Phoenix CXVIII: No Promises

[Mightygoose]

It's been 'happening soon' for 7 months now

 

[Fairview]

It's been 'happening soon' for 7 months now

No.. you are wrong!!!! The first promise was for December 2015, then January, after they hired the hot shot arena consultant, then during the AllStar break, then season end...THEN we get to the May promise, which was about 7 months ago. This has actually been a "happening soon" announcement for 11 months

 

[mesamonster]

Get ready, it's happening soon.

I don't believe that for one minute!

 

[TheLegend]

The takeaway from this discussion is pretty clear and has been the primary question most of us have posed for years. Is there a scenario where the Coyotes could exist anywhere in the Valley, new arena, GRA or wherever else where they could achieve profitability? Seems the overwhelming concensus is a resounding NO. Therefore there is little to discuss unless we can all agree that this is the NHL's pet toy which they are happy to absorb any and all losses to promote hockey in non-traditional markets. If that is the case then why bother propping up the IA ice clowns? Why not come clean, eliminate the goofball management and treat this franchise as a company owned store which it certainly appears to be!

Actually quite a few here think otherwise and have said so.

But if you want to continue pushing that narrative to the hilt then knock yourself out.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

... huh?

in essence, why was Glendale the answer, K. SHORT answer, the Suns were the primary tenants, and the Coyotes weren't. See why the 2 aren't likely to co-exist as partners based off what TSRA is now and was from 1996-2003. Primarily why GRA was built to give the Coyotes preference instead of getting whatever dates remained that weren't other events, no matter how many pro teams existed in PHX, and reserving dates for concerts, et all.

 

[Fairview]

in essence, why was Glendale the answer, K. SHORT answer, the Suns were the primary tenants, and the Coyotes weren't. See why the 2 aren't likely to co-exist as partners based off what TSRA is now and was from 1996-2003. Primarily why GRA was built to give the Coyotes preference instead of getting whatever dates remained that weren't other events, no matter how many pro teams existed in PHX, and reserving dates for concerts, et all.

Wouldn't they be walking into the same problem in an arena arrangement with ASU?, especially since it would seem they want to ride ASU's coat tails on this supposed arena? Who controls the venue could be a huge problem for IA? I am thinking that is why the announcement has been on hold for 11 months. IA needs a building and full control, but likely do not have the cash needed to invest to become the principal owner of the building. ASU, rightfully so, are likely wondering..why are we paying the most yet benefiting the least?

 

[sipowicz]

Watched the Jets game in the desert with mostly Jets fans in attendance announced crowd of 11200, yeah sure!

 

[Whileee]

What a crappy ice surface they provided at the GRA. Disgraceful. An NHL game deserves better. It makes the game really boring, and I would think that the Coyotes would want as much entertainment as possible in that market.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

I've posted this again and again Sip:

Hand wringing about attendance is so pointless at this point. They don't even have a place to play next year at this point. This market is so scorched earth, that it's going to take 3 years before we can even think about questioning attendance.

Didn't watch the game, so can't comment on the ice.

 

[Mightygoose]

I don't think attendance talk is pointless at all.

I don't think it's really about whether the Phoenix area is a good market or not.

It's more reflective of the impact ownership is making, not just since they took over. The real focus is this off season.

For months the talk of how this is a team on the rise, best prospects in the league, analytics thinking GM....all in the up and up.

In addition, bringing their AHL team to Tuscon, putting their foot down in their commitment to Arizona, building community rinks too.

Plus ownership and their media partners have been pumping their fists of the new arena plans, the future will be secured...super progress...first and goal.

Despite all of these good optics, with only getting 11K last night...this is with many Jets fans in the crowd, it's glaring this is not resonating with the marketplace. The big elephant in the room is yet to be addressed with a real solution.

As this season moves along, especially is this is going to be another non-playoff year, this will become more glaring as moves along.

First and goal, they need to punch it in. Optics no longer matter.

 

[Confucius]

I've posted this again and again Sip:

Hand wringing about attendance is so pointless at this point. They don't even have a place to play next year at this point. This market is so scorched earth, that it's going to take 3 years before we can even think about questioning attendance.

Didn't watch the game, so can't comment on the ice.

3 years no way, Arizona has to grow a new fan base and that new fan base won't be buying tickets for 20 more years. So let's call it 25 more years to right the ship.

 

[MNNumbers]

Killion.....Calling Killion.......Need input Killion.......


I was reading the Seattle thread, and it seems AEG is one of the players involved in a possible remodel and expansion of Key Arena.

So, what I am trying to figure out is....
If AEG is really just an arm of the NHL, why is AEG involved in that? It seems that the consensus here is that the Key Arena site is not workable for NHL/NBA even if the floor plan can be redone, do to traffic concerns.

What's your interpretation of that piece of the AEG/NHL puzzle?

And, I ask in the Phoenix thread because you are the one who feels that AEG managing GRA is just a plant for the NHL.

 

[powerstuck]

Killion.....Calling Killion.......Need input Killion.......


I was reading the Seattle thread, and it seems AEG is one of the players involved in a possible remodel and expansion of Key Arena.

So, what I am trying to figure out is....
If AEG is really just an arm of the NHL, why is AEG involved in that? It seems that the consensus here is that the Key Arena site is not workable for NHL/NBA even if the floor plan can be redone, do to traffic concerns.

What's your interpretation of that piece of the AEG/NHL puzzle?

And, I ask in the Phoenix thread because you are the one who feels that AEG managing GRA is just a plant for the NHL.

Could it be that NHL knows there is most likely no other way Seattle will have a new arena but to rebuild Key...and well we know how bad NHL wants into Seattle.

 

[MNNumbers]

^^^^^^^^^^
Possibly. I would like to hear Killion on this.

I am starting to wonder if we have things a little backwards here. Our assumption is that the NHL is the power player in the relationship between NHL and AEG. And, since we are interested in hockey, it makes sense that we assume that.

But, what if it's really flipped on its head? What if AEG doesn't need the NHL at all? What if the arena business, which is so huge, and of which AEG has such a large part, is so big, that AEG really doesn't need the NHL at all? And, I think that makes partial sense, anyway.

We talk here quite a bit about how NHL teams need all the arena revenues to be profitable. If that's true, as has often been said, then NHL teams are a drag for arena operators. So, maybe, really, AEG (even if they do own the Kings - and LA is such a large market that the usual rules may not apply there), doesn't care who owns what. Or, which NHL team is where.

Maybe, the business is such that AEG has the capacity to tell Bettman and the BOG "We don't care what you are telling us about loyalty to the league. We are running GRA for our profit. And, if we can, we are going to get into Seattle, too. And, it may only be for NBA. We're not sure yet. If you don't like it, lump it."

 

[The Feckless Puck]

What's your interpretation of that piece of the AEG/NHL puzzle?

And, I ask in the Phoenix thread because you are the one who feels that AEG managing GRA is just a plant for the NHL.

I'm not Killion but I think it's premature for the tinfoil. AEG wants Key to be remodeled and used rather than a new arena because that benefits AEG directly. A new arena a) delivers no profits to AEG and b) devalues the asset AEG manages.

And I think, honestly, that AEG sees NBA $$$ in their eyes more than NHL at the moment.

 

[Killion]

in essence, why was Glendale the answer, K. SHORT answer, the Suns were the primary tenants, and the Coyotes weren't. See why the 2 aren't likely to co-exist as partners based off what TSRA is now and was from 1996-2003. Primarily why GRA was built to give the Coyotes preference instead of getting whatever dates remained that weren't other events, no matter how many pro teams existed in PHX, and reserving dates for concerts, et all.

Because unlike Scottsdale who demanded to see Steve Ellmans opened books before supporting & investing in a new arena Glendale pretty much took him at face value, rolled over & in record time considering the magnitude of the project.... Absolutely the Coyotes tenure at America West Airways Arena (now called Talking Stick Resort Arena as you know) was compromised, from the agreement with Colangelo to configuration it was fatally flawed before they even moved in. Making matters worse, the relationship between neophyte owners Burke & Gluckstern and Jerry Colangelo became toxic. The former feeling that they'd rather than being thrown a Life Buoy they'd actually been thrown an Anchor coming out of Minnesota, being directed to Phoenix no doubt by Jerrys' old NBA Buddy Gary Bettman, Colangelo deep in debt with that building recently opened, a paying tenant in the Coyotes, Burke & Gluckstern going a long way (or so he thought), and so he really stuck it to them.

Thats why they moved as quickly as they did. Burke headed for greener pastures on Long Island briefly owning part of the Isles; Gluckstern hanging in but not super-rich & so enter Salesman Steve Ellman. Not a hockey guy, not even a "sports guy". All about real estate plays, the franchise merely the hook, emotional quotient. This franchise has never had really honest decent & true ownership, people who know what their doing. Never. Most had "good intentions" however good intentions can often come with a pretty high price tag and in this case, ownership was & still is looking for others to pay that price, to pay the piper... the caterers... the banquet hall the chauffeurs the tailors tinkers soldiers spys. All on everyones elses, the public's dime. Who are these people that they should feel so entitled? Who are these men of lust, greed & glory?... And thats why were all here HUTCH, to try & rip off the masks & lets see.

What a crappy ice surface they provided at the GRA. Disgraceful. An NHL game deserves better. It makes the game really boring, and I would think that the Coyotes would want as much entertainment as possible in that market.

... possibly deliberate? slow things down. particularly if your playing a total team system defence. you dont want fast ice Whileee. old trick.... lots of em... mebbe add a couple inches to the height of the nets down at the Visitors end so your cement hand forwards have more to shoot at for 2 periods.... crank the heat up in their dressing room... turn off the cold water.... all kinds of things you can do to gain an advantage.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

... possibly deliberate? slow things down. particularly if your playing a total team system defence. you dont want fast ice Whileee. old trick.... lots of em... mebbe add a couple inches to the height of the nets down at the Visitors end so your cement hand forwards have more to shoot at for 2 periods.... crank the heat up in their dressing room... turn off the cold water.... all kinds of things you can do to gain an advantage.

Not sure if serious, but I actually got to ride the Zamboni a couple of years ago as a STH perk and I asked the guy why the ice was always so bad. His answer was that it was a combination of Arizona having so little humidity and the fact that up until he started working there that the people maintaining the ice were incompetent. He mentioned that they had basically overhauled the staff and that things were improving, but that without a complete rebuild of the GRA facilities it likely wouldn't ever be ideal.

 

[Killion]

Not sure if serious, but I actually got to ride the Zamboni a couple of years ago as a STH perk and I asked the guy why the ice was always so bad. His answer was that it was a combination of Arizona having so little humidity and the fact that up until he started working there that the people maintaining the ice were incompetent. He mentioned that they had basically overhauled the staff and that things were improving, but that without a complete rebuild of the GRA facilities it likely wouldn't ever be ideal.

... theres usually a grain of truth to most humor as you know TFP, and in this case yes, precedent & examples of those sorts of Shenanigans taking place in the game.... for example... one night Jacques Plante noticed in Chicago at the old Stadium that the Top Crossbar seemed to be hitting a point much higher on his back than it did in Montreal, Toronto, everywhere else.... But that it was at the normal-usual height when he played down at the other end during the 2nd Period, The Blackhawks Home end. So... he has a little chat with the Ref. Lets just measure this net shall we and sure enough, Oversized!. And for how long, how many years is anyones guess as only Plante at that time really paid that kind of Professorial attention to his posts & the crossbar in playing the angles, Stand-Up Goaltending... I wasnt aware of the fact that GRA is in need of a whole new ice-plant, possible total upgrade on HVAC etc etc etc. That is a major MAJOR Big Time expenditure if the case.... Man... the news just keeps getting better & better huh?

 

[Fugu]

I was reading the Seattle thread, and it seems AEG is one of the players involved in a possible remodel and expansion of Key Arena.

So, what I am trying to figure out is....
If AEG is really just an arm of the NHL, why is AEG involved in that? It seems that the consensus here is that the Key Arena site is not workable for NHL/NBA even if the floor plan can be redone, do to traffic concerns.

What's your interpretation of that piece of the AEG/NHL puzzle?

And, I ask in the Phoenix thread because you are the one who feels that AEG managing GRA is just a plant for the NHL.

I know you called for Killion, but my personal recommendation is that you read about AEG and what their primary business is, which by the way is NOT just owning sports teams.

^^^^^^^^^^
Possibly. I would like to hear Killion on this.

I am starting to wonder if we have things a little backwards here. Our assumption is that the NHL is the power player in the relationship between NHL and AEG. And, since we are interested in hockey, it makes sense that we assume that.

But, what if it's really flipped on its head? What if AEG doesn't need the NHL at all? What if the arena business, which is so huge, and of which AEG has such a large part, is so big, that AEG really doesn't need the NHL at all? And, I think that makes partial sense, anyway.

...

Now you're on the right track. They own some arenas, they are a promoter, they are global. Anschutz is one of the richest owners in the NHL. I doubt anyone is telling him what to do.

 

[Killion]

Killion.....Calling Killion.......Need input Killion.......


I was reading the Seattle thread, and it seems AEG is one of the players involved in a possible remodel and expansion of Key Arena.

So, what I am trying to figure out is....
If AEG is really just an arm of the NHL, why is AEG involved in that? It seems that the consensus here is that the Key Arena site is not workable for NHL/NBA even if the floor plan can be redone, do to traffic concerns.

What's your interpretation of that piece of the AEG/NHL puzzle?

And, I ask in the Phoenix thread because you are the one who feels that AEG managing GRA is just a plant for the NHL.

... ok... here I be.... on the bolded there, I think youve run away, a lot further than I intended with my earlier comment.

Could it be that NHL knows there is most likely no other way Seattle will have a new arena but to rebuild Key...and well we know how bad NHL wants into Seattle.

Entirely possible.

^^^^^^^^^^
Possibly. I would like to hear Killion on this.

I am starting to wonder if we have things a little backwards here. Our assumption is that the NHL is the power player in the relationship between NHL and AEG. And, since we are interested in hockey, it makes sense that we assume that.

But, what if it's really flipped on its head? What if AEG doesn't need the NHL at all? What if the arena business, which is so huge, and of which AEG has such a large part, is so big, that AEG really doesn't need the NHL at all? And, I think that makes partial sense, anyway.

We talk here quite a bit about how NHL teams need all the arena revenues to be profitable. If that's true, as has often been said, then NHL teams are a drag for arena operators. So, maybe, really, AEG (even if they do own the Kings - and LA is such a large market that the usual rules may not apply there), doesn't care who owns what. Or, which NHL team is where.

Maybe, the business is such that AEG has the capacity to tell Bettman and the BOG "We don't care what you are telling us about loyalty to the league. We are running GRA for our profit. And, if we can, we are going to get into Seattle, too. And, it may only be for NBA. We're not sure yet. If you don't like it, lump it."

No, thats not my assumption nor working hypothesis MNN. Your getting into the realms of relativism and Im not a big fan of relativism. Your asking or suggesting that "AEG doesnt need the NHL" and thats actually correct on one level but incorrect on other levels. Its complicated, a complicated & complex relationship. Massive web of interconnections, of influence. These guys have either directly funded & or developed (in partnership with major real estate developers) and or manage the top 21 grossing facilities World-Wide.

I'm not Killion but I think it's premature for the tinfoil. AEG wants Key to be remodeled and used rather than a new arena because that benefits AEG directly. A new arena a) delivers no profits to AEG and b) devalues the asset AEG manages.

And I think, honestly, that AEG sees NBA $$$ in their eyes more than NHL at the moment.

Sure, they want to monopolize as many markets as possible. That would absolutely include Seattle.

I know you called for Killion, but my personal recommendation is that you read about AEG and what their primary business is, which by the way is NOT just owning sports teams.

Now you're on the right track. They own some arenas, they are a promoter, they are global. Anschutz is one of the richest owners in the NHL. I doubt anyone is telling him what to do.

Exactly. They have several different divisions. Facility Development, Facility Management, AEG Live (concerts & events) and they own specifically as it relates to this discussion, the Kings. Their core-business is facility development, indoor-outdoor-hybrids followed by Facility Management followed by Live Presentation, their own in-house production, mgmnt & booking services.... and no, no one tells Anschutz what to do but then he's not dealing with the NHL day-day or even much at all. Way above doing so, that the purview of whatever executives within the organization directly responsible for the franchise, and who would also be expected to integrate AEG's Development & Management Divisions fully into the fabric of the NHL itself, all 31 teams if possible. Insiders.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Because unlike Scottsdale who demanded to see Steve Ellmans opened books before supporting & investing in a new arena Glendale pretty much took him at face value, rolled over & in record time considering the magnitude of the project.... Absolutely the Coyotes tenure at America West Airways Arena (now called Talking Stick Resort Arena as you know) was compromised, from the agreement with Colangelo to configuration it was fatally flawed before they even moved in. Making matters worse, the relationship between neophyte owners Burke & Gluckstern and Jerry Colangelo became toxic. The former feeling that they'd rather than being thrown a Life Buoy they'd actually been thrown an Anchor coming out of Minnesota, being directed to Phoenix no doubt by Jerrys' old NBA Buddy Gary Bettman, Colangelo deep in debt with that building recently opened, a paying tenant in the Coyotes, Burke & Gluckstern going a long way (or so he thought), and so he really stuck it to them.

Thats why they moved as quickly as they did. Burke headed for greener pastures on Long Island briefly owning part of the Isles; Gluckstern hanging in but not super-rich & so enter Salesman Steve Ellman. Not a hockey guy, not even a "sports guy". All about real estate plays, the franchise merely the hook, emotional quotient. This franchise has never had really honest decent & true ownership, people who know what their doing. Never. Most had "good intentions" however good intentions can often come with a pretty high price tag and in this case, ownership was & still is looking for others to pay that price, to pay the piper... the caterers... the banquet hall the chauffeurs the tailors tinkers soldiers spys. All on everyones elses, the public's dime. Who are these people that they should s entitled? Who are these men of lust, greed & glory?... And that why were all here HUTCH, to rip off the masks & see.



... possibly deliberate? slow things down. particularly if your playing a total team system defence. you dont want fast ice Whileee. old trick.... lots of em... mebbe add a couple inches to the height of the nets down at the Visitors end so your cement hand forwards have more to shoot at for 2 periods.... crank the heat up in their dressing room... turn off the cold water.... all kinds of things you can do to gain an advantage.

The first part of this response is what Fairview doesn't quite seem to grasp here....

in any partnership, even with the Suns or ASU, PAST HISTORY should tell you, in layman's terms, without the legalese, where this franchise is and has been since 1996, great job summarizing there, K.

I suspect IA WILL NOT want to have a repeat of the 1996-2003 experiment where the Coyotes were deemed as a secondary tenant, and why they sought to have what they had in Winnipeg as a sole tenant and control as many revenue streams as possible.

if it is a partnership w/ ASU, AZ Coyotes likely will be deemed a primary tenant, just as they're getting the revenue from having ASU hockey play a limited schedule @ GRA.

I agree as well w/ Mightygoose, that IA and anything involving the Coyotes, whether it be the lease, the Tucson franchise, etc.... shows that the NHL has no issues w/ how IA operates either franchise.

 

[Llama19]

... theres usually a grain of truth to most humor as you know TFP, and in this case yes, precedent & examples of those sorts of Shenanigans taking place in the game.... for example... one night Jacques Plante noticed in Chicago at the old Stadium that the Top Crossbar seemed to be hitting a point much higher on his back than it did in Montreal, Toronto, everywhere else.... But that it was at the normal-usual height when he played down at the other end during the 2nd Period, The Blackhawks Home end. So... he has a little chat with the Ref. Lets just measure this net shall we and sure enough, Oversized!. And for how long, how many years is anyones guess as only Plante at that time really paid that kind of Professorial attention to his posts & the crossbar in playing the angles, Stand-Up Goaltending... I wasnt aware of the fact that GRA is in need of a whole new ice-plant, possible total upgrade on HVAC etc etc etc. That is a major MAJOR Big Time expenditure if the case.... Man... the news just keeps getting better & better huh?

Not sure if serious, but I actually got to ride the Zamboni a couple of years ago as a STH perk and I asked the guy why the ice was always so bad. His answer was that it was a combination of Arizona having so little humidity and the fact that up until he started working there that the people maintaining the ice were incompetent. He mentioned that they had basically overhauled the staff and that things were improving, but that without a complete rebuild of the GRA facilities it likely wouldn't ever be ideal.

I guess IceArizona could not pay to keep JJ Straker here as he has moved on to Rogers Place...

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Watched the Jets game in the desert with mostly Jets fans in attendance announced crowd of 11200, yeah sure!

Were you in attendance, or watching on TV (presumably TSN)?

Because I was in the arena. And I disagree with this statement.

 

[Fairview]

The first part of this response is what Fairview doesn't quite seem to grasp here....

in any partnership, even with the Suns or ASU, PAST HISTORY should tell you, in layman's terms, without the legalese, where this franchise is and has been since 1996, great job summarizing there, K.

I suspect IA WILL NOT want to have a repeat of the 1996-2003 experiment where the Coyotes were deemed as a secondary tenant, and why they sought to have what they had in Winnipeg as a sole tenant and control as many revenue streams as possible.

if it is a partnership w/ ASU, AZ Coyotes likely will be deemed a primary tenant,just as they're getting the revenue from having ASU hockey play a limited schedule @ GRA.

I agree as well w/ Mightygoose, that IA and anything involving the Coyotes, whether it be the lease, the Tucson franchise, etc.... shows that the NHL has no issues w/ how IA operates either franchise.

Primary tenant..? That does not work for IA. they need to be deemed as the owner of the facility. they need most if not all of the revenue to have a chance at being remotely solvent. The question is..who will pay most if not all of the arena construction costs and then give up most if not all of the benefits to IA? Revenue from just the NHL games not nearly enough for IA.

 

[CasualFan]

Hypothetically, if one was going to seek legislative approval for a new special tax district to help fund arena construction - one would likely want a site selection announcement between now and Thanksgiving. Then one could spend December attempting to build momentum / create pressure to put on the legislature so when AZLeg Session begins in January, there is already a discussion on the table. Helps grease the skid, if you will. Very common pattern in all types of public-private partnerships at all levels of government.

In the tea leaves, if IA goes back to lobbying for a tax district as they did in the 2016 AZLeg session that is a fairly strong indication that they are at zero and trying to create a financing option (ie- they do not have a tribal partner or a framework with ASU)