Player Discussion Phillip Danault part 2

[Habs 4 Life]

Move on from Tatar and pay this man his money.

Tatar is gone no matter what

We will need extra cash for Lehkonen and KK who are RFA this summer
Perry and Armia as well, adecision will have to be made with both UFA

Personally Tatar is a no brainer in not coming back, Drouin would probably be the other guy I would try to move!

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

Tatar is gone no matter what

We will need extra cash for Lehkonen and KK who are RFA this summer
Perry and Armia as well, adecision will have to be made with both UFA

Personally Tatar is a no brainer in not coming back, Drouin would probably be the other guy I would try to move!

Extra cash for Lekhonen because of what? He scored 2 goals in playoffs? Lekhone at 2.5m is more than enough
Perry i would perhaps bring him back but a low cost. He does great for us but we need to focus on the future also.
As for Armia he's doing well in the playoff again but regular season he's barely a 30 points player even with top 6 minutes. same amount as Lekhonen or leave to be honest. Habs need to spend cash on actual players that will make a difference.

 

[Sorinth]

I mean ya, Danault line has been a beast defensively and from game 5 on in the leafs, have been grinding top lines in the offensive zone. Again though, Danault keeping the best line at near net zero is more than suffice to win a series. Of course, if they go up on the first line its a huge W but again by taking on the top line, it puts our other 3 lines in matchups they should win. Also again, Danault's line isn't a traditional first line either, they also aren't put in offensive situations to nearly the same extent as others. Before last game, Danault's line had ZERO offensive zone starts against the Jets.

We are winning because our other 9 have been able to capitalize, they weren't able to capitalize against the leafs until near the end of the series, thats on them.


If danault is matching against a top line and having similar minutes as their top line, that means the other 9 on both teams have similar minutes dispersed between them. If we wanna win, we have to beat our matchups, especially if we are in favourable positions.

Danault and his linemates kept a potent offensive juggernaut line in the leafs to lower than expected goals %, we were about to lose that series because our other 9 didn't take advantage of playing against inferior competition (especially with JT out) That is all.

This whole game plan only becomes an issue when Danault's line starts getting torched by the other teams top talent, which hasn't happened at all in both series.

Anyway, that line has been lights out and Lekhy picked up right where Evans left off. You are right, they do deserve more credit, maybe on this thread lol cause there already getting it everywhere else

The thing is Price stole the series against Toronto, the reason their top-line did so little was mainly because of Price. Compare that to Winnipeg where Price is still great, but he didn't have to steal the series for us to win. Relying on your goalie to steal multiple series is a recipe for failure, so no it's not only a problem when Danault's line starts getting torched by then it's probably going to be too late. When your check engine light is on you have a problem with your car even if you can still drive it.

And how come producing nothing but being part of a group effort to shutdown the opposition top line is ok for Danault but not for Tatar? Should've we have ignored Tatar's lack of production just because he was there alongside Danault "shutting down" Matthews/Marner?

 

[canucklover123]

The thing is Price stole the series against Toronto, the reason their top-line did so little was mainly because of Price. Compare that to Winnipeg where Price is still great, but he didn't have to steal the series for us to win. Relying on your goalie to steal multiple series is a recipe for failure, so no it's not only a problem when Danault's line starts getting torched by then it's probably going to be too late. When your check engine light is on you have a problem with your car even if you can still drive it.

And how come producing nothing but being part of a group effort to shutdown the opposition top line is ok for Danault but not for Tatar? Should've we have ignored Tatar's lack of production just because he was there alongside Danault "shutting down" Matthews/Marner?

No Matthews was simply neutralized. He managed only 26 shots at 5 on 5 against us in 7 games plus OT. I don't even know how many of those were against Danault, but were looking at worst case scenario 3.5 shots a game from the best scorer this season. He was simply locked up and add in part his linemate Marner was brutal.

Price was unbelievable but Matthews wasnt the concern at all lol.

I am still unsure why your focus is on Danault's usage against the top line (when he exceled at it), when it should be directed to the inability of team that was labeled to have depth through their top 12 not being able to take advantage of favourable matchups playing against lines of equal usage.

IF Matthews and Danault go 20 TOI against each other and come out on avg at par, why are we still losing games. We were losing because our other 9 were getting bested and the PP beat us. Leafs were missing JT, had an injured FOligno and Nash for one game and we weren't able to capitalize until; game 5. These are also players who have had offensive zone shift starts, I might add.

Water under the bridge though, because they did show up game 5 on from the leafs series and kept winning their matchups and we won all those games. They carried that play to Winnipeg and we swept. They should definitely be credited for that and how they picked it up.

As for Tatar, as you mentioned earlier lol so not sure why its a question, its not hard to see the Danault line was much more effective on the forecheck, better at getting pucks out off the wall and getting possession by having an extra centre (evans) and then leky picking it up from there. They have been much better at the cycle as well post Tatar...

Tatar even though the most talented of the bunch struggled at making those plays and hurt us. It is unfortunate because he can definitely help the Danault line offensively but he hasn't been good. With Tatar playing the way he was, you'll get plays like when Tatar cant dump it in against McDavid and Mcdavid picking up the loose puck flying the other way like he did on our last back to back.

What this also showed is that Danault and Gally clearly covered for Tatar's defensive play or lack there of.

Lastly, Gally should also be credited, he has been a dog after the tough start and been relentless since then.

 

[Sorinth]

No Matthews was simply neutralized. He managed only 26 shots at 5 on 5 against us in 7 games plus OT. I don't even know how many of those were against Danault, but were looking at worst case scenario 3.5 shots a game from the best scorer this season. He was simply locked up and add in part his linemate Marner was brutal.

Price was unbelievable but Matthews wasnt the concern at all lol.

The Matthews/Marner/Hyman line was on the ice for 25 High Danger shot attempts but scored only 2 goals for an 8% conversion rate. During the regular season their conversion rate was 15.85%.

Just regular shots Matthews shooting percentage went from 17.61% to 3.85%.

So no it wasn't Danault smothering the Matthews line, it was Price coming up big.

What Danault and company did was reduce Matthews from 1.88 high danger shot attempts a game to 1.29. That's very good, it's just not good enough to justify not producing. All it would've taken is for one of Matthews posts to be a goal and we would've been eliminated.

As for Tatar, as you mentioned earlier lol so not sure why its a question, its not hard to see the Danault line was much more effective on the forecheck, better at getting pucks out off the wall and getting possession by having an extra centre (evans) and then leky picking it up from there. They have been much better at the cycle as well post Tatar...

Tatar even though the most talented of the bunch struggled at making those plays and hurt us. It is unfortunate because he can definitely help the Danault line offensively but he hasn't been good. With Tatar playing the way he was, you'll get plays like when Tatar cant dump it in against McDavid and Mcdavid picking up the loose puck flying the other way like he did on our last back to back.

What this also showed is that Danault and Gally clearly covered for Tatar's defensive play or lack there of.

Lastly, Gally should also be credited, he has been a dog after the tough start and been relentless since then.

The reason I brought up Tatar is to highlight the inconsistency of your argument. Like Danault Tatar faced off against Toronto's #1 line, didn't produce offensively but didn't give up goals either because Price was shutting the door.

 

[canucklover123]

The Matthews/Marner/Hyman line was on the ice for 25 High Danger shot attempts but scored only 2 goals for an 8% conversion rate. During the regular season their conversion rate was 15.85%.

Just regular shots Matthews shooting percentage went from 17.61% to 3.85%.

So no it wasn't Danault smothering the Matthews line, it was Price coming up big.

What Danault and company did was reduce Matthews from 1.88 high danger shot attempts a game to 1.29. That's very good, it's just not good enough to justify not producing. All it would've taken is for one of Matthews posts to be a goal and we would've been eliminated.



The reason I brought up Tatar is to highlight the inconsistency of your argument. Like Danault Tatar faced off against Toronto's #1 line, didn't produce offensively but didn't give up goals either because Price was shutting the door.

So there is this them Ive noticed and unfortunately you're not the first to fall victim to it, is using season numbers when playoff numbers are readily available. Someone who put in effort to go into stats would see quite quickly numbers drop for players in the playoffs, so your argument is quite meaningless based on the cherry picked season stats you provided. So please do not prorate based on season %s lol, also important to note the %s don't pick up that AM34 played more than his AVG TOI, in fact his whole line did. Which makes it even more astounding what Danault's line was capable of.

Like I said, Matthews was neutralized and Danault and CO came up just a tad short of net zero against the most potent goal scorer in our division. The moment you brought up hypotheticals liked posts into this conversation, we can see there isn't much substance anymore to this.


Regarding Tatar, there is no inconsistent lol. You said it yourself the Danault line looked more dangerous game 5 on. You watched the games, you saw them do better with Tatar off, no need to look for something that isn't there lol. They were a better line with Evans/Lek.... nothing more to it.

Now seeing as I feel you're proving my points than your own, I want to understand your rationale behind my argument now for 4 posts which you have deferred from answering.

Why aren't you talking about the other 9 forwards who didn't contribute offensively playing similar minutes as their opponents and came our net negative at the start of the leaf series??

If you are concerned about these "goal posts", shouldn't you focus your frustration on the fact we had trouble beating down a team that had 3 natural centres hurt with all our "depth". Seems quite extra to be mad at the Danault line who doesnt have legit number 1 wingers, playing against a line that is much more talented them and with less offensive zone starts and still coming out near par. Anger seems misplaced.

Edit: I sae something you wrote in a prior post about needing 3 goals to win.... If Danault and Matthews both don't score, do they not just net each other out lol?

 

[26Mats]

Danault said in post series presser that they're winning because everyone accepts their role.

I think he accepts his role as a shutdown c - an elite shutdown c.

He has 2 assists in 11 games, but is still getting a lot of accolades for his defensive work. And he feels like:

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

Danault said in post series presser that they're winning because everyone accepts their role.

I think he accepts his as a shutdown c - an elite shutdown c.

He has 2 assists in 11 games, but is still getting a lot of accolades for his defensive work. And he feels like:

...good...sign for $4 x 4 or $4 x 5...

 

[26Mats]

...good...sign for $4 x 4 or $4 x 5...

I'm more worried about him accepting his role as a defensive center - accepting as in taking pride in it and enjoying it, as he is now. He clearly vues team success over offensive individual numbers.

For him to say this is the best time of his life in hockey when he only has 2,assists in 11 games, but the team is playing well and about to play for the cup finals and he's contributing in a defensive role, is a good sign.

But yeah, it will be interesting to see what his agent thinks he's worth.

 

[Archijerej]

Not complaining, simply stating he is a great shutdown centre, but he is not a great TWO way centre....and he is not....he does not posess the offence to be considered this.
He is the perfect 3rd line C for the Habs......perfect...
I hope we keep him.....but not at any cost...

He has 199 points in 392 NHL games. I'd say that's enough to be called a two way player.

 

[BLONG7]

He has 199 points in 392 NHL games. I'd say that's enough to be called a two way player.

Take a closer look at his numbers last year, and again this year............he is falling off big time...this season especially, and now the playoffs.
Shutdown centre, doing a great job...let;s hope he keeps it up.

 

[salbutera]

The reason I brought up Tatar is to highlight the inconsistency of your argument. Like Danault Tatar faced off against Toronto's #1 line, didn't produce offensively but didn't give up goals either because Price was shutting the door.

Tatar has proven throughout his entire career he disappears once playoff hockey begins - he brings nothing to the table if he’s not producing, and on a shutdown line he becomes a liability due to lack of grit, and unwillingness to pay the price.

 

[Sorinth]

So there is this them Ive noticed and unfortunately you're not the first to fall victim to it, is using season numbers when playoff numbers are readily available. Someone who put in effort to go into stats would see quite quickly numbers drop for players in the playoffs, so your argument is quite meaningless based on the cherry picked season stats you provided. So please do not prorate based on season %s lol, also important to note the %s don't pick up that AM34 played more than his AVG TOI, in fact his whole line did. Which makes it even more astounding what Danault's line was capable of.

Like I said, Matthews was neutralized and Danault and CO came up just a tad short of net zero against the most potent goal scorer in our division. The moment you brought up hypotheticals liked posts into this conversation, we can see there isn't much substance anymore to this.

If the numbers drop because it's the playoffs this will just make Danault's contribution look worse but fine here are the playoff numbers (5on5) for Matthews before this series 11.8% shooting percentage and 1.08 high danger shot attempts per game.

So Danault's amazing shutdown ability actually led to Matthews getting more high danger scoring attempts per game compared to his playoff baseline. The numbers show that it was Price who shut the door on Matthews not Danault.

And actually Matthews was on the ice (All situations) for 6 GF and 3 GA so not really a tad short of net zero. Especially given that so many games were decided by 1 goal. Which kind of highlights how this whole net zero is flawed, it ignores special teams.

Regarding Tatar, there is no inconsistent lol.

Did Tatar come out net zero against the most potent goal scorer in our division?

Edit: I sae something you wrote in a prior post about needing 3 goals to win.... If Danault and Matthews both don't score, do they not just net each other out lol?

Price is undefeated in the playoffs when the Habs score 3 goals or more. You would think that shows how important it is for the most used forward to contribute offensively, because having a 4th line go almost ppg simply isn't a sustainable way to win games, and that's what Danault bringing zero offence requires the team to do.

 

[canucklover123]

If the numbers drop because it's the playoffs this will just make Danault's contribution look worse but fine here are the playoff numbers (5on5) for Matthews before this series 11.8% shooting percentage and 1.08 high danger shot attempts per game.

So Danault's amazing shutdown ability actually led to Matthews getting more high danger scoring attempts per game compared to his playoff baseline. The numbers show that it was Price who shut the door on Matthews not Danault.

And actually Matthews was on the ice (All situations) for 6 GF and 3 GA so not really a tad short of net zero. Especially given that so many games were decided by 1 goal. Which kind of highlights how this whole net zero is flawed, it ignores special teams.



Did Tatar come out net zero against the most potent goal scorer in our division?



Price is undefeated in the playoffs when the Habs score 3 goals or more. You would think that shows how important it is for the most used forward to contribute offensively, because having a 4th line go almost ppg simply isn't a sustainable way to win games, and that's what Danault bringing zero offence requires the team to do.

Um, my man, why are you bringing up Matthews stats when Danault isn't on the ice

You said Matthews was on for 6GF, 3GA in all situations (weird you used all situation) seeing as we are taking about matchups at 5 on 5. Obviously, seems like youre reaching now but lets go there.

Matthews at 5 on 5 vs Danault - 1 GF, 0GA
Matthews in ALL situations against Danault - 3GF, 1gA (btw 1 G was an empty net as well)

This is even funnier seeing as Danault doesnt even play PP. The "potent" Matthews came out at +2 in all strenghths (cant believe you actually used his points in PP but wtv) and +1 in 5 on 5.

So, again you did a wonderful job of proving my point, play Danault against Matthews even more than he did and AM34 numbers would have looked even worse .

But yes, when you start bringing up stats of how "well" AM34 did when Selke Danault isn't on the ice, seems like we have a good example of "reaching".

Regarding Tatar, again not sure what you are trying to demonstrate when again it was clear as day the line did better with him off it. At this point, it seems like youre arguing against your own logical judgement to prove a nonexistent point.

And again regarding your last comment, with AM34 and PD cancelling each other out, seems like our most used forward did well against there most used forward. Like I mentioned now for the 4th time, maybe focus your attention on your "Depth" going cold against a team that had a lot less to offer. But you avoid that notion because it demonstrates how weak this argument actually is, when in fact they were the ones who consistently lost their matchup in the early part of the series.


Anyway, the moment you used points for Matthews when Danault wasnt on the ice, this conversation lacked all substance on your end. So no more point in arguing with you

Like I said to others before, just sit back and appreciate the defensive clinic

peace

 

[canucklover123]

Take a closer look at his numbers last year, and again this year............he is falling off big time...this season especially, and now the playoffs.
Shutdown centre, doing a great job...let;s hope he keeps it up.

Got less minutes, played without his right wing for a good part of the season and had an extensive schedule that apparently everyone fell victim to but somehow gets overlooked....

So ya, I took a closer look

 

[Nephasted]

Since is defensive performence in the playoffs... How much do you think he will got next years?

Do you give him 5.75?

 

[Redux91]

Since is defensive performence in the playoffs... How much do you think he will got next years?

Do you give him 5.75?

Still not really producing offensively really lol
So its 5 MAX right now

 

[HostileCapSpace]

He’ll take a pay cut and get extra money from a pizza sponsor

Habs about to cap circumvent Tampa Bay style.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

Since is defensive performence in the playoffs... How much do you think he will got next years?

Do you give him 5.75?

 

[habdynasty]

Still not really producing offensively really lol
So its 5 MAX right now

not producing at all , just Death Valley in the o-zone.

 

[abo9]

The Matthews/Marner/Hyman line was on the ice for 25 High Danger shot attempts but scored only 2 goals for an 8% conversion rate. During the regular season their conversion rate was 15.85%.

Just regular shots Matthews shooting percentage went from 17.61% to 3.85%.

So no it wasn't Danault smothering the Matthews line, it was Price coming up big.

What Danault and company did was reduce Matthews from 1.88 high danger shot attempts a game to 1.29. That's very good, it's just not good enough to justify not producing. All it would've taken is for one of Matthews posts to be a goal and we would've been eliminated.



The reason I brought up Tatar is to highlight the inconsistency of your argument. Like Danault Tatar faced off against Toronto's #1 line, didn't produce offensively but didn't give up goals either because Price was shutting the door.

Lol my blood boils when I see people saying AM and Marner did nothing because they chocked or because Danault "neutralized" them, but the first group don't want to accept that Price was THAT good, the second group don't want to accept that Danault is not a GOD defensively.

In fact, I looked it up before the Jets series, and Matthews' metrics were up double or triple in every category in the playoffs (did not check Marner). AM showed up big time, but he was also stopped big time by Carey Price.

So there is this them Ive noticed and unfortunately you're not the first to fall victim to it, is using season numbers when playoff numbers are readily available. Someone who put in effort to go into stats would see quite quickly numbers drop for players in the playoffs, so your argument is quite meaningless based on the cherry picked season stats you provided. So please do not prorate based on season %s lol, also important to note the %s don't pick up that AM34 played more than his AVG TOI, in fact his whole line did. Which makes it even more astounding what Danault's line was capable of.

Full stop on the bolded. You accuse someone to cherry pick stats when you state:

No Matthews was simply neutralized. He managed only 26 shots at 5 on 5 against us in 7 games plus OT. I don't even know how many of those were against Danault, but were looking at worst case scenario 3.5 shots a game from the best scorer this season. He was simply locked up and add in part his linemate Marner was brutal.

Price was unbelievable but Matthews wasnt the concern at all lol.

Ok so
1) 26/7 = 3.7, not 3.5 shots per game
2) you cherry picked 5v5 stats. AM shot at a 4.26 shots per game TOTAL in the RS, not too far from his playoffs 5v5... that same metrics goes up to 5 shots per game in the playoffs if you count every situation
A drop from 17.6 S% to 3% is not just "playoff numbers are lower" lol.
3) AM absolutely played great these playoffs. Tripled his number of hits (physically involved), doubled his takeaways, while reducing giveaways, and nearly double the blocked shots (defensive involvement). Oh yeah, his faceoff % was also up from 51% to 55%, and everyone now praises Danault for being so effective in the dot against Matthews?

The eye test matches up too, but that's subjective so I won't comment on the multiple shots from AM from the circles or in the slot, where Price rarely (if any?) gave a rebound.

Of course, since Danault was matched to Matthews all series long, his defensive stats will look glorious...
If we had lost. nobody would talk about Danault neutralizing AM and Marner. In fact, it was not even a topic of discussion before the game 7 win. Most people on here were on agreement that he had not showed up.

That said, I thought he played great against Winnipeg, and we really need him to keep playing great if we want a chance to win the next series. Him and Gallagher (and everyone) need to keep playing their best hockey and we have a chance.

 

[Remparts666]

Same contract as Pageau 6x5=30M

 

[azcanuck]

Not complaining, simply stating he is a great shutdown centre, but he is not a great TWO way centre....and he is not....he does not posess the offence to be considered this.
He is the perfect 3rd line C for the Habs......perfect...
I hope we keep him.....but not at any cost...

Here's a poster who just cant wrap his mind around the fact Danault is the top dog center RIGHT NOW on this team. Maybe KK and Suzuki pass him next year or year after but until they do Danault is the guy the coach is sending over the boards in the playoffs to WIN.
He is not a traditional two way center but where he does break the mold a bit is he does a great job at puck retrieval and possession, this keeping the chances down for guys like Matthews and Marner. Too bad Danault cant finish his plays or pass better no doubt but he's getting it done and that's all that matters.
And I agree he is a perfect third line center on a team like Colorado who has McKinnon. But we dont.

 

[azcanuck]

..
If we had lost. nobody would talk about Danault neutralizing AM and Marner. In fact, it was not even a topic of discussion before the game 7 win. Most people on here were on agreement that he had not showed up.

That said, I thought he played great against Winnipeg, and we really need him to keep playing great if we want a chance to win the next series. Him and Gallagher (and everyone) need to keep playing their best hockey and we have a chance.

Only true statement you make but guess what? We WON.

 

[habdynasty]

I’d take Suzuki if I had to choose between the two. Gets it done in overtime. Clutch.