Phoenix CV: CoG went full-on haboob, man. Never go full-on haboob.

[Fugu]

It's to get the good 'ole Canadian lumberjack crowd to come on down

It's nice to see a join date in this thread that pre-dates mine. Was starting to feel like a relic.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

It's nice to see a join date in this thread that pre-dates mine. Was starting to feel like a relic.

This thread brings out the old accounts.

 

[BattleBorn]

Yes, to the part in bold. Definitely.

I guess I'm not accustomed to thinking about sports teams as one would treat traveling acts, or as it's flipped in Vegas. The traditional model builds a local fan base and tries to get an emotional investment from fans. They become married to their team, and until death do they part-- or I guess if they move away, they divorce the old team over time and latch on to the new one.

This model just wants to put butts in the seats, and grabs somewhat indiscriminately from the circulating masses in the general vicinity. The transients looking for some form of entertainment. I have to wonder if it works, and if the home team will ever feel at home.

I've got the feeling that if it does happen to pass that Vegas really starts courting visiting fans to fill the arena that it will be a major reason the team will have what I believe will be an extremely team-friendly lease in the arena. The arena exists to provide bodies into the area and not necessarily provide a major income producer for the owners.

This isn't Glendale building an arena and someone putting Westgate up to capitalize, this is a major Westgate already open and putting an arena up to build even more visitors to the area.

I really don't see a major issue with visiting fans as it is now. A few years of crap hockey and STH numbers dwindling? Perhaps it will turn into an issue. Starting off with 77% of the place filled with local Las Vegas fans from day one prior to even selling a single single game ticket, heck without even having a team goes a long way to making me feel comfortable with the home environment if Foley/MGM/LVCVA start trying to get 1,000-1,500 visiting fans in the barn every game.

ETA: This likely belongs in the other thread. Sometimes I forget where I am.

 

[Whileee]

I think this is spot on. Those of us who love the sport, regardless of how we became fans, can all agree that these aspects are what keep us as fans too.

Man, it's been so long. What was the reason JR backed away after the bankruptcy was settled? I seem to recall his bid was $75 MM and some support from COG, which they seemed willing to consider at the time. I thought there might have been some other legal or business consideration, but can't recall what off the top of my head.

His bid (and Ice Edge's at the time) relied on a completely unfeasible stream of revenue (about $25 million per year, as I recall) from a "Community Facilities District" (CFD) anchored around the Westgate Center. The idea was that the businesses in Westgate (all 20 or so of them) would be willing to cough up the equivalent of over $1 million a year in special levies to support their lifeblood, the Coyotes hockey team. That fanciful notion was quickly seen as being ridiculous from a business perspective, and probably illegal under Arizona's gift law.

 

[Fugu]

His bid (and Ice Edge's at the time) relied on a completely unfeasible stream of revenue (about $25 million per year, as I recall) from a "Community Facilities District" (CFD) anchored around the Westgate Center. The idea was that the businesses in Westgate (all 20 or so of them) would be willing to cough up the equivalent of over $1 million a year in special levies to support their lifeblood, the Coyotes hockey team. That fanciful notion was quickly seen as being ridiculous from a business perspective, and probably illegal under Arizona's gift law.

Ah, yes, that sounds right. I think it was a question of legality.

I guess the Ice_____ were the last guys standing, and really, the last ones anyone took seriously.

 

[awfulwaffle]

His bid (and Ice Edge's at the time) relied on a completely unfeasible stream of revenue (about $25 million per year, as I recall) from a "Community Facilities District" (CFD) anchored around the Westgate Center. The idea was that the businesses in Westgate (all 20 or so of them) would be willing to cough up the equivalent of over $1 million a year in special levies to support their lifeblood, the Coyotes hockey team. That fanciful notion was quickly seen as being ridiculous from a business perspective, and probably illegal under Arizona's gift law.

So you are basically saying the business owners of the businesses in Westgate are smarter than the elected officials of Glendale.

Make no mistake, the elected officials of Glendale have no win here. They are stuck with the arena they have, they are stuck with Camelback Ranch. They have problems they can't really fix.

But it was a big sign that the businesses of Westgate came out against the city council when they voted to cancel the agreement. This is a huge mess, and I haven't followed it for a while. In the end, hockey is still in Arizona. That's all that matters to me as a Coyotes fan. I couldn't care less about Glendale and their taxpayers. It's the great thing about this country, if you aren't happy, you can vote for someone else. If you don't like the city you live in, you can sell your home and move somewhere else.

It's like the 303 highway being constructed here. Many people knew it might happen, and it's going to happen and their houses are going to be removed for it. If you were a citizen of Glendale long before the arena was built, I'm sorry. But if you moved there after the fact with a little research, I have no sympathy.

It's up to the Glendale City Council to provide police and fire based on the budget allowed. And if what was said is true, that the Coyotes are only 2% of the budget, well god forbid you couldn't find something else to cut back on. Maybe you should have charged for your 15 minute firework show.

 

[OthmarAmmann]

It's up to the Glendale City Council to provide police and fire based on the budget allowed. And if what was said is true, that the Coyotes are only 2% of the budget, well god forbid you couldn't find something else to cut back on. Maybe you should have charged for your 15 minute firework show.

One of the shortcomings of this country is that it needs individuals to be educated about the issues and to be willing to do some fact checking.

Here's the budget website: http://www.glendaleaz.com/2014Budget/index.cfm

I submit the the 2% figure, while not necessarily false, is disingenuous as it includes the enterprise funds in the denominator.

Or is whoever came up with that ratio saying it would be appropriate to add a hockey surcharge to everyone's water bill?

 

[GF]

In the end, hockey is still in Arizona. That's all that matters to me as a Coyotes fan. I couldn't care less about Glendale and their taxpayers.

That's exactly why the CoG has gone full-on Haboob. The elected officials have decided it's time to care about Glendale taxpayers. And in the end, there won't be hockey in Arizona.

 

[awfulwaffle]

That's exactly why the CoG has gone full-on Haboob. The elected officials have decided it's time to care about Glendale taxpayers. And in the end, there won't be hockey in Arizona.

That remains to be seen.

 

[Fugu]

That remains to be seen.

I've certainly learned not to count the Coyotes as dead. The team should have had a cat name simply because they seem to have at least nine lives.

 

[Whileee]

So you are basically saying the business owners of the businesses in Westgate are smarter than the elected officials of Glendale.

Make no mistake, the elected officials of Glendale have no win here. They are stuck with the arena they have, they are stuck with Camelback Ranch. They have problems they can't really fix.

But it was a big sign that the businesses of Westgate came out against the city council when they voted to cancel the agreement. This is a huge mess, and I haven't followed it for a while. In the end, hockey is still in Arizona. That's all that matters to me as a Coyotes fan. I couldn't care less about Glendale and their taxpayers. It's the great thing about this country, if you aren't happy, you can vote for someone else. If you don't like the city you live in, you can sell your home and move somewhere else.

It's like the 303 highway being constructed here. Many people knew it might happen, and it's going to happen and their houses are going to be removed for it. If you were a citizen of Glendale long before the arena was built, I'm sorry. But if you moved there after the fact with a little research, I have no sympathy.

It's up to the Glendale City Council to provide police and fire based on the budget allowed. And if what was said is true, that the Coyotes are only 2% of the budget, well god forbid you couldn't find something else to cut back on. Maybe you should have charged for your 15 minute firework show.

Fair enough.

The issue with the original CFD was that the expectation that Westgate Center businesses would actually put substantial money on the table to keep the Coyotes turned out to be a pipe dream. Sure, they want the Coyotes to stay, but they don't want to cover the costs to subsidize them. That's why it's left up to the City of Glendale.

My perspective is that the deal to keep the Coyotes in Glendale is a house of cards. It's been good for the fans in that it kept them there in the short term. But I think that unless the NHL is able to get a more serious and stable ownership group in place, it's going to end up disappointing Coyotes fans through relocation within the next few years (ironically, just when they might be resurgent as a team). In the meantime, it's going to cost Glendale a bunch of money that they can't afford, and the politicians the embarrassment of pouring money into subsidizing a team that ends up leaving anyway.

I could be wrong, but I don't think so. I think that fans should put a bit more of their concern and focus on the ownership group and the NHL, because they don't have a viable business plan to sustain the team in Glendale, with or without Glendale's subsidy.

 

[Killion]

I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

No, unfortunately I believe your quite right about this Whileee, this whole situation (which could have been avoided) nothing short of a Black-Op PR job were watching being perpetrated here by the NHL. That wasnt a "real sale" in 2013, IA nothing but a front. The NHL buying itself (covertly) another 5yrs to try & sort this mess out. I guess one could accuse me of being a Tinfoil Man but c'mon here, walks & talks like a Duck.... its a Duck. I havent seen a damn thing that refutes this theory & overwhelming evidence to the contrary that to me gives it credence, 110% plausibility, legs, air to breathe.

 

[Whileee]

No, unfortunately I believe your quite right about this Whileee, this whole situation (which could have been avoided) nothing short of a Black-Op PR job were watching being perpetrated here by the NHL. That wasnt a "real sale" in 2013, IA nothing but a front. The NHL buying itself (covertly) another 5yrs to try & sort this mess out. I guess one could accuse me of being a Tinfoil Man but c'mon here, walks & talks like a Duck.... its a Duck. I havent seen a damn thing that refutes this theory & overwhelming evidence to the contrary that to me gives it credence, 110% plausibility, legs, air to breathe.

Yup. It wasn't a sale, it was a debt restructuring plan. The CoG's AMF is a big part of that, along with the NHL's $85 million LOC. I don't see any real signs that they are close to profitability. Meanwhile, who's going to pay the debt after 5 years when the NHL's LOC comes due?

Unfortunately, I think that Coyotes' fans were destined to find out that this has all been a big sham. The CoG is just trying to cut their losses now. It might give LeBlanc and the NHL some PR cover to get out of town a bit early, even though Glendale tried to find a time when IA and the NHL might be more inclined to renegotiate a lease agreement.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

That's exactly why the CoG has gone full-on Haboob. The elected officials have decided it's time to care about Glendale taxpayers.

And Glendale businesses don't pay taxes. Got it. They've decided to try to rob Peter to pay Paul, then?

(Glendale *voters*, maybe...which makes more sense, given they're politicians, and not particularly good ones)

And in the end, there won't be hockey in Arizona.

Gotta love the confidence in that statement. And yet, here we still are.

 

[TheLegend]

His bid (and Ice Edge's at the time) relied on a completely unfeasible stream of revenue (about $25 million per year, as I recall) from a "Community Facilities District" (CFD) anchored around the Westgate Center. The idea was that the businesses in Westgate (all 20 or so of them) would be willing to cough up the equivalent of over $1 million a year in special levies to support their lifeblood, the Coyotes hockey team. That fanciful notion was quickly seen as being ridiculous from a business perspective, and probably illegal under Arizona's gift law.

Ah, yes, that sounds right. I think it was a question of legality.

I guess the Ice_____ were the last guys standing, and really, the last ones anyone took seriously.

Reinsdorf also had a clause in his agreement that he could sell out and regain 100% his money back after five years. Glendale retained the right to approve the new owner.

But that deal was the second post BK bid for Reinsdorf. His initial bid in BK was $138M and still had to work out a lease. They almost had it worked out (the CFD etc..) until Moyes' attorneys leaked it to the media.

The NHL and Reinsdorf had something else worked out prior to the BK, but we don't know what that involved. IIRC the NHL felt they had control of the franchise at that point, and were going to settle with Moyes at a set price from the league. But Moyes was convinced by Balsillie's front man (Richard Rodier) he could get more money from a BK.

And the rest.... along with some 150 threads.... is history.

 

[TheLegend]

That's exactly why the CoG has gone full-on Haboob. The elected officials have decided it's time to care about Glendale taxpayers. And in the end, there won't be hockey in Arizona.

So that must mean ASU's NCAA D1 program, UofA's ACHA program, NAU's ACHA D2 and D3 programs, the dozens of high schools, and all the youth programs along with the 11 sheets of ice in AZ will just suddenly disappear??

 

[GF]

The NHL model doesn't work in many places and especially Arizona.

That team has been saved in the nick of time many times. But I don't believe they are special for surviving like they did. The money has stopped flowing and now we'll see what happens when there is no public money invested as a disguised subsidy. I still think they are not saved for 15-16. And even if they are, 16-17 doesn't look much better.
MOD

Still a forthnight away from the court hearings. I still can't believe the NHL will allow the clowns to go there. But you never know.

This guy seems to agree...
Relocation rumor returns to Coyotes franchise

 

[JimAnchower]

This guy seems to agree...
Relocation rumor returns to Coyotes franchise

What Jackson says is pretty much what others here have said regarding the Coyotes to Vegas rumor, so there isn't a lot to add there. Only new information was this:

Sources I have talked to at NHL headquarters in New York have said the team was granted a negotiating period with numerous cities about relocation after the City of Glendale canceled the arena lease agreement with the team.
According to my sources, no city made an official offer to the Coyotes, the schedule was released, and the team is here for 2015-16.

If true, what would have scared the other cities off? Some, like Vegas, may not want a team yet because they don't have a suitable arena right now. It's also possible that the NHL only allowed IA to talk to other Western cities because the schedule was at an advanced stage, which would take out Toronto 2 and Quebec. I suppose it is possible some cities may view expansion to be preferable to re-location. And the final possibility is IA didn't want to sell, only to move and keep the team for themselves. Are there any other possibilities, assuming it is true?

 

[Fugu]

It would be cheaper to buy the Coyotes than go the expansion route.

 

[GuelphStormer]

What Jackson says is pretty much what others here have said regarding the Coyotes to Vegas rumor, so there isn't a lot to add there. Only new information was this:



If true, what would have scared the other cities off? Some, like Vegas, may not want a team yet because they don't have a suitable arena right now. It's also possible that the NHL only allowed IA to talk to other Western cities because the schedule was at an advanced stage, which would take out Toronto 2 and Quebec. I suppose it is possible some cities may view expansion to be preferable to re-location. And the final possibility is IA didn't want to sell, only to move and keep the team for themselves. Are there any other possibilities, assuming it is true?

leblanc has always seemed rather disingenuous and unrealistic when it comes to most things, so it would not shock me if he was asking a billion dollars and a spaceship to the moon. the league itself would have been more realistic. buyers may have been scared away by leblanc himself. maybe he wants to stay on board. shudder.

i can also appreciate that a new owner - with a good shot at expansion (ie., vegas, quebec) - might not want to buy such a brand/image-tainted team - and in the cellar, ta boot - and would rather buy a shiny new expansion team and make it their own.

it's a select market of locations/buyers who might want this team right now (just hamilton and portland perhaps)

 

[robertocarlos]

And Glendale businesses don't pay taxes. Got it. They've decided to try to rob Peter to pay Paul, then?

(Glendale *voters*, maybe...which makes more sense, given they're politicians, and not particularly good ones)



Gotta love the confidence in that statement. And yet, here we still are.

Isn't there a big finance system out there named PayPaul?

 

[aqib]

It would be cheaper to buy the Coyotes than go the expansion route.

Whatever the difference is I am sure the NHL will charge a relo fee in that exact amount. The difference is the Coyotes do have some good prospects which would shorten the time for the team to get good.

 

[MNNumbers]

Whatever the difference is I am sure the NHL will charge a relo fee in that exact amount. The difference is the Coyotes do have some good prospects which would shorten the time for the team to get good.

I tend to agree with this. Which leaves me baffled in a way, because I can't imagine Quebec turning down a team.

 

[aqib]

How did we miss this last year:

http://www.foxsports.com/arizona/st...epping-back-from-day-to-day-operations-080414

How many owners have "stepped back" or "stepped aside" over the last couple of years.

 

[Killion]

How did we miss this last year:

We didnt miss that aqib, it was discussed here. He was a minor player, bit part with a
fancy title. Essentially though like all of them, a Caretaker. Tourist. Just passin through.