Phoenix CV: CoG went full-on haboob, man. Never go full-on haboob.

[CrypTic]

The COG is trying to claim "form" and its a big stretch to even claim that, over substance. They don't have either and they might need both to prevail.

I didn't start following this saga until recently so I may be missing a lot of context but I don't understand what you are saying here. Are you suggesting that the Section 38-511 violation that seems to be the basis for CoG's claim was not a substantive violation? If so, what is your basis for that? If not, can you clarify what you mean?

I want the Coyotes to stay in Arizona but, based mostly on what I've read here, I can't root for IA. I'm trying to understand the position of ppl who are supporting them. I apologize for the intrusion to those of you who follow this saga much more closely than I do.

 

[cobra427]

The 'hiring somebody from a municipality happens all the time' seems anecdotal at best but who am I to argue. Regardless, with odds like that it doesnt sound like you think there will be any settlement or successor/renegotiated agreement? The city has slim and none so why would the Coyotes give anything on this, right? Team just has to show up and present the same solid argument that you posted here.



I'm not sure there the OP has any legitimate interest in the merits of the case.



I've seen this concept a few times now and it seems very flawed. It ignores the vendors actions completely. It's not like Glendale woke up on June 10th and just randomly decided to cancel a contract because they didn't like it. The Coyotes hired Tindall. Tindall has some very questionable involvement in the securing of the contract. There is an appearance of a 38-511 violation. To even suggest the council action on the lease would somehow create a climate of uncertainty in any other procurement sounds like the kind of stupidity probably best reserved for a Beavis Blog. The message the city is sending sounds a lot more like "if you sign an agreement with the city, everything will be fine as long as you don't do ignorant and unethical things that amount to a violation of state law."

The Coyotes won't settle because they fear losing this case. They might settle because the economic impact of a settlement might be better in the long run for the coyotes because of the impact on their business from this dispute. Being in the middle of disputes, even frivolous ones like this one, is never good for business or perception. I doubt the Coyotes settle, but if they do, it will be a minor change to the agreement in order to put this behind them and for the COG to save some face. Maybe that is the goal of the new members of the COG anyway to get some sort of change to the agreement. I think everyone would be happy then, but it will be window dressing at best.

 

[Killion]

The Coyotes won't settle because they fear losing this case. They might settle because the economic impact of a settlement might be better in the long run for the coyotes because of the impact on their business from this dispute. Being in the middle of disputes, even frivolous ones like this one, is never good for business or perception. I doubt the Coyotes settle, but if they do, it will be a minor change to the agreement in order to put this behind them and for the COG to save some face. Maybe that is the goal of the new members of the COG anyway to get some sort of change to the agreement. I think everyone would be happy then, but it will be window dressing at best.

Entirely possible, yes, very plausible theory in fact. Most disputes of this kind are settled out of court (98% I believe the #). The Coyotes & the NHL could well lose this case despite their earlier posturing, and even if it was a nuisance case/suit/issue you really dont wanna be going down the road & airing all kinds of dirty laundry in public. You dont want the fate of your club and the right of determination & location left to a 3rd party. This is why your hiring $400+ an hour Attorneys. To settle such out of court before you lose complete control. So sure, what your suggesting a very possible outcome. The COG has scheduled a Meeting for this Tuesday (July 14th) which is highly unusual as their on Summer Break. Whats also curious is that IA apparently cancelled the scheduled Disclosures & Depositions which were to take place prior to to the July 31st Court Date last week so could well be some sort of counter-offer has been tabled; or perhaps negotiations initiated that require instruction from the Mayor & Council. Just speculating here of course, but sure....

 

[MNNumbers]

Entirely possible, yes, very plausible theory in fact. Most disputes of this kind are settled out of court (98% I believe the #). The Coyotes & the NHL could well lose this case despite their earlier posturing, and even if it was a nuisance case/suit/issue you really dont wanna be going down the road & airing all kinds of dirty laundry in public. You dont want the fate of your club and the right of determination & location left to a 3rd party. This is why your hiring $400+ an hour Attorneys. To settle such out of court before you lose complete control. So sure, what your suggesting a very possible outcome. The COG has scheduled a Meeting for this Tuesday (July 14th) which is highly unusual as their on Summer Break. Whats also curious is that IA apparently cancelled the scheduled Disclosures & Depositions which were to take place prior to to the July 31st Court Date last week so could well be some sort of counter-offer has been tabled; or perhaps negotiations initiated that require instruction from the Mayor & Council. Just speculating here of course, but sure....

Killion,

This meeting in Glendale you speak of, is this a public meeting? There is executive session scheduled for tomorrow, Monday, I know. Or was that changed?

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

The Coyotes won't settle because they fear losing this case. They might settle because the economic impact of a settlement might be better in the long run for the coyotes because of the impact on their business from this dispute. Being in the middle of disputes, even frivolous ones like this one, is never good for business or perception. I doubt the Coyotes settle, but if they do, it will be a minor change to the agreement in order to put this behind them and for the COG to save some face. Maybe that is the goal of the new members of the COG anyway to get some sort of change to the agreement. I think everyone would be happy then, but it will be window dressing at best.

They should settle just to prevent discovery. Even if there is nothing illegal going on, the court of public opinion could be completely burned if we see behind the scenes of IA, Barroway, Tindall, Fortress and the NHL.

At least that's what I would be telling IA.

 

[Killion]

Killion,

This meeting in Glendale you speak of, is this a public meeting? There is executive session scheduled for tomorrow, Monday, I know. Or was that changed?

Oh, is it tomorrow & not Tuesday? My mistake if so, sorry, but I thought it was Tuesday. And yes, its closed doors, Executive Session.

 

[TheLegend]

Good grief TL, no one around here is suggesting that & if they ever did?

Good grief, K....

How many times have we seen the phrase "$225M subsidy" posted in the context that IA is pocketing all that to fatten the franchise's wallet??

Makes great fodder for those who hate hockey in warm climates but it's a flat out false statement to make.

I'm not debating the fact that IA might be using a portion of that to prime their revenue streams. That's obvious. But good grief old pal... let's put the power painter down.

 

[MNNumbers]

Good grief, K....

How many times have we seen the phrase "$225M subsidy" posted in the context that IA is pocketing all that to fatten the franchise's wallet??

Makes great fodder for those who hate hockey in warm climates but it's a flat out false statement to make.

I'm not debating the fact that IA might be using a portion of that to prime their revenue streams. That's obvious. But good grief old pal... let's put the power painter down.

Legend,

When Quebecor PAYS Quebec City to run their arena, when the going rate is apparently about 2M in other US places, and when Glendale pulled 6M out of a hat for their budget.....

I think it's disingenuous of you to suggest that this is anything BUT a subsidy/payment of sorts.

Anthony claimed that they profitted more than 9M this year on the arena side. Care to guess why?

At the least, that is 9M/yr more than is reasonable. Call it a135M giveaway, then. Feel better?

 

[Killion]

... How many times have we seen the phrase "$225M subsidy" posted in the context that IA is pocketing all that to fatten the franchise's wallet??... Makes great fodder for those who hate hockey in warm climates but it's a flat out false statement to make.

Oh goodness TL, its a "subsidy" flat out, used to purchase the club, now used to operate & run the building, the team itself. It is what it is. As for people "hating" on warm weather locations, thats their problem. Their hating on the wrong target. If they wanna hate on something or someone then they should be directing that at the NHL who beyond RS have done absolutely nothing for nearly 50yrs starting with the Kings & the Seals in seriously helping out these clubs to sink some solid foundations in their markets. Grow the game. Its not the markets that fail, its the league which has always either fostered or enabled feckless & intransigent ownership, or just sort of wound up waking up with whomever..... kinda like a night of drunken debauchery, one night stand. Im sure youve experienced that no?

 

[JimAnchower]

Oh goodness TL, its a "subsidy" flat out, used to purchase the club, now used to operate & run the building, the team itself. It is what it is. As for people "hating" on warm weather locations, thats their problem. Their hating on the wrong target. If they wanna hate on something or someone then they should be directing that at the NHL who beyond RS have done absolutely nothing for nearly 50yrs starting with the Kings & the Seals in seriously helping out these clubs to sink some solid foundations in their markets. Grow the game. Its not the markets that fail, its the league which has always either fostered or enabled feckless & intransigent ownership, or just sort of wound up waking up with whomever..... kinda like a night of drunken debauchery, one night stand. Im sure youve experienced that no?

How does the NHL keep allowing these people to buy teams? The Coyotes have had a string of them that either bought the team or were paraded as the saviors and ended up failing, but other teams have had their share. Spano just was the most famous and they should have learned their lesson from him, but DiBiaggio, Barrie, Rigas, etc were still to come. Daryl Pastor shows the incompetence the best. He came out of nowhere, with a press release expressing his interest. He did multiple interviews and got a lot of press, and it took the NHL over a month to dismiss his chances. It was almost as if they were hoping he had something and it just showed their desperation.

 

[Killion]

... Pastor shows the incompetence the best. He came out of nowhere, with a press release expressing his interest. He did multiple interviews and got a lot of press, and it took the NHL over a month to dismiss his chances. It was almost as if they were hoping he had something and it just showed their desperation.

Maybe Im remembering this wrong, maybe you, but my recollection of that situation is that Bill Daly wouldnt even return his phone calls when he was initially expressing interest. Then took it upon himself to just send in a blind offer. There was no negotiation as there wasnt any communication back from the NHL at all. Daly just outright dismissing the guy rather quickly. Like he was both a complication and annoyance, unwelcome intrusion. Least ways thats my memory of it. Pastor a Hedge Funder, Wealth Manager out of California who's family roots were in Buffalo, owned the Pepsi bottling plant for much of Western NY & environs & who's Uncles bought & turned around the old Buffalo Bisons of the AHL in the 50's & 60's. Displaced when the Sabres came on line in 1970. Just how "real" this guy was no idea. Excellent pedigree but who knows? To this day, I dont think we know the real truth about Greg Jamisons bid either. Story doesnt really add up. He did state that he had the $$$ but that the NHL at the last minute upped the ante' on him demanding way more down than he could possibly come up with in so short a period of time. This suggests he was sabotaged, that the NHL at some point in time between spring 2012 (when he was trotted out as the new owner of the Coyotes in a full court press conf with Gary Bettman) & February 1st 2013 decided to change the plan. Went all Black-Op with then called Renaissance Sports & Entertainment (now IceArizona).

 

[Fugu]

I remember Pastor saying that to the media as well.

I know this is total speculation, tin foil and all, but... could Tindall have been playing favorites again, assuming Joyce Clark can be trusted at all when she insinuated Jamison was getting stone-walled.

 

[JimAnchower]

Maybe Im remembering this wrong, maybe you, but my recollection of that situation is that Bill Daly wouldnt even return his phone calls when he was initially expressing interest. Then took it upon himself to just send in a blind offer. There was no negotiation as there wasnt any communication back from the NHL at all. Daly just outright dismissing the guy rather quickly. Like he was both a complication and annoyance, unwelcome intrusion. Least ways thats my memory of it. Pastor a Hedge Funder, Wealth Manager out of California who's family roots were in Buffalo, owned the Pepsi bottling plant for much of Western NY & environs & who's Uncles bought & turned around the old Buffalo Bisons of the AHL in the 50's & 60's. Displaced when the Sabres came on line in 1970. Just how "real" this guy was no idea. Excellent pedigree but who knows? To this day, I dont think we know the real truth about Greg Jamisons bid either. Story doesnt really add up. He did state that he had the $$$ but that the NHL at the last minute upped the ante' on him demanding way more down than he could possibly come up with in so short a period of time. This suggests he was sabotaged, that the NHL at some point in time between spring 2012 (when he was trotted out as the new owner of the Coyotes in a full court press conf with Gary Bettman) & February 1st 2013 decided to change the plan. Went all Black-Op with then called Renaissance Sports & Entertainment (now IceArizona).

I'm probably wrong, but I thought that wasn't until the end, after Pastor formally submitted a bid and the NHL rejected but never gave him, or anyone else, a reason. Looking back, there were reports that Bettman called Colangelo (not sure why Colangelo would know about him) about Pastor and there may been a meeting between Daly and Pastor. Of coursee, this could be Pastor telling Morgan all this. If from the beginning, the NHL dismissed Pastor's chances, I would figured someone from the league office would have contacted Morgan about that early on and let him report it. Letting it linger makes it seem the NHL considered it, perhaps even seriously.

 

[Killion]

I remember Pastor saying that to the media as well.

I know this is total speculation, tin foil and all, but... could Tindall have been playing favorites again, assuming Joyce Clark can be trusted at all when she insinuated Jamison was getting stone-walled.

I strongly suspect something went down between the NHL & Renaissance in between the period from that press conf spring 2012 & Feb 01/13; the deadline Jamison had been given to complete the sale with the NHL in securing his backers, making the down payment. Jamison buckling like that, made no sense at the time and his comments, albeit very brief & not widely publicized were that yes, the NHL raised the bar on him so high that it was impossible to close. Tindall stonewalling while simultaneously & duplicitously negotiating with LeBlanc & the NHL then yes, those dots all connect. Jamison only commented openly once then zipped it, and Im guessing here... but maybe the NHL didnt like the idea at all that Jamison was prepared to sign on with a non-relo clause in the agreement with Glendale. Didnt really believe he (or anyone) could ever make a go of it. Maybe asked Jamison to make sure he had an out clause & he refused to do so or couldnt obtain one in order to make the deal fly with the city. Any number of possibilities really but for whatever reason, he was abruptly dropped off, left on the curb. Very strange. Didnt then & doesnt to this day add up, pass the smell test.

 

[RR]

...So no, Id be focusing all of my attention on the local living breathing full time residents of the Valley. Not transients.

That's all I disagree with. Statistically, 2% of Canada's populace visits Arizona every year. IMO, that's reason enough for a sports, entertainment, or tourism business to devote some portion of its marketing budget to Canada. I suspect when Las Vegas gets its NHL team the organization will advertise NHL hockey in Canada as one more reason to visit.

 

[Fugu]

That's all I disagree with. Statistically, 2% of Canada's populace visits Arizona every year. IMO, that's reason enough for a sports, entertainment, or tourism business to devote some portion of its marketing budget to Canada. I suspect when Las Vegas gets its NHL team the organization will advertise NHL hockey in Canada as one more reason to visit.

RR, you're still citing data for visitors to Arizona, not Phoenix. I'm sure it's still substantial, but nowhere close to 700K all going to Phoenix, right?

 

[Killion]

I suspect when Las Vegas gets its NHL team the organization will advertise NHL hockey in Canada as one more reason to visit.

Oh sure, and tourist & convention boards, the various chambers of commerce including in this case specifically in addition to the aforementioned the Arizona ~ Canada Business Council & so on. You wouldnt ignore it, throw some cash and intelligence at it, provide whomever with pmt's for advertising, photo's, premiums & free tickets etc, schmooze potential businesses for relo or satellite office openings & so on, but all of it B2B. I wouldnt dream of throwing $$$ at the Canadian consumer market nor in Metro-Phoenix proper would I in anyway whatsoever play on the ethnicity of the games traditional stomping grounds.. go all Tim Hortons with a Dash of Maple Syrup as these lazy idiots have... "Canadafest" with Winnipegs very own BTO in the wake of a beyond damaging hostile relo attempt. That was really bright huh? Yeah, lets pick the scab off the wounds having suffered the slings & arrows of 10,000 fevered maniacs from Manitoba demanding we give up our team. Bring in Winnipeg hero Randy Bachman, Lover Boy.... in the field of "what were you thinking Tony"? That one ranks right up there. "Im a Moron and have no idea what Im doing".

 

[Llama19]

Maybe Im remembering this wrong, maybe you, but my recollection of that situation is that Bill Daly wouldnt even return his phone calls when he was initially expressing interest. Then took it upon himself to just send in a blind offer. There was no negotiation as there wasnt any communication back from the NHL at all. Daly just outright dismissing the guy rather quickly. Like he was both a complication and annoyance, unwelcome intrusion. Least ways thats my memory of it. Pastor a Hedge Funder, Wealth Manager out of California who's family roots were in Buffalo, owned the Pepsi bottling plant for much of Western NY & environs & who's Uncles bought & turned around the old Buffalo Bisons of the AHL in the 50's & 60's. Displaced when the Sabres came on line in 1970. Just how "real" this guy was no idea. Excellent pedigree but who knows? To this day, I dont think we know the real truth about Greg Jamisons bid either. Story doesnt really add up. He did state that he had the $$$ but that the NHL at the last minute upped the ante' on him demanding way more down than he could possibly come up with in so short a period of time. This suggests he was sabotaged, that the NHL at some point in time between spring 2012 (when he was trotted out as the new owner of the Coyotes in a full court press conf with Gary Bettman) & February 1st 2013 decided to change the plan. Went all Black-Op with then called Renaissance Sports & Entertainment (now IceArizona).

Article on Darin Pastor...

Darin Pastor wants to know why his offer to buy the Coyotes was rejected

Source: http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/...hy-his-offer-to-buy-the-coyotes-was-rejected/

And, Bill Daly's rejection...

To quote:

"“The offer is not one that the NHL is interested in pursuing, and we have informed Mr. Pastor of that,†deputy commissioner Bill Daly said, per Patrick Caisse of TVA Sports.

It’s not clear why the league refused to pursue Pastor’s offer."

Source: http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2013/05/13/nhl-rejects-offer-to-purchase-coyotes/

To further quote from the article:

"An investment group led by Alberta investment banker George Gosbee may be the favorite to buy the club and keep it in the desert."

 

[RR]

RR, you're still citing data for visitors to Arizona, not Phoenix. I'm sure it's still substantial, but nowhere close to 700K all going to Phoenix, right?

I'd say very, very substantial. Unless you're going to spend all of your vacation time at the Grand Canyon, in Flagstaff, or Sedona, you'll very likely base out of Phoenix. All three are easy day-trips.

What's a more reasonable number?

 

[RR]

I suspect when Las Vegas gets its NHL team the organization will advertise NHL hockey in Canada as one more reason to visit.

Oh sure, and tourist & convention boards, the various chambers of commerce including in this case specifically in addition to the aforementioned the Arizona ~ Canada Business Council & so on. You wouldnt ignore it, throw some cash and intelligence at it, provide whomever with pmt's for advertising, photo's, premiums & free tickets etc, schmooze potential businesses for relo or satellite office openings & so on, but all of it B2B. I wouldnt dream of throwing $$$ at the Canadian consumer market nor in Metro-Phoenix proper would I in anyway whatsoever play on the ethnicity of the games traditional stomping grounds.. go all Tim Hortons with a Dash of Maple Syrup as these lazy idiots have... "Canadafest" with Winnipegs very own BTO in the wake of a beyond damaging hostile relo attempt. That was really bright huh? Yeah, lets pick the scab off the wounds having suffered the slings & arrows of 10,000 fevered maniacs from Manitoba demanding we give up our team. Bring in Winnipeg hero Randy Bachman, Lover Boy.... in the field of "what were you thinking Tony"? That one ranks right up there. "Im a Moron and have no idea what Im doing".

So we'll disagree on the principal point.

As for the Canadafest event (I didn't attend), I wasn't aware of any back-story. If that's why they booked BTO I agree with you.

 

[madhi19]

They should settle just to prevent discovery. Even if there is nothing illegal going on, the court of public opinion could be completely burned if we see behind the scenes of IA, Barroway, Tindall, Fortress and the NHL.

At least that's what I would be telling IA.

They never cared much about PR after they swindled Glendale. If anything now the PR game became the blame game.

 

[Killion]

So we'll disagree on the principal point.

As for the Canadafest event (I didn't attend), I wasn't aware of any back-story. If that's why they booked BTO I agree with you.

Look, whether or not people even realized it consciously or not in Metro Phoenix... why would you be rubbing their noses in the Canadian flag after nearly 4yrs of having been shot at, strifed, dive bombed & nuked by the Canadian press & fans? Youd think the ownership group would be sensitive to that & try & run as far away from it as possible. Embrace SW culture. To Hell with everyone else. But no, apparently not. LeBlanc wearing a Maple Leaf on his sleeve when people would rather forget about all of that, better it be buried. Sorry RR, but this guy, he's an idiot. When in Rome, you do as the Romans. Embrace the culture. They have not yet done that. Dont get it. Provincial Morons running your team though maybe their finally waking up having hired local talent for the Draft Rally last mnth. And guess what? Its just a little late in the game for that epiphany to be hitting them huh?

 

[RECCE]

What's a more reasonable number?

My folks winter in Apache Junction, they receive a local (snowbirds?) paper that had an article in it that approx. 60,000 Canadian snowbirds flock to the East Valley each winter.

That sounds a bit more reasonable to me, even add on another 5-10k for visitors of snowbirds.

 

[Fugu]

I'd say very, very substantial. Unless you're going to spend all of your vacation time at the Grand Canyon, in Flagstaff, or Sedona, you'll very likely base out of Phoenix. All three are easy day-trips.

What's a more reasonable number?

I couldn't find any data that's limited to Phoenix. Tucson is pretty nice. Some might like it there or Sedona and Prescott (which admittedly aren't as big).

I found some interesting data, per links below. About 53% are 55 - 74, and the next largest group is the mid 30s to 50s segment. Most visit for 1-3 weeks, and only 20% are there for longer than 3 weeks. They are buying a lot of real estate, and setting up businesses. The majority also seem to be from Alberta, then Ontario and BC are about equal.

Now....the majority of sports fans, and then fans who attend games are in the 18-35 male group; and/or 20s-50s group for a lot of traditional markets. If most of these people are there for 1-3 weeks, as well, they may not really be there for the hockey, especially if their team isn't in town. There's a strong pattern with which quarter people visit (mainly after the holidays). IA would need to ask the NHL to schedule Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg and Toronto in January - April.

https://tourism.az.gov/sites/default/files/2012 Canada Profile.pdf

https://tourism.az.gov/sites/default/files/Canada Report FINAL 11.07.14.pdf


http://www.azcentral.com/story/news...cting-canadian-residents-businesses/23776839/

 

[Glacial]

Look, whether or not people even realized it consciously or not in Metro Phoenix... why would you be rubbing their noses in the Canadian flag after nearly 4yrs of having been shot at, strifed, dive bombed & nuked by the Canadian press & fans? Youd think the ownership group would be sensitive to that & try & run as far away from it as possible. Embrace SW culture. To Hell with everyone else. But no, apparently not. LeBlanc wearing a Maple Leaf on his sleeve when people would rather forget about all of that, better it be buried. Sorry RR, but this guy, he's an idiot. When in Rome, you do as the Romans. Embrace the culture. They have not yet done that. Dont get it. Provincial Morons running your team though maybe their finally waking up having hired local talent for the Draft Rally last mnth. And guess what? Its just a little late in the game for that epiphany to be hitting them huh?

It calls to question whether Leblanc/Ice Arizona ever intended to put for an honest effort to lay hockey roots in Arizona or if they were just incompetent and weren't fit to manage a minor league hockey team, let alone a NHL one. IceArizona's efforts seem less like a plant sending down a deep taproot to keep itself established through dry spells in a precipitation-limited land and more like a tumbleweed that will dry up and just tumble away. So far, it looks like they just helicoptered in and are operating in a little Ontario bubble, not trying to establish a successful Jamestown in the desert (as it stands, it looks like it's on the course of a Roanoke). Big time stage, small time minds.

I mean, even if they are purely machiavellian and intend to flip it 5 years from getting it, isn't owning/running a NHL team their absolute dream? Wouldn't one make their best effort at it, so they can point to the 2013-18 Arizona Coyotes and say they were part of constructing those teams, managing that franchise, even if post-2018 they were the Arizona Coyotes, Seattle Krakens, Saskatchewan Sasquatches, or the Newfoundland Seadogs? Wouldn't, even if they weren't given much of a revenue stream, try to market like crazy to at least increase attendance and thus revenue or appeal to the NHL for some funding as the AMF was going wholesale to Fortress and they inherited a team with revenue streams as dry as an arroyo? Their efforts so far have looked as bad as the NHL in booking events when it was directly running the Coyotes and Gila River Arena. This is the highest Leblanc is likely ever to get in sports ownership/management and this is the shot he makes?

Maybe Leblanc was trying to take over Rome as the barbarians did. Some say when in Rome, do as the Romans do, some defied that and decided to sack the place. Glendale certainly looks like it fell prey to some sacking.