012

Been away for a while can anyone keep me up to date on the latest news? I read something about a loan being given?

CBCnutcase · Jun 12, 2012

WJG said:
Damn, I was already starting up LIV: in' On Glendale's Prayer

Good one, I like it. The title of this thread is also good. I was thinking something along LIV----Tyler. :yo:

Dado · Jun 12, 2012

Ludwig Fell Down said:
It violates a fundamental principle of business -- never sell your business on credit. If the buyer or the business plan is not credit-worthy, the seller should run away if they are financing the transaction.

There are very successful models that do the exact opposite. Credit card companies, as but one example, make far more money off of bad-credit people than good-credit people. Owner-financed real estate is a classic - flip the same lot to one deadbeat after another, collecting a new "down payment" every six months.

And that's not even touching the technically-illegal zillion dollar empires built on the backs of heroin users who can't afford a pot to piss in, yet manage to fund several Afghani warlords.

Etc etc etc.

Jesus Christ Horburn · Jun 12, 2012

Shrimper said:
Been away for a while can anyone keep me up to date on the latest news? I read something about a loan being given?

If I understand correctly:

Jamison and Glendale both have a deadline of "late June" to complete the sale.

For Glendale's part, they have voted and approved a controversial lease to Jamison that will pay him 325 million over 20 years. Goldwater Institute wants to void Glendale's vote because they did not release the details of the lease to the public until less than 24 hours before the vote. Some exhibits have still yet to be released.

For Jamison's part, he needs to raise approximately 170 million to purchase the team. No one knows how much he has raised or who his investors are, but recent speculation suggests he has only raised about 50 million and will need to borrow the rest, possibly from the NHL.

kdb209 · Jun 12, 2012

CoG projections on the economic effects to Glendale, Phoenix, the entire South West, and civilization as we know it, if the 'Yotes left - based on a T.L. Hocking report: (audio)

Come and ride the road that links the cities of the sun:
It's the Tucumcari-Albuquerque-Flagstaff-Phoenix Run.

Bad times came and bad times went and left us here alive;
Desert folks have histories of learning to survive.
The troubles took the cities, and the rich farmlands beside,
But they skipped our land as barren waste, so here we all abide.

We have no oil worth digging for, just wide jojoba plains.
The sun is like a hammer here, and twice a year it rains.
But we know where the waters hide, and where the stock can feed
So we survived and prospered while the old world died of greed.

The pack trains and the wagons bring the goods down to the road.
We dicker over prices, then we convoy up and load.
Now, some of us like steam wheels, and some drive alcohol,
But when it comes to weaponry, we've no arguments at all.

We drive out of the city, and the desert floor unrolls.
We meet the road repair crew, and we pay them out their tolls.
We swap the news and gossip through the CB on our way,
And that's the only taxes that we're ever gonna pay.

Bless the cool of nighttime, though it makes the driving slow,
The heat scopes warn of trouble long before the gangs can show.
A couple rounds of rockets makes the bandits go away,
And that's the last of trouble till the coming of the day.

The sun comes up in banners and the heat comes down like lead.
Our heatscopes now are useless, and there's trouble up ahead...
Some gang has set a roadtrap; do we fight or do we pay?
Hell, fire the big recoilless -- we ain't payin' tax today!

We come into Albuquerque with our armor full of holes.
But we brought all our cargo safe, and the market street unrolls.
We'll take our pay in car repairs, more ammo, and more shells,
For the next stretch goes to Flagstaff, and that's a dozen hells!

So now we've got a passenger -- some kind of preacher man.
Who sneers at our crude violence, and boasts about his plan
To bring back laws and government, and all that whole shebang.
Oh, put him on the tail-gun quick; here comes another gang!

We stagger into Flagstaff late, wounded, scarred, and racked.
We've fought three gangs since morning, but our cargo's still intact.
Our passenger is leaving now; I guess he's realized
That freedom's wild and wooly; we don't want it civilized.

So pour the drinks, you merchants, for the heroes of the road.
We wouldn't swap our rolling lives for all the goods we've towed.
So patch our wounds and armor, and make our ammo true....
For the next stretch goes to Phoenix, and that's a mother, too!

MNNumbers · Jun 12, 2012

Ludwig Fell Down said:
Everyone wins. Except for the citizens of Glendale and Coyotes fans, of course.

Actually, the citizens of Glendale win, too. Coyote fans lose, although it's not their fault. And, 4 members of the city council of Glendale lose, because their hearts are broken when the team leaves.

But, the citizens win, because they won't have to pay for the subsidy.

cbcwpg · Jun 12, 2012

Dado said:
It would, effectively, be participation in future equity upside from either a successful turnaround or eventual relocation.

Not the dumbest move, frankly, assuming its structured so the league has the upper(hand) tranche...which I'm pretty sure Bettman would be smart enough to do...

If the loan is structured in such a way as the NHL has the upper hand, then would Jamison lose any wiggle room he might have to make money? Unless it is an interest free, pay us back when you get a chance loan, it would just be one more financial burden for Jamison to overcome. Making this team viable will be hard enough without outstanding loans to pay back, unless (as suggested a while back from another poster) Jamison will be using the money from the AMF to actually buy the team, which means the CoG is actually buying the team for Jamison.

Acesolid · Jun 12, 2012

Shrimper said:
Been away for a while can anyone keep me up to date on the latest news? I read something about a loan being given?

Here's the situation: There are two things moving at once:

-First: The City of Glendale voted Friday to give about 20 millions a year in the future to Jamison so he can buy the team. However, the plan wasn't given early enough to the people to allow it to be reviewed and so the Goldwater Institute (a watchdog) has scheduled an hearing to challenge the vote in court (this hearing WILL happen, but we dont know when exactly since the judges are currently doing other things).

If they succeed in cancelling the vote, it'll be another 10+ days before the City can do it again, and might therefore really kill the Coyote's chance at a sale.

-Secondly: The potential ownership group is still trying to get more investors together to buy the team. The need to pay 50% of the team cash (about 85 millions) and the rest can be loaned money. Unfortunately, they only have 50 millions so far, AND no Bank in the world will lend them money for such a risky investment (with the team being a very poor colateral).

Therefore it has been suggested that the NHL under the brillant Bettman will loan itself this 85 million to his BFF so he can give it right back to him to buy the Coyotes!

Isn't Bettman just brillant?! All these lawsuits, court hearings and shady illogical dealings just to refuse to admit his past mistakes prove his superior intellect! He makes me swoon! :blush:

JetsFanForever · Jun 12, 2012

My understanding was that the NHL would not allow an ownership group to use more than 50% financing to buy a team.

Based on the supposed 170mm price tag then the most that the NHL could loan GJ would be 85mm. Add that to the 50mm that GJ is rumored to have raised, he is still short by 35mm.

Can somebody please explain where this extra money is coming from, or is GJ still out hunting for more investors?

CoyotesinAZ · Jun 12, 2012

WJG said:
Damn, I was already starting up LIV: in' On Glendale's Prayer

From the last thread:

LIV: Gold water in desert is just a mirage.

NHLfan4life · Jun 12, 2012

Acesolid said:
Here's the situation: There are two things moving at once:

-First: The City of Glendale voted Friday to give about 20 millions a year in the future to Jamison so he can buy the team. However, the plan wasn't given early enough to the people to allow it to be reviewed and so the Goldwater Institute (a watchdog) has scheduled an hearing to challenge the vote in court (this hearing WILL happen, but we dont know when exactly since the judges are currently doing other things).

If they succeed in cancelling the vote, it'll be another 10+ days before the City can do it again, and might therefore really kill the Coyote's chance at a sale.

-Secondly: The potential ownership group is still trying to get more investors together to buy the team. The need to pay 50% of the team cash (about 85 millions) and the rest can be loaned money. Unfortunately, they only have 50 millions so far, AND no Bank in the world will lend them money for such a risky investment (with the team being a very poor colateral).

Therefore it has been suggested that the NHL under the brillant Bettman will loan itself this 85 million to his BFF so he can give it right back to him to buy the Coyotes!

Isn't Bettman just brillant?! All these lawsuits, court hearings and shady illogical dealings just to refuse to admit his past mistakes prove his superior intellect! He makes me swoon!

the bolded above is pure speculation as is most of this board I understand. But, to present it as fact isn't correct. Nobody has a clue as to what is actually happening with the deal other than the NHL and Jamison.

Ludwig Fell Down · Jun 12, 2012

Dado said:
There are very successful models that do the exact opposite. Credit card companies, as but one example, make far more money off of bad-credit people than good-credit people. Owner-financed real estate is a classic - flip the same lot to one deadbeat after another, collecting a new "down payment" every six months.

And that's not even touching the technically-illegal zillion dollar empires built on the backs of heroin users who can't afford a pot to piss in, yet manage to fund several Afghani warlords.

Etc etc etc.

Very true, although I would assert that these business would not sell their entire operation to one of their customers who is borderline credit-worthy and responsible for their profits. Its one thing to make a profit off the downtrodden, another to sell your company and ride off into the sunset without a guarantee of being paid.

sipowicz · Jun 12, 2012

NHLfan4life said:
the bolded above is pure speculation as is most of this board I understand. But, to present it as fact isn't correct. Nobody has a clue as to what is actually happening with the deal other than the NHL and Jamison.

Don't kid yourself, if Jamison really had the money (any money) the deal would have closed immediately after the Glendale vote. And when and if the deal eventually does close does anyone really think Jamison will be able to sustain more than a season or two of losses. Can't see the BOG being happy about this mess.

Acesolid · Jun 12, 2012

NHLfan4life said:
the bolded above is pure speculation as is most of this board I understand. But, to present it as fact isn't correct. Nobody has a clue as to what is actually happening with the deal other than the NHL and Jamison.

Ok, here are my sources:

-''it'll be another 10+ days before the City can do it again'': It was said by council member Lieberman, and the Glendale City Lawyer himself that it'd take about 10 days to redo the vote.

-''The potential ownership group is still trying to get more investors together to buy the team. The need to pay 50% of the team cash (about 85 millions) and the rest can be loaned money. Unfortunately, they only have 50 millions so far, AND no Bank in the world will lend them money for such a risky investment'': Two well known insiders that I trust have reported this in the last few days. Make what you want of this info.

-''Therefore it has been suggested that the NHL under the brillant Bettman will loan itself this 85 million to his BFF so he can give it right back to him to buy the Coyotes!'' : This is in fact speculation (unlike everything else), but I say so myslef by saying it has been suggested!

Does this satisfy you?

JetsFanForever · Jun 12, 2012

Dado said:
There are very successful models that do the exact opposite. Credit card companies, as but one example, make far more money off of bad-credit people than good-credit people. Owner-financed real estate is a classic - flip the same lot to one deadbeat after another, collecting a new "down payment" every six months.

And that's not even touching the technically-illegal zillion dollar empires built on the backs of heroin users who can't afford a pot to piss in, yet manage to fund several Afghani warlords.

Etc etc etc.

These are some interesting examples that you are comparing to.

Credit Card companies - This is not a valid comparison as they are not selling anything. They are loaning you credit, but you do not own any part of their company.

Owner Financed real estate - Are you really comparing the NHL loaning money to GJ to a real estate owner selling their property to a bunch of dead beats. The irony just drips off this comparison.

Afghani warlords - Again, are you really comparing this situation to drug dealers trying to make money by pushing their products.

I understand that you want to defend the Coyotes and this situation at all costs, but you are really reaching here.

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