Phoenix CV: CoG went full-on haboob, man. Never go full-on haboob.

[cobra427]

Actually, that's for a judge to decide. Or the parties by way of settlement. Obviously a settlement would be quite a reversal for the party that said this whole thing was going to be laughed out of court. That was the Coyotes and there don't seem to be many LOLs coming from TeamTony now, do there?



Generally speaking, sure. But this isn't generally, this is a specific case and here's the so what: LeBlanc is an ineffective CEO and he hired Tindall and Frisoni quite possibly in violation of a law that would allow the entire agreement to be cancelled. That type of sheer stupidity is a bit out of the ordinary. At least it is to me. It's very funny to watch though.

Sure, it is for a judge to decide, and anything can happen, but the COG chances are slim and none, I would give it 10 to 1 odds.

LeBlanc's effectiveness as a CEO is immaterial to this case. Hiring somebody from a municipality you worked with is nothing new, happens all the time in business. The COG has no evidence to support any claim of wrong doing by the parties.

 

[Govment Cheese]

If true, what would have scared the other cities off? Some, like Vegas, may not want a team yet because they don't have a suitable arena right now. It's also possible that the NHL only allowed IA to talk to other Western cities because the schedule was at an advanced stage, which would take out Toronto 2 and Quebec. I suppose it is possible some cities may view expansion to be preferable to re-location. And the final possibility is IA didn't want to sell, only to move and keep the team for themselves. Are there any other possibilities, assuming it is true?

+1
Or at a minimum be co-owners in the new location. Which i don't see happening, any owner that has deep enough pockets (300M +++) to buy the team is not going to want the Ice Clowns tagging along.

 

[TheLegend]

How did we miss this last year:

http://www.foxsports.com/arizona/st...epping-back-from-day-to-day-operations-080414

How many owners have "stepped back" or "stepped aside" over the last couple of years.

We didnt miss that aqib, it was discussed here. He was a minor player, bit part with a
fancy title. Essentially though like all of them, a Caretaker. Tourist. Just passin through.

This is in reference to Avik Dey?

Yep.... in for a small percentage. But was the spreadsheet guru who outlined their business plan and helped get it going. AFAIK... they're still following that plan.

 

[Killion]

This is in reference to Avik Dey?... the spreadsheet guru who outlined their business plan and helped get it going.

Thats right TL, IceArizona's version of Meyer Lansky.... though GRA aint the
Pink Flamingo & this aint Nevada. Still though, $225M large, quite the payoff.

 

[TheLegend]

The NHL model doesn't work in many places and especially Arizona.

That team has been saved in the nick of time many times. But I don't believe they are special for surviving like they did. The money has stopped flowing and now we'll see what happens when there is no public money invested as a disguised subsidy. I still think they are not saved for 15-16. And even if they are, 16-17 doesn't look much better.
MOD

Still a forthnight away from the court hearings. I still can't believe the NHL will allow the clowns to go there. But you never know.

This guy seems to agree...
Relocation rumor returns to Coyotes franchise

Believe it or not there are a few people here who disagree with that.

But you can continue to dig up and throw out as many biased opinions as you like.

Thats right TL, IceArizona's version of Meyer Lansky.... though GRA aint the
Pink Flamingo & this aint Nevada. Still though, $225M large, quite the payoff.

You've been watching that series too, eh?

$225M LESS the costs they put into the arena. Let's not forget that is what we're discussing.

 

[Killion]

You've been watching that series too, eh?

$225M LESS the costs they put into the arena. Let's not forget that is what we're discussing.

Who's "they"? Glendale? I sure hope your not trying to suggest IA has sunk a tonne of money into GRA. You kiddin? COG even covered the costs of wall-wall broadloom in the executive suites when they moved in; got dinged for office furnishings etc for Global-Spectrum as well. IA needs money,
they go to New York. Just like Meyer & Bugsy did back in the... dey.

 

[aqib]

Sure, it is for a judge to decide, and anything can happen, but the COG chances are slim and none, I would give it 10 to 1 odds.

LeBlanc's effectiveness as a CEO is immaterial to this case. Hiring somebody from a municipality you worked with is nothing new, happens all the time in business. The COG has no evidence to support any claim of wrong doing by the parties.

Based on what? Reading through the emails that Glendale disclosed its pretty obvious but Tindall and Julie whats-her-name were involved in the deal between IA and COG. The only question for the judge to decide is whether their involvement was "significant" or not.

 

[wpgallday1960]

Sure, it is for a judge to decide, and anything can happen, but the COG chances are slim and none, I would give it 10 to 1 odds.

LeBlanc's effectiveness as a CEO is immaterial to this case. Hiring somebody from a municipality you worked with is nothing new, happens all the time in business. The COG has no evidence to support any claim of wrong doing by the parties.

You do realize the COG does not have to prove wrong doing, only that Tindall and Frison were significantly involved in drafting of the current contract. I don't know what the ultimate decision will be but I don't think it's a slam dunk either way.

 

[goyotes]

Sure, it is for a judge to decide, and anything can happen, but the COG chances are slim and none, I would give it 10 to 1 odds.

LeBlanc's effectiveness as a CEO is immaterial to this case. Hiring somebody from a municipality you worked with is nothing new, happens all the time in business. The COG has no evidence to support any claim of wrong doing by the parties.

I am on record as saying I'm not enthused by the City's case, but even I acknowledge the City has some evidence to state its position.

CF has done a good job of going through the issue. The res. and ord. redrafted by Tindall is enough for me to pause before dismissing the City's position. I detest it on principal, but I acknowledge there is at least some "there" there.

 

[GF]

Believe it or not there are a few people here who disagree with that.

But you can continue to dig up and throw out as many biased opinions as you like.

People can believe what they want. It's been reported on BOH that 1/3rd are making money, 1/3rd are breaking even and 1/3rd are losing money. If that ain't a broken model what is?

Between the BK and NHL ownership and the never ending line of wanna be owners in Arizona, hidden subsidies, Goldwater institute, 100m$ parking lots and cupcakes summit, you're certainly welcome to think that NHL hockey is striving in Arizona. I'm not even mentionning the numerous empty seats and well below average ticket prices

I'm just here for the fireworks and it seems they begin july 31st.

 

[tsanuri]

People can believe what they want. It's been reported on BOH that 1/3rd are making money, 1/3rd are breaking even and 1/3rd are losing money. If that ain't a broken model what is?

Between the BK and NHL ownership and the never ending line of wanna be owners in Arizona, hidden subsidies, Goldwater institute, 100m$ parking lots and cupcakes summit, you're certainly welcome to think that NHL hockey is striving in Arizona. I'm not even mentionning the numerous empty seats and well below average ticket prices

I'm just here for the fireworks and it seems they begin july 31st.

And in part of that third resides Chicago who is taking money from the left hand to pay the right and claiming a loss. And this is just one of the well known ones. I suspect there are others. That they allow the NHL team to lose money, on paper, to make money elsewhere in their group.

 

[TheLegend]

Who's "they"? Glendale? I sure hope your not trying to suggest IA has sunk a tonne of money into GRA. You kiddin? COG even covered the costs of wall-wall broadloom in the executive suites when they moved in; got dinged for office furnishings etc for Global-Spectrum as well. IA needs money,
they go to New York. Just like Meyer & Bugsy did back in the... dey.

Nope... just saying you can't ignore that there are costs associated with operating the arena that are coming out of that $225M. Doesn't matter who operates it.

Any overages that are helping cover the cost of operating the Coyotes franchise itself are definitely subject to debate. So are the additional capital costs.

But for anyone to simply imply the $225M is going directly into Anthony LeBlanc's piggy bank (which is what many people do) is flat misleading.

People can believe what they want. It's been reported on BOH that 1/3rd are making money, 1/3rd are breaking even and 1/3rd are losing money. If that ain't a broken model what is?

Between the BK and NHL ownership and the never ending line of wanna be owners in Arizona, hidden subsidies, Goldwater institute, 100m$ parking lots and cupcakes summit, you're certainly welcome to think that NHL hockey is striving in Arizona. I'm not even mentionning the numerous empty seats and well below average ticket prices

I'm just here for the fireworks and it seems they begin july 31st.

It's also been reported on BoH that the NHL is making more money than ever. So then maybe it really isn't the model that's broken, but something else?

So glad you're hanging around for the show.

 

[enarwpg]

There's some debate as to whether or not this is the case:

http://nebulousverbosity.com/blog/moodys-glendale-upgrade/

When one speaks to the " naive and easily distracted* " it doesn't really matter if what is said is unbiased. .

*forgive them father for they prefer to ignore the plain and simple facts

 

[Whileee]

What Jackson says is pretty much what others here have said regarding the Coyotes to Vegas rumor, so there isn't a lot to add there. Only new information was this:

If true, what would have scared the other cities off? Some, like Vegas, may not want a team yet because they don't have a suitable arena right now. It's also possible that the NHL only allowed IA to talk to other Western cities because the schedule was at an advanced stage, which would take out Toronto 2 and Quebec. I suppose it is possible some cities may view expansion to be preferable to re-location. And the final possibility is IA didn't want to sell, only to move and keep the team for themselves. Are there any other possibilities, assuming it is true?

If the past is any guide, IA was looking for a city that is willing to give them a big subsidy like Glendale. All the other cities kept their hands on their wallets and IA realized that nobody will extend them the same sweet deal that Glendale does, even with some renegotiation.

 

[enarwpg]

TL, I respect you as a fan and fair-minded commentator*. Really, I don't have a beef against Phoenix fans. I just think that you are giving LeBlanc and the NHL way too much credit. Unless they get a real owner with a real plan, this isn't going to work in Glendale. It just isn't. I make fun of LeBlanc because I think he deserves it, and I'm surprised that more Coyotes' fans haven't seen through his act.

Next time you or another fan sees him, look him in the eye and ask him if he'd be prepared to waive the "out clause" as a positive gesture to the fans and other supporters.

* so true.....

I'm sure fans have figured it out by now but I'm thinking they're afraid of speaking up for fear LeBlanc will take it as an affront to his arena and hockey team management / marketing skills and grab his puck and head home to Thunder Bay.....

 

[cobra427]

Based on what? Reading through the emails that Glendale disclosed its pretty obvious but Tindall and Julie whats-her-name were involved in the deal between IA and COG. The only question for the judge to decide is whether their involvement was "significant" or not.

The COG is trying to claim "form" and its a big stretch to even claim that, over substance. They don't have either and they might need both to prevail.

 

[aqib]

The COG is trying to claim "form" and its a big stretch to even claim that, over substance. They don't have either and they might need both to prevail.

I am not a lawyer. However, from what I've read so far they don't even have to claim anything unethical occurred. All they have to show is someone who played a significant role in making the deal now worked with the Coyotes. Tindall and Julie do work with the Coyotes. That is not in dispute. They did work on the deal that is also not in dispute. The only question is, is if that work is significant or not. If the judge finds that it was significant than Glendale had a right to void it. If she finds its not then they don't.

 

[SunDancer]

When one speaks to the " naive and easily distracted* " it doesn't really matter if what is said is unbiased. .

*forgive them father for they prefer to ignore the plain and simple facts

I was just pointing out that it seems the cancellation of the arena deal was not reflected in Glendale's latest credit rating. Minor point ... especially since Moody's later commented positively on the cancelled contract and would presumably further upgrade the city's rating.

I am on record as saying I'm not enthused by the City's case, but even I acknowledge the City has some evidence to state its position.

CF has done a good job of going through the issue. The res. and ord. redrafted by Tindall is enough for me to pause before dismissing the City's position. I detest it on principal, but I acknowledge there is at least some "there" there.

If you acknowledge there is something to their case, on what principal do you detest it? Hypothetically, if you feel something was poorly established by your predecessor, would you not take advantage of any tools available to rectify the situation. I would think that approach would apply in any profession.

 

[SunDancer]

What Jackson says is pretty much what others here have said regarding the Coyotes to Vegas rumor, so there isn't a lot to add there. Only new information was this:

Sources I have talked to at NHL headquarters in New York have said the team was granted a negotiating period with numerous cities about relocation after the City of Glendale canceled the arena lease agreement with the team.
According to my sources, no city made an official offer to the Coyotes, the schedule was released, and the team is here for 2015-16.

If true, what would have scared the other cities off? Some, like Vegas, may not want a team yet because they don't have a suitable arena right now. It's also possible that the NHL only allowed IA to talk to other Western cities because the schedule was at an advanced stage, which would take out Toronto 2 and Quebec. I suppose it is possible some cities may view expansion to be preferable to re-location. And the final possibility is IA didn't want to sell, only to move and keep the team for themselves. Are there any other possibilities, assuming it is true?

When they say "the team" here, I wonder who exactly that means? Was Barroway still leading the charge at that point or had he already been marginalized? Or did this negotiating period lead to that reported "philosophical difference in the financial direction of the team"?

 

[TheLegend]

I was just pointing out that it seems the cancellation of the arena deal was not reflected in Glendale's latest credit rating. Minor poin/t ... especially since Moody's later commented positively on the cancelled contract and would presumably further upgrade the city's rating.

There's some speculation that Moody's was tipped off to
Glendale's intentions prior to the them actually taking action. The coincidences are just too close to ignore. And Moody's only gets one side of the whole story.

As I've stated earlier, where is Moody's going to be if Glendale loses their bid to cancel the lease agreement??? Plus there's this other pending $200M lawsuit they currently face over a waste reclamation contract they decided they didn't like. An arbitrator has already ruled against the city over a portion of the contract that was in dispute, yet the city seems hell bent on ignoring it.

If you acknowledge there is something to their case, on what principal do you detest it? Hypothetically, if you feel something was poorly established by your predecessor, would you not take advantage of any tools available to rectify the situation. I would think that approach would apply in any profession.

It doesn't make you look like a willing partner when entering into future contracts. What company is going to be willing to enter into any long-term deal with the city if they become historically prone to "changing their mind" about the terms in the middle of it??

 

[SunDancer]

There's some speculation that Moody's was tipped off to
Glendale's intentions prior to the them actually taking action. The coincidences are just too close to ignore. And Moody's only gets one side of the whole story.

As I've stated earlier, where is Moody's going to be if Glendale loses their bid to cancel the lease agreement??? Plus there's this other pending $200M lawsuit they currently face over a waste reclamation contract they decided they didn't like. An arbitrator has already ruled against the city over a portion of the contract that was in dispute, yet the city seems hell bent on ignoring it.



It doesn't make you look like a willing partner when entering into future contracts. What company is going to be willing to enter into any long-term deal with the city if they become historically prone to "changing their mind" about the terms in the middle of it??

Certainly no company looking for a lopsided deal negotiated under suspicious circumstances.

 

[Glacial]

Just pure brainstorming why the Coyotes might have gotten no bids in this 2 week window they were hearing offers:

1.) Their asking price was simply too high. We have to remember this was the window LeBlanc was boasting about how terrible Glendale's case was and his attorney was ridiculing the education of Glendale's lawyer. He might've given a price more suitable to the Blackhawks, Rangers, or Canadiens rather than the Coyotes, Panthers, or Thrashers.

2.) As others noted, maybe LeBlanc wanted to maintain a significant stake in the team. He himself might've been the dealbreaker.

3.) As others noted, maybe the NHL barred certain cities from bidding (like Western half of the continent only).

4.) Maybe the NHL imposed a condition, like a city's ownership group can only submit an expansion bid or a Coyotes bid but not both.

5.) Some combination of the above.

 

[Major4Boarding]

Plus there's this other pending $200M lawsuit they currently face over a waste reclamation contract they decided they didn't like. An arbitrator has already ruled against the city over a portion of the contract that was in dispute, yet the city seems hell bent on ignoring it.

I'm skipping the Moody's part on purpose

Truth be told, I can see a far better resolution to the Vieste (Good Ol' Michael Reinsdorf) issue than the other issues at hand. I would hope that if the City sees that a minimal impact to the City (including the other estimated $561K), through all the loops in reciprocations, is better if the final ruling goes Vieste's way. If it gets to a final arbitration ruling.

For those scoring at home, the issue is whether yard waste is acceptable waste under the Phase One portion of processing (Agreement). Vieste says that its not, Glendale says it is (under the AZ Admin Code - Biogas Electricity Generator - Which is Phase II, if I recall correctly). Because it is "not", after the aforementioned arbitrator's ruling as it pertains to Phase One, from 2.4.2 of the Agreement

2.4.2 Operator shall have an opportunity to inspect each delivery of Waste at the Site at the time of each delivery. If Operator desires to reject entire loads of Waste for failure to meet the Specifications, it must do so promptly upon delivery of the Waste at the Waste Delivery Point, and, upon such rejection, City shall be responsible for returning the rejected Waste to the Landfill at its expense.

It appears Vieste is willing to accept yard waste for Phase Two as long as the City is willing to take a cut in the construction reciprocations.

Anyway, the point of this exercise is although its another issue at hand and another attempt by current Council regarding Agreement interpretations, I would be cautious to introduce this whole Vieste thing as another elephant in the room.

 

[CasualFan]

Sure, it is for a judge to decide, and anything can happen, but the COG chances are slim and none, I would give it 10 to 1 odds.

LeBlanc's effectiveness as a CEO is immaterial to this case. Hiring somebody from a municipality you worked with is nothing new, happens all the time in business. The COG has no evidence to support any claim of wrong doing by the parties.

The 'hiring somebody from a municipality happens all the time' seems anecdotal at best but who am I to argue. Regardless, with odds like that it doesnt sound like you think there will be any settlement or successor/renegotiated agreement? The city has slim and none so why would the Coyotes give anything on this, right? Team just has to show up and present the same solid argument that you posted here.

I detest it on principal, but I acknowledge there is at least some "there" there.

I'm not sure there the OP has any legitimate interest in the merits of the case.

What company is going to be willing to enter into any long-term deal with the city if they become historically prone to "changing their mind" about the terms in the middle of it??

I've seen this concept a few times now and it seems very flawed. It ignores the vendors actions completely. It's not like Glendale woke up on June 10th and just randomly decided to cancel a contract because they didn't like it. The Coyotes hired Tindall. Tindall has some very questionable involvement in the securing of the contract. There is an appearance of a 38-511 violation. To even suggest the council action on the lease would somehow create a climate of uncertainty in any other procurement sounds like the kind of stupidity probably best reserved for a Beavis Blog. The message the city is sending sounds a lot more like "if you sign an agreement with the city, everything will be fine as long as you don't do ignorant and unethical things that amount to a violation of state law."

 

[Killion]

Nope... just saying you can't ignore that there are costs associated with operating the arena that are coming out of that $225M. Doesn't matter who operates it.... But for anyone to simply imply the $225M is going directly into Anthony LeBlanc's piggy bank (which is what many people do) is flat misleading.

Good grief TL, no one around here is suggesting that & if they ever did? Be come down on hard... splattered all over the sidewalk after a Steinway Concert Grand Piano lands on them dropped from a serious height. In fact as we well know, those payments were going directly to FIG until 6 months or so ago and I rather doubt they were returning any of it to IA. That $3.75M being paid by Glendale is spent before they even get it with debt service fee's to this very day, and whatever is left over, well, Id hate to be receiving electrical bills from APS for GRA huh? Or water. Desert climate for Gods sake. Those are fixed costs. Heavy. Then theres all the rest of it, maintenance & so on & so forth. No one here is suggesting these funds are being funneled to untraceable off-shore accounts or used for any nefarious purposes so lets just clear that up huh?