Player Discussion Phillip Danault part 2

[Naslundforever]

Topic is Phil Danault, no? Do you not get the parallel with a former position in hockey where a player used their speed and skill so smother gameplay? He’s got skills, not skills I would pay a ticket to watch. I feel it should be a marginal role in hockey to be a pure, one-way shut down center. It means you don’t have a single athlete on your team can go head to head with the opposing’s best if that guy has the most ice time every night.. That’s not a knock on Phil. It makes the game meh.

Delete - replied to myself sry.

 

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Shutting down the opponents top line has been the modus operandi for the Habs for decades.

Danault has the role now, Plekanec and to some extent Eller had it before him and Carbonneau before them.

As long as this team lacks superstar talent up front, they will keep playing this way.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

Topic is Phil Danault, no? Do you not get the parallel with a former position in hockey where a player used their speed and skill so smother gameplay? He’s got skills, not skills I would pay a ticket to watch. I feel it should be a marginal role in hockey to be a pure, one-way shut down center. It means you don’t have a single athlete on your team can go head to head with the opposing’s best if that guy has the most ice time every night.. That’s not a knock on Phil. It makes the game meh.

Phil Da makes the teams wins in a non-conventional way. It's not like in the book says but it works. So what?
History is full of first time something have been made. Europeans never crossed the Atlantic sea. Someone did it first. Someone said to Jimi Hendrix nobody played guitar like you do and you shouldn't. But he did it. As long as Habs wins games, I like danault playing the most minutes. I like Suzuki taking scoring opportunities, same for Jesperi K and Staal. They play as a group, they play the system. And that system makes Danault play the most minutes. So in a certain angle he's the #1 center.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

Shutting down the opponents top line has been the modus operandi for the Habs for decades.

Danault has the role now, Plekanec and to some extent Eller had it before him and Carbonneau before them.

As long as this team lacks superstar talent up front, they will keep playing this way.

I don't disagree on this. Habs never been able to recoignise talent at center when they dratf. They didn't draft Getzlaf, Carter, Kopitar, Bergeron, Giroux, Henrique, Zajac, Point, Aho, etc. They didn't draft Eller, Suzuki and Danault either. They didn't. So they try to win with whoever they got by trade.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

Fair enough we're in total disagreement. Period.

For example, Esa tikanen, when he was shadowing Gretzky in the playoffs, may have gotten the most ice time. But that didn't make him a first line forward.

Why the Oilers had to play Tikanen more minutes than Gretz or Messier? The opposite team had a better center than Gretz or Messier? May have gotten, so it means you write that on the fly without stats to back-up?

 

[Naslundforever]

Phil Da makes the teams wins in a non-conventional way. It's not like in the book says but it works. So what?
History is full of first time something have been made. Europeans never crossed the Atlantic sea. Someone did it first. Someone said to Jimi Hendrix nobody played guitar like you do and you shouldn't. But he did it. As long as Habs wins games, I like danault playing the most minutes. I like Suzuki taking scoring opportunities, same for Jesperi K and Staal. They play as a group, they play the system. And that system makes Danault play the most minutes. So in a certain angle he's the #1 center.

Oh I can appreciate it’s working. Hendrix made guitar more exciting though. If Danault had been in music he would have been the guy in the booth asking for more cowbell haha... Heck it worked for Fleetwood Mac. I’m giving more weight to spectacle, it’s subjective. Plek and Carbo could put up points too so it’s a bit weird for me. Tikannen has 600+pts, 1000+ pim... Anyhoot I like his skating and IQ like most watching.

As for the who is 1c? On a given night, the one with most icetime would also be my definition.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

Oh I can appreciate it’s working. Hendrix made guitar more exciting though. If Danault had been in music he would have been the guy in the booth asking for more cowbell haha... Heck it worked for Fleetwood Mac. I’m giving more weight to spectacle, it’s subjective. Plek and Carbo could put up points too so it’s a bit weird for me. Tikannen has 600+pts, 1000+ pim... Anyhoot I like his skating and IQ like most watching.

As for the who is 1c? On a given night, the one with most icetime would also be my definition.

Fleetwood Mac and the cow bell, haha, you just quote one of my favorite band. It worked pretty well.

 

[tooji]

Until Suzuki can do what Danault does AND also dominate on the offensive end, they will need both. I can see this moment coming eventually as Suzuki continues to progress and turns into the bergeron/reilly clone we think he can be. But until that moment danault is invaluable

 

[canucklover123]

It would be a lot easier to face that addition burden of tougher competition if the most center actually produced offensively.

And I would also note if they can't handle facing tough competition and still produce then we won't have any success as a team and would need to rebuild and find players that can face tough opposition and still produce.

How so? If your centre keeps their top centre to minim opportunity and chance, than its up to the rest of the centres to produce given their matchups, which they have done enough for us to win.

I don't think anyone is saying Suzuki and KK cant play tougher competition, but I would rather them playing with an emphasis on offence and besting their matchups

 

[ZUKI]

Habs fans GMs ;

"KK should get more ice time because he scored 4 goals." and Danault none
Real life;
" it's really tough to play each 2 days, i am tired " - KK

KK is producing BECAUSE he doesn't get too much ice time. Give him more ice and he will start to make mental errors and his speed will fall just enough to make him easy to stop

Danault isn't a first line center . He's a match up player; It's the ice time of the opposite best players that determine his own ice time.

 

[417]

How so? If your centre keeps their top centre to minim opportunity and chance, than its up to the rest of the centres to produce given their matchups, which they have done enough for us to win.

I don't think anyone is saying Suzuki and KK cant play tougher competition, but I would rather them playing with an emphasis on offence and besting their matchups

The part you're neglecting in all of this is that offensive players need ice time to produce.

You're not going to get an offensive player putting up PPG when they're playing 14-16 mins a game.

That's part of the reason why the Habs traditionally, haven't had guys who finish among the top scorers or at a PPG.

Because they prefer using their best defensive players, the most.

 

[Sorinth]

How so? If your centre keeps their top centre to minim opportunity and chance, than its up to the rest of the centres to produce given their matchups, which they have done enough for us to win.

I don't think anyone is saying Suzuki and KK cant play tougher competition, but I would rather them playing with an emphasis on offence and besting their matchups

Exactly it's up to the rest of the centers to do everything offensively which is why we struggle to score more then 2 goals a game. Danault's lack of offensive contribution (And Tatar) isn't just seen in the lack of points, it's also the lack of offensive zone time which means tougher matchups since the opposing teams shutdown players can play exclusively against our young guys and ignore Danault's line, it means the D doesn't get as tired by playing in their own zone, it means less offensive zone starts for everybody, it means less icings where you can take advantage of a tired group, it's less powerplays because most penalties are drawn by forcing players to defend, etc...

All that contributes to making the other lines job harder not easier. It would be one thing if Danault was producing but just less then normal but still maintained his 59% GF% from the regular season. But he's not he's at 0%, so even though he's done a good job at shutting down the opposition he's still a net negative and that hurts the team

 

[BLONG7]

Shutting down the opponents top line has been the modus operandi for the Habs for decades.

Danault has the role now, Plekanec and to some extent Eller had it before him and Carbonneau before them.

As long as this team lacks superstar talent up front, they will keep playing this way.

Lost................................on so many fans. We have mastered the playing not to lose role for years now.

Well maybe if we score some goals, maybe just maybe we can actually win something!!

 

[Scriptor]

But we win. And Phil get the most ice time. And we win.
Do we have a real number one center in your definition of a #1 center able to play 25 minutes like Matthews played? You might say TO coach didn't have a good strategy but he lost Tavares and he almost won over the Habs. Almost but didn't. Thing is, Matthews and Marner looked like they played poorly, mainly because of the great shut down play of Danault and Gallagher.

Have to agree 100%.

Montreal trying to pit its best offensive lines against the opposents' best offensive lines -- especially when they have talent like Matthews and Marner, McDavid and Draisaitl, Crosby and Malkin, Ovechkin and Backstrom, McKinnon and Landeskog, Stamkos and the Russian, etc., would lead to a quick demise.

Strategy does not annoint a #1C status. Montreal simply doesn't have a generational C that everyone insists on comparing Danault with. They opt for the shutdown matchup, hoping to get goals elsewhere in the remaining matchups.

Hard for some to understand, it seems, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Scriptor]

Always arguing about the ranking number Danault is supoposed to be. This board have a fixation about the rankling of centers, I mean, that's an obsession. He was a #3 center by most of posters and in your post he is a #2 center. Did I upgraded the ranking number of Phil just with my posts? lol. I made him move from 3 to 2, jeez, what's in my coffee of this morning?

I'm actually saying it doesn't matter what you want to annoint him as being; 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th C. Half the board is arguing against different concepts in the first place.

Some look at it like what they remember when crbonneau was a player, or even before that.

Some look at it from the most recent trends when it comes to matchups in hockey.

Few have the same definition of what a #1C is; pure offensive skill, two-way skill with solid offensive upside, two-way skill, pure and simple, total TOI, abilities on the PP, whatever.

I couldn't care less as long as my player is winning his matchups. The more players we have that win their matchups, the better odds we have of winning as a team.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

I'm actually saying it doesn't matter what you want to annoint him as being; 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th C. Half the board is arguing against different concepts in the first place.

Some look at it like what they remember when crbonneau was a player, or even before that.

Some look at it from the most recent trends when it comes to matchups in hockey.

Few have the same definition of what a #1C is; pure offensive skill, two-way skill with solid offensive upside, two-way skill, pure and simple, total TOI, abilities on the PP, whatever.

I couldn't care less as long as my player is winning his matchups. The more players we have that win their matchups, the better odds we have of winning as a team.

Totally agree. Winning is all what counts at the end of the day.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

...the issue is no longer what Danault does for the team; it's now how much is that worth...plain & simple; do we pay him what he wants (supposedly $5 Mill+ on a long-term deal) or do we let him walk if he won't take less...

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

Have to agree 100%.

Montreal trying to pit its best offensive lines against the opposents' best offensive lines -- especially when they have talent like Matthews and Marner, McDavid and Draisaitl, Crosby and Malkin, Ovechkin and Backstrom, McKinnon and Landeskog, Stamkos and the Russian, etc., would lead to a quick demise.

Strategy does not annoint a #1C status. Montreal simply doesn't have a generational C that everyone insists on comparing Danault with. They opt for the shutdown matchup, hoping to get goals elsewhere in the remaining matchups.

Hard for some to understand, it seems, wouldn't you agree?

Yes I agree. Mtl have no choice, it's not like thay can oppoose Crosby to Matthews or Stamkos to Bergeron. Would I like Habs to have one of those generational C? Yes. But we don't have that. It doesn't diminuish the great work of Suzuki and JK, who are doing great with their age and talent.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

...the issue is no longer what Danault does for the team; it's now how much is that worth...plain & simple; do we pay him what he wants (supposedly $5 Mill+ on a long-term deal) or do we let him walk if he won't take less...

It depends on the rest of the play-offs I guess.
On the other hand, some posters mentionned Habs should keep that money to resign Tatar. I guess that idea fade out in the cosmic limbos.

 

[le_sean]

...the issue is no longer what Danault does for the team; it's now how much is that worth...plain & simple; do we pay him what he wants (supposedly $5 Mill+ on a long-term deal) or do we let him walk if he won't take less...

Knowing Bergevin, he will sign him to that exact amount and say that it’s a bargain. I’d rather just try and mould Evans or Poehling into that type of player and spend that money elsewhere. It’s time to actually give the reigns to our young centres.

 

[Mrb1p]

let someone else overpay for a shutdown player, without price, danault is not looking like such a great shutdown player, acquire some offensive free agent, price can use the offensive help especially next year in the playoffs, also you need offense to make the playoffs, this habs team has been very fortunate to simply be able to play in the last 2 cup tournaments, better teams are not in the tournament due to covid and the temporary re-alignment, next season division alignment is back to normal, danault and the rest of the habs will not look so good finishing only ahead of Buffalo during the regular season,

Amen. Build an offensive juggernaut, worry about defense second.

 

[Naslundforever]

I’m on board with the Flanders thing. On Budaj helmet Ned has those crazy Sheifele eyes for sure. Oups wrong thread. Danault Armia Perry could work.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

The part you're neglecting in all of this is that offensive players need ice time to produce.

You're not going to get an offensive player putting up PPG when they're playing 14-16 mins a game.

That's part of the reason why the Habs traditionally, haven't had guys who finish among the top scorers or at a PPG.

Because they prefer using their best defensive players, the most.

Could agree but both Suzuki and JK aren't generational talents and they are young. JK showed lack of speed from time to time in the season. Suzuki had a slump in the middle of the season after a good 10 games start. I understand your principles, like a rigit concept fixed in cement, but in real life the winners adapt to the adversity. So does Dom and he wins by using Danault more ice time.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

Knowing Bergevin, he will sign him to that exact amount and say that it’s a bargain. I’d rather just try and mould Evans or Poehling into that type of player and spend that money elsewhere. It’s time to actually give the reigns to our young centres.

LIKE



...stupid sexy Likes...

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

I’m on board with the Flanders thing. On Budaj helmet Ned has those crazy Sheifele eyes for sure.

Someone on facebook suggested that the crazy eyes of Scheifele was drugs.