Phoenix CXVIII: No Promises

[mesamonster]

No no no no no... this is totally different from "have an announcement in 2 weeks" or whatever about a new arena mega project. Anyone with half a brain knows those kinds of projects can take months, years. However if your hearing such from your hometown teams ownership, planning to move within the market, looking for a suitable site & partners, shoring up the financing youd also expect to hear "were very excited about this but meanwhile, signed an extension for another 3-4 seasons with AEG to play out of GRA while we finalize the details & get shovels in the ground".... These things dont get built overnight. All kinds of things to work through & people know that. Absolutely preposterous to assume that AEG would construct a punitive & onerous Temporary Lease Agreement featuring massive early exit penalties or whatever and in fact quite the opposite. Work with them in the most favorable & flexible of fashions possible. Theres just no damn good reason for the Extension to not have been delivered up last spring, over this past summer at the latest. None. The only excuse for it is that these guys simply cant come up with the coin to make anything happen & that perhaps (and understandably) they are having a lot pf problems in attracting investors based on their own lack of capital & checkered past in Glendale. Maybe the NHL's given them a Hard Deadline, end of season, any appetite at State Level? How are you doing with investors, partners? Site sewn up? No idea. But if their truly honestly committed to the market there is absolutely no excuse for not having signed an Extension. As I said, sign an Extension you stem the losses, everything to gain in doing so. Clearly something else going on, problem, hidden agenda. Though just what exactly?

The arena positioning and partnering is all wonderful and fine to talk about, however, time and again what gets lost in the shuffle of all of the IA blustering about new super progressed sites is the economic model. When have we ever seen or heard IA put forth the economic realities of a new area? if I am the state legislature or the board of regents at ASU wouldn`t the first question asked of IA be show us your numbers. Show us explicitly how you intend to build a franchise that has staying power via either your balance sheet, pro forma income statement or both. We can debate the virtues of a new arena subsidized with state funds or STD`s or ASU alumni funding, but why go there when the elephant in the room is the basic economic viability of this franchise and its ownership? This is akin to erecting a new office building for a tenant whose track record is dubious and furthermore is selling a product that for 20 years has not been received well enough to suggest that anything in their future is going to change. A new building may bring an increase in attendance for a period of time , but the cost of having a look at that period of time may very well not be worth the risk to the partner or the developer?

So why are we ruminating over a new arena when we all know that the tenant has a dubious credit history and a product that the sunbelt has yet to fully endorse?

 

[Killion]

He says what he thinks the market wants to hear..whether it is true or not he just doesn't consider.IMO

Yeah, he speaks like a hick politician, his one time erstwhile ambition in life. Actually ran for office in the Ontario Provincial Elections as a member of the Progressive Conservatives in 2011. Thunder Bay - Superior North. Got absolutely hammered at the polls of course. His full-time job after leaving RIM an Ottawa Wonk. Lobbyist. Back Room Boy. Obviously doesnt understand having never really worked in the real world that if your going to open your mouth & promise things youd GD well better delver & that there are serious repercussions for failing to do so. No Mommy, no corporate megalith like Rim or political party to protect you, gloss over your mistakes, indiscretions, broken promises. Sports & entertainment fields in particular & he should know that by now, everything he says & does scrutinized, people extremely unforgiving you mess up repeatedly, tell half truths , play your audience for fools.

 

[Fairview]

Has not LeBlanc been quiet since June? Outside of the interview with the local ABC station and preseason event with STHs he's been a proverbial monk.

The only place you would think otherwise is this board because some posters want to perpetuate the "LeBluster" narrative.

This fan base has been on a roller coaster ride for seven years now with talks of the team leaving every year it seems. So why continue putting them through that and just have one last deal in place that's set in stone?

I get where you're coming from.... and an announcement now with a possible blip in the timeline down the road wouldn't bother me either. But we can't speak for those who don't visit fan boards on a near daily basis.

Well, I don't think he has been quiet since June.At the end of June he said by the end of summer. Early October, he made a comment about an announcement would be out shortly and that the fans should take comfort in that. Then there was the comment about "First and Goal" and also there was a comment about ..once again..there will be an announcement before season's end. He is saying the same things he said last year. Are you suggesting that I am making that up??

 

[Killion]

This fan base has been on a roller coaster ride for seven years now with talks of the team leaving every year it seems. So why continue putting them through that and just have one last deal in place that's set in stone?

Really the only healthy attitude to adopt that you, Kihekah and many others have is to learn how to be happy in the hear & now,
dont brood over whats happened or what might happen, destroys your happiness today, so... whatever happens happens.

Out of your control so why sweat it? Que sera sera.

... So why are we ruminating over a new arena when we all know that the tenant has a dubious credit history and a product that the sunbelt has yet to fully endorse?

Why do people slow down when driving past an accident?
Why do people become incensed when their treated like idiots & lied to?

Why is that people driving faster than you are idiots & everyone driving slower a moron?

Why doesnt McDonalds sell hot dogs?
Is their a time limit on fortune cookie predictions?

Can you daydream at night?
Can crop circles be square?


.... so many questions mesa.


... reminds me... if bread is square, why is most luncheon meat round?

 

[Fugu]

Not to create an argument, here. Yet, there is a discrepancy I think needs to be addressed, because something isn't making sense.

I want to point out that Killion continues to tell us that AEG running GRA for CoG is somehow a case of insider trading, and that, because AEG has a relationship with the NHL, that AEG will find a way to keep the Coyotes at GRA, funneling some funds there - and that CoG will regret choosing them as their arena operator. My impression of K's opinings here are that K thinks CoG is naive in their approach, and that NHL/AEG will take advantage of them at every step.

I see the possibility of that. However, given the way AEG comes up in every arena story everywhere, seemingly, I am starting to think now that AEG is involved in GRA for one reason: Their own profit. They wanted the out-clause in their contract because, if IA somehow does get another arena built, GRA will not be nearly as lucrative as it is currently. Merely on the surface, it seems that everything they have done there coincides with that idea. <snip>

These are my thoughts. They are tending to their primary business, and running/managing arenas for cities or other owners is one of those functions.

And also the Sprint Center in Kansas City. My understanding, the reason why they don't have a team and haven't been a serious player in a while is because the city doesn't want or feel the need to cut a potential owner a sweet deal.

Nothing to do with AEG.

AEG had a contract with the city to find an anchor tenant, either NBA or NHL, iirc, which lasted about three years. The main thing they could not attract was an owner and a team to place there from either league, though Lemieux used a "visit" there to pressure Pittsburgh and Pennsylvania on their new arena request.

 

[Fugu]

Finally, you yourself attribute the need for an AEG "out clause" should IA be successful in getting a new building up as they recognize the fact that if successful, the market will be over-inventoried & over-crowded, that absent an anchor tenant doomed to failure. This is only partially true. And remember, AEG totally privy to IA's financials, NHL plans for that franchise. If they leave the State, no new facility, GRA competing only against Talking Stick for concerts & events without an anchor well, weve all seen studies that absolutely refute such a contention that it cant or wont work. Look at AEG's operations at the Sprint Center in KC for eg. It was that model that they pedaled to the COG. That while it would be fabulous if we could keep the Coyotes, never fear, AEG is here.... only it appears... not so much huh? And having watched these guys operate for several decades, dealt with them myself, I can tell you unreservedly & objectively that they owe no loyalties to anything nor to anyone beyond the bottom-line, dont play nice all the time or not at all some of the time in achieving their objectives. Absolutely ruthless. So no, not "far fetched" at all whatsoever that as TL puts it, could well be a "Mole". Major player's in a coup.

You're fine until that last bit starting with, "Son, not "far fetched..."

This is about their business and they should worry about their bottom line, which it seems they're doing. They'll exit if they make no money. It has nothing to do with protecting the Coyotes to their own cost.

 

[Killion]

This is about their business and they should worry about their bottom line, which it seems they're doing. They'll exit if they make no money. It has nothing to do with protecting the Coyotes to their own cost.

I hope for the COG's sake that your right and that they dont pull a total Tank Job the way they did under NHL ownership from 2009 through 13.... That they would do that, that they did so, I'm afraid that doesnt speak very highly to any concerns over profit nor to much in the way of integrity as to me it seemed absolutely deliberate. In "keeping the lights off" with barely a handful of events booked over those nearly 5yrs, through their non-performance they played right into the NHL's & IceArizonas hands, serving to underscore the false premise that without the Coyotes anchoring & their 41 home dates that the facility was absolutely doomed. That in Gary Bettmans own words, they'll have to shutter it up (close enough). That no cost would be too high in keeping the team in Glendale. A well laid trap, City of Glendale walked right into it, bought the NHL's & IA's guff lock, stock & smoking barrels. AEG playing its role to the hilt, hanging a Gone Fishin sign on the door, in-bound phone calls direct to voice-mail... no one ever called back... For nearly 4yrs Fugu.... Thats some kinda fishin trip huh?.... World Tour... Fishin Down Under to Hillbilly Handfishin, going after River Monsters on the Zambezi to trophy Pike & Muskie with Babe Winkelman up there in the Wilds of Minnesoda.

 

[Fugu]

Tim Lieweekly is no longer there.

 

[Killion]

Tim Lieweekly is no longer there.

.... wonder what Parolee' they hired to replace him.............................................................................. when does Boots get out?

 

[Fugu]

.... wonder what Parolee' they hired to replace him.............................................................................. when does Boots get out?

He got eight years, apparently:

http://www.mercurynews.com/2009/09/...sentenced-to-8-years-for-investment-scheme-2/

 

[Killion]

He got eight years, apparently:

http://www.mercurynews.com/2009/09/...sentenced-to-8-years-for-investment-scheme-2/

... should be available shortly then, good behaviour n' all.

 

[GareFan18]

Kansas City, you have to remember, borders the State line, between Missouri and Kansas, since the city is listed on both states....

it, as you suggested, has a lot to do w/ KC's history, sports-wise, if it's not for Lamar Hunt and successors, and Ewing Kauffman and successors would the Chiefs and Royals have adjoining stadiums....

the other issue is why you're seeing St. Louis not actively seeking a tenant for the EJ Dome after what Kroenke and the Rams decision to land at the former Hollywood Park track in Inglewood.

now, the Kansas side of Kansas City might be different, with the Casino and Kansas Speedway as what you've seen on the Missouri side.

Sprint Center and its predecessor, Kemper Arena were likely burned by the NBA Kings, that it just isn't worth the fight to locate a team there, despite AEG management (and likely bars any AEG ownership when you manage an arena without a tenant) .

after Pittsburgh's flirtation and the subsequent building of Consol Energy Center, even pro hockey has stayed to the suburbs as the ECHL Mavericks showed in Independence, it may just not be economical to be in a market that isn't open or business-friendly to any franchise.

Wow. There are some real inaccuracies here. Let me help you understand the city in which I've lived for the last 25 years (no, I'm not 25 years old, double it).

Yes, actually KC would have adjoining stadiums, even without Ewing Kauffman and Lamar Hunt. Heck, they shared a stadium at 22nd & Brooklyn for several seasons. Jackson County built the Truman Sports Complex to house both teams. The Truman Sports Complex is where it is because, well, the land acquisition cost was cheap. I'd love to have downtown stadiums, but when they were built in the 70s, that wasn't viable.

Kansas City is NOT listed in both states. Kansas City, MISSOURI is the downtown area and a city that runs from the airport (North, in Platte County) to across the river and South until it gets to Grandview.
Kansas City, KANSAS has a small downtown, which you can see from downtown KCMO and has a Unified Government with the county in which it resides -- Wyandotte County.

Sprint Center was never "burned" by anyone. Voters passed a hotel/rental car tax to build Sprint Center as part of a total downtown revitalization. Kemper Arena is in the West Bottoms, near downtown but in, for lack of a better description, a river valley between KCMO and KCK. It's not a great location. For instance, you can't walk from an downtown office building to Kemper. It is there for the same reason the Truman Sports Complex is out near Raytown...land was cheap (in Kemper's case, the land was free).

I don't even know how to address the NASCAR track/casino comment. Other than to say, KCK and Wyandotte County are a Unified Government and the NASCAR track/casino/Sporting KC stadium are out in the County and no where near KCK's small, empty downtown.

The Kings didn't really "burn" the city. It was more like a candle burning out. The Kings were owned by a group of 13 investors and, quite honestly, they didn't want to stay in KC. They saw stars in their eyes to move to Cali. Plus, the Kings were never able to capitalize on the boom in the NBA that came with Magic and Bird.

AEG never, ever considered minor league hockey for Sprint Center. AEG never wanted to tie up weekend dates with minor league hockey -- even though the Blades consistently drew 9,000 to Kemper in the IHL days.

Actually, the Mavericks have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Sprint Center. NOTHING! The arena in Independence was built with the express purpose of bringing in a CHL team. Horn Chen had targeted the Greater Kansas City area for some time. A special taxing district in Independence pays for the arena. The taxing district includes a Costco and Bass Pro Shops.

AEG can't own two NHL teams. They CAN operate an NHL arena in which a different NHL team plays, but why? In that scenario, one NHL owner pays a fee to, essentially, another NHL owner to operate their arena. We all know the way for an NHL owner to make REAL money is to own the NHL team and operate the arena (see Nashville, Carolina, Florida and many other NHL teams), so they can generate revenue from non hockey-related events.

When AEG was backing the hotel/rental car tax to get Sprint Center funded/built, Tim Leiweke, a former KC resident, blew a bunch of smoke up City leaders behinds (and the media's) by saying he PROMISED to bring an NHL or NBA team to Kansas City. He essentially said, "if you build it, they'll come". Me, and my hockey-playing buddies, knew he was totally full of sh---aving cream. Heck, for a period of time, I even wrote a blog solely focused on how Leiweke was lying to us. I'd call local sports talk stations to go point-by-point about how Leiweke is lying and they'd hang up on me. At one time, a local sports talker said it was a better than 50% chance the New Orleans Hornets would move to KC. I called, and told him it was less than 5% and he hung up on me. Once Lie-weekly, was gone from AEG, talk of an NHL/NBA team at Sprint Center started to die. Now, no one talks about it because now people know it will never happen (and people say to me --- boy, you were right all along). It's on the city to pursue an NHL/NBA tenant and they're simply not interested because, in it's current state without an NBA/NHL owner demanding to share revenue, Sprint Center turns a (small) profit for the city.

What does this have to do with the Coyotes? Well, not much. I just wanted to point out the inaccuracies in the other post.

I will say this -- with Kansas City, AEG has set a model for how a 16,000 seat arena CAN operate in a city, and turn a profit, without an anchor tenant. If I were a Coyotes fan, I wouldn't trust one thing that anyone from AEG says.

Oh, by the way, the KC metro area is getting another 6,000 seat arena in South Overland Park for a USHL team. It's a done deal.

 

[aqib]

... should be available shortly then, good behaviour n' all.

he was released in january:

https://www.bop.gov/inmateloc/

 

[TheLegend]

Well, I don't think he has been quiet since June.At the end of June he said by the end of summer. Early October, he made a comment about an announcement would be out shortly and that the fans should take comfort in that. Then there was the comment about "First and Goal" and also there was a comment about ..once again..there will be an announcement before season's end. He is saying the same things he said last year. Are you suggesting that I am making that up??

What you probably saw since June were articles that repeated statements he had made in June. I know... I read them too, and they looked on the surface like he was still openly talking to the media but the reality is ever since they announced they had a site picked out he's essentially been quiet until just before the season started, which was four months later.

But we're arguing over what is really an insignificant point in the whole affair.

 

[Llama19]

As ASU appears to be the front-runner as an arena 'partner'...

We are getting closer to having a new thread title...

Phoenix CXIX: ASU - Arena Subsidy U
Phoenix CXIX: Lots of (College) Try...
Phoenix CXIX: Sis, Boom, Buy!
Phoenix CXIX: Special Tax District

[Since the Karsten Golf Course was mentioned as a 'likely' location...]

Phoenix CXIX: Drained or Beached?
Phoenix CXIX: Flying for the Green
Phoenix CXIX: Arena Mulligan
Phoenix CXIX: Playing For The Tips
Phoenix CXIX: Yips to the Arena

 

[Killion]

Wow. There are some real inaccuracies here. Let me help you understand the city in which I've lived for the last 25 years (no, I'm not 25 years old, double it)....

What does this have to do with the Coyotes? Well, not much. I just wanted to point out the inaccuracies in the other post.

I will say this -- with Kansas City, AEG has set a model for how a 16,000 seat arena CAN operate in a city, and turn a profit, without an anchor tenant. If I were a Coyotes fan, I wouldn't trust one thing that anyone from AEG says.

Thanks for coming on over & posting all of that (edited part included) info, blowing the smoke away.... essentially confirming what Ive been trying to tell people here about AEG, a story Ive oft heard from disappointed fans from KC; professionally from various people who I know who have dealt with them over the years (including myself though the experience positive). Lets just say their moral compass is busted, glass is cracked, friggin needle long gone leave it at that, and knowing that, why I laid out my little Conspiracy Theory earlier on. Been watching them for years.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, AEG's presentation to the Mayor & Council of Glendale with the public in attendance and aired on the cities cable station made barely a mention of the Coyotes, pointedly so... that they were delighted to be selected by way of the RFP which was handled by the very sketchy Beacon Sports Capital Mgmnt group... totally sexed up presentation, corporate video included featuring everything from 02 Arena Olympic events to live concert footage from the Stones to Katy Perry & so on & so on. That while they "hoped" they could retain the Coyotes, their interests were in "keeping the lights on" all year long with a tsunami of concerts & events. That it was a "sad day when no events were booked". Stand alone concerts & events, NHL team stays great but the implication, inference being that if the left no fear, AEG is here. Forever & ever. Not one peep about the freakin "out clause" they had written into the contract should the team depart.

What struck me most of all, my first impression, gut feel wasnt good just looking at these guys... definitely not even AEG's 'A' Troop-.... dour & subdued nature of these guys making that presentation, rather than being high energy, well put together, charismatic promoters they looked like and came across as... at least to me... a bunch of chalk stained, seedy & just downright creepy Morticians selling pre-arranged funerals. So more like their 'F' Troop. Forrest Tucker, Larry Storch... . Way down in the minors. One of the more bizarre spectacles Ive ever witnessed on municipal television I must say... some Security Wonk talking about well, "security". Droning on for like 20 minutes about it. Way to grab your audience Buddy. Scare them all with talk of terrorists. Bombs. AEG gunna save ya'll on top of everything else. Superheros'..... Next up, VP of Marketing, sweaty, false teeth, comb over, cheap suit, looked like & spoke like a really really REALLY bad and annoying door-door insurance or freezer food salesman. And absolutely no one, no one talking about the Coyotes. Something very strange going on in Glendale.

... oh, and thanks, nice link aqib. Holy moly.

 

[Killion]

As ASU appears to be the front-runner as an arena 'partner'...

We are getting closer to having a new thread title...

Phoenix CXIX: ASU - Arena Subsidy U
Phoenix CXIX: Lots of (College) Try...
Phoenix CXIX: Sis, Boom, Buy!
Phoenix CXIX: Special Tax District

[Since the Karsten Golf Course was mentioned as a 'likely' location...]

Phoenix CXIX: Drained or Beached?
Phoenix CXIX: Flying for the Green
Phoenix CXIX: Arena Mulligan
Phoenix CXIX: Playing For The Tips
Phoenix CXIX: Yips to the Arena

Well, in honor of old man Karsten...

Phoenix CXIX: Run Silent, Run Deep - Ping... Ping... Ping.. (nope, sorry Cap'n, theres just nothing out there)

 

[GuelphStormer]

Tim Lieweekly is no longer there.

well played

 

[mesamonster]

What you probably saw since June were articles that repeated statements he had made in June. I know... I read them too, and they looked on the surface like he was still openly talking to the media but the reality is ever since they announced they had a site picked out he's essentially been quiet until just before the season started, which was four months later.

But we're arguing over what is really an insignificant point in the whole affair.

IA wants us all to desperately believe they are closing in on a new site to take the pressure of of the non negotiations going on between them and AEG. Little has come of their pursuit to land a new venue and for good reason. They have shown that their present business model, which will remain with them wherever they may go, does not change when given a new location. Still remaining is all of their debt and expenses and only a modicum of revenue enhancement. Add it all up, and the red ink continues to flow. There is no need to go any further in asking why they have been so slow to select a partner and site. Businesses that do not have a profitable product and little equity eventually fall prey to market forces. IA, and even Tony understand this all too well. They have been aware of the fact that their business either stays in Glendale or moves elsewhere in relocation. The option of moving to another venue in the Valley simply makes no financial sense either from their perspective or any other entity that would want to partner with them. This the reality of this situation, simply business, and in this case it is a business that makes little financial sense and is therefore running on empty in its final year!

 

[Killion]

... it is a business that makes little financial sense and is therefore running on empty in its final year!

... be careful with this ongoing prognostication of yours my friend. never underestimate the stupidity of the political & institutional classes, of ego driven commercial real estate speculators & investors. I agree it all seems little more than a grand facade, LeBlanc trivializing the issue of signing an extension when asked about it; pivoting, re-directing the subject matter at hand to the new arena project but still. Pretty elaborate cover if none of its "real", designed only to avoid a lame duck season. I dont think its all an illusion, though I do believe Anthony LeBlanc & others involved do suffer mightily from delusions of grandeur. The lot of them, trying to punch a hole in the sky & way out of their Weight Class. Hubris only takes one so far in life. Either perform or you hit the canvas and I dont mean just getting knocked down, get back up & keep slugging. I mean your out cold. Thats what happens when you lack the disposition, character & imagination, training & experience. Done. These guys never should have been put in the Ring by the NHL in the first place. Practically criminal. Talk about a Circus. All reminds me a bit of the (Canadian Sprinter) Ben Johnson fiasco. Doped up out of his mind, cheats, just as IA cheated in ramming that madness of a Mgmnt Contract & Lease Agreement home, get caught, scream innocence, everyone elses fault of course... busted... disgraced... try & make a comeback (Ben getting his Lifetime Bans lifted, IA with this new arena dealeo) only to get blown away & caught again.... sure hope Tony doesnt wind up living in his Mothers basement as Ben did thereafter, barely making a living, racing against thoroughbreds, harness racers & stock cars at BF Nowhere County Fairs.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

As ASU appears to be the front-runner as an arena 'partner'...

We are getting closer to having a new thread title...

[snip]

Phoenix CXIX: Lots of (College) Try...

OMG this is amazing. The only better and more apt one would be:

Phoenix CXIX: We're Just Not Executing

 

[TheLegend]

... be careful with this ongoing prognostication of yours my friend. never underestimate the stupidity of the political & institutional classes, of ego driven commercial real estate speculators & investors. I agree it all seems little more than a grand facade, LeBlanc trivializing the issue of signing an extension when asked about it; pivoting, re-directing the subject matter at hand to the new arena project but still. Pretty elaborate cover if none of its "real", designed only to avoid a lame duck season. I dont think its all an illusion, though I do believe Anthony LeBlanc & others involved do suffer mightily from delusions of grandeur. The lot of them, trying to punch a hole in the sky & way out of their Weight Class. Hubris only takes one so far in life. Either perform or you hit the canvas and I dont mean just getting knocked down, get back up & keep slugging. I mean your out cold. Thats what happens when you lack the disposition, character & imagination, training & experience. Done. These guys never should have been put in the Ring by the NHL in the first place. Practically criminal. Talk about a Circus. All reminds me a bit of the (Canadian Sprinter) Ben Johnson fiasco. Doped up out of his mind, cheats, just as IA cheated in ramming that madness of a Mgmnt Contract & Lease Agreement home, get caught, scream innocence, everyone elses fault of course... busted... disgraced... try & make a comeback (Ben getting his Lifetime Bans lifted, IA with this new arena dealeo) only to get blown away & caught again.... sure hope Tony doesnt wind up living in his Mothers basement as Ben did thereafter, barely making a living, racing against thoroughbreds, harness racers & stock cars at BF Nowhere County Fairs.

When you've been beating the same drum for over 7 years, the melody just gets so embedded within you so much you can't think of any other tune. 25 years from now the Coyotes could leave Arizona and you'll hear "SEE!!!! I told you it wouldn't work!!!!"

BTW... Ben Johnson still claims he can outrun Usain Bolt.

 

[TheLegend]

OMG this is amazing. The only better and more apt one would be:

Phoenix CXIX: We're Just Not Executing

I like it too..... it's perfect.


http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2149505