Speculation: Philip Danault

[2Pair]

The only trades I can think in recent memory off the top of my head with a prospect like Newhook involved for an immediate player are Pacioretty and Stone but I could be forgetting someone.

For a Byram level prospect the only deal I can think of is Mike Richards (where the prospect traded in Schenn was a legitimate contender for top prospect in the league). Danault is good but I don’t think he’s the kind of marquee player to draw a prospect like Newhook or Byram, what would be the comparable deal?

Hanzal, Pageau, and Coleman are the three closest trades I can think of when trying to determine the value Danault would have, he’s very likely to go for something similar to those three if traded.

Schenn, Leddy, Coyle, Kapanen, Forsberg, Suzuki, Norris. Not a ton of examples but there is precedence. Comparing Danault to Hanzal, Pageau, and Coleman isn't a great take.

 

[Eltuna]

Schenn, Leddy, Coyle, Kapanen, Forsberg, Suzuki, Norris. Not a ton of examples but there is precedence. Comparing Danault to Hanzal, Pageau, and Coleman isn't a great take.

Which of those players were comparable to Newhook or Byram today? Schenn definitely as I mentioned but he was traded for a 1C signed long term in Richards.

Norris is obviously a step below Newhook and was traded for Karlsson so not at all comparable.

Coyle, Kapanen, and Leddy were not prospects when traded and were not traded for players like Danault so again are not at all comparable to this situation.

Suzuki is a comparable which I already mentioned but was traded for a near 40 goal scorer who is the kind of player that draws prospects like Newhook/Byram.

Forsberg is the best comparable in this list but that was a terrible trade so not very enticing to bring up.

How do you think comparing Danault to Patches, Stone, or M Richards in terms of trade value is reasonable but then dismiss Coleman, Hanzal, and Pageau? He is very obviously more comparable to the latter than the former, that should not even require a debate. Top prospects just don’t go for players like Danault, or at least they haven’t in the past decade+ or so, there is very little precedent and that kind of return should not be expected.

 

[2Pair]

Which of those players were comparable to Newhook or Byram today? Schenn definitely as I mentioned but he was traded for a 1C signed long term in Richards.

Norris is obviously a step below Newhook and was traded for Karlsson so not at all comparable.

Coyle, Kapanen, and Leddy were not prospects when traded and were not traded for players like Danault so again are not at all comparable to this situation.

Suzuki is a comparable which I already mentioned but was traded for a near 40 goal scorer who is the kind of player that draws prospects like Newhook/Byram.

Forsberg is the best comparable in this list but that was a terrible trade so not very enticing to bring up.

How do you think comparing Danault to Patches, Stone, or M Richards in terms of trade value is reasonable but then dismiss Coleman, Hanzal, and Pageau? He is very obviously more comparable to the latter than the former, that should not even require a debate. Top prospects just don’t go for players like Danault, or at least they haven’t in the past decade+ or so, there is very little precedent and that kind of return should not be expected.

All of those guys were recent 1st rounders that were highly thought of prospects that were traded before reaching the NHL. If you think that Newhook is somehow above where those guys were at the time they were traded? That just speaks to your ability to fairly assess players.

My point isn't that Colorado should trade a guy like Newhook for Danault. My point is that you're wrong in claiming that players like Newhook don't get traded for players like Danault. The rest of your argument is just gibberish

 

[Eltuna]

All of those guys were recent 1st rounders that were highly thought of prospects that were traded before reaching the NHL. If you think that Newhook is somehow above where those guys were at the time they were traded? That just speaks to your ability to fairly assess players.

My point isn't that Colorado should trade a guy like Newhook for Danault. My point is that you're wrong in claiming that players like Newhook don't get traded for players like Danault. The rest of your argument is just gibberish

Kapanen, Coyle, Norris, and Leddy are not as valuable when traded than Newhook/Byram are today. Coyle is the only reasonable one mentioned but even he is lagging. And besides, these players were not traded for a player like Danault, the argument is not to see if prospects get traded, the argument is to find recent comparables of them getting traded for a player like Danault which is very difficult to do.

The best arguments are Suzuki, Brannstrom, Forsberg, and Schenn, but these were for players obviously more valuable than Danault with the exception of Forsberg which is one of the trades that often gets brought up as the worst in recent memory.

It’s why Duchene was unable to snag Hanifin or Chabot, why Karlsson was unable to snag Heiskanen, and why McDonagh was unable to snag Sergachev, teams just don’t give up these kind of young players easily, and almost never give them up for someone like Danault.

If Montreal is expecting a Newhook, Caufield, Byram, Zegras, Cozens, or Podkolzin kind of player, it is my expectation that the fans will be really disappointed when he pulls a Hanzal return (Hanzal was thought of very similarly to Danault back when he was traded).

 

[Legend123]

Kapanen, Coyle, Norris, and Leddy are not as valuable when traded than Newhook/Byram are today. Coyle is the only reasonable one mentioned but even he is lagging. And besides, these players were not traded for a player like Danault, the argument is not to see if prospects get traded, the argument is to find recent comparables of them getting traded for a player like Danault which is very difficult to do.

The best arguments are Suzuki, Brannstrom, Forsberg, and Schenn, but these were for players obviously more valuable than Danault with the exception of Forsberg which is one of the trades that often gets brought up as the worst in recent memory.

It’s why Duchene was unable to snag Hanifin or Chabot, why Karlsson was unable to snag Heiskanen, and why McDonagh was unable to snag Sergachev, teams just don’t give up these kind of young players easily, and almost never give them up for someone like Danault.

If Montreal is expecting a Newhook, Caufield, Byram, Zegras, Cozens, or Podkolzin kind of player, it is my expectation that the fans will be really disappointed when he pulls a Hanzal return (Hanzal was thought of very similarly to Danault back when he was traded).

Just like when we got Suzuki???

 

[2Pair]

Kapanen, Coyle, Norris, and Leddy are not as valuable when traded than Newhook/Byram are today. Coyle is the only reasonable one mentioned but even he is lagging. And besides, these players were not traded for a player like Danault, the argument is not to see if prospects get traded, the argument is to find recent comparables of them getting traded for a player like Danault which is very difficult to do.

The best arguments are Suzuki, Brannstrom, Forsberg, and Schenn, but these were for players obviously more valuable than Danault with the exception of Forsberg which is one of the trades that often gets brought up as the worst in recent memory.

It’s why Duchene was unable to snag Hanifin or Chabot, why Karlsson was unable to snag Heiskanen, and why McDonagh was unable to snag Sergachev, teams just don’t give up these kind of young players easily, and almost never give them up for someone like Danault.

If Montreal is expecting a Newhook, Caufield, Byram, Zegras, Cozens, or Podkolzin kind of player, it is my expectation that the fans will be really disappointed when he pulls a Hanzal return (Hanzal was thought of very similarly to Danault back when he was traded).

You original argument was that prospects like Newhook don't get traded. I proved that statement wrong so you changed the argument until you thought you were right. Congratulations. Oh, you're still severely overrating Newhook.

 

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

Just like when we got Suzuki???

There is some context here as well. At the time Vegas was looking at Tatar as a cap dump (he turned out well for Montreal, but that is the case at the time). Pacioretty, despite having struggled the season prior to being traded, had shown more than Danault has.

 

[Legend123]

There is some context here as well. At the time Vegas was looking at Tatar as a cap dump (he turned out well for Montreal, but that is the case at the time). Pacioretty, despite having struggled the season prior to being traded, had shown more than Danault has.

Danault is a top two player like pacs was a goalscorer. Anyone trying to acquire him will have to give up a top prospect and not spare parts esp with an extension in place

 

[malcb33]

If Montreal is expecting a Newhook, Caufield, Byram, Zegras, Cozens, or Podkolzin kind of player, it is my expectation that the fans will be really disappointed when he pulls a Hanzal return (Hanzal was thought of very similarly to Danault back when he was traded).

Why? A part from rumours, there is no solid evidence that Montreal has to trade Danault (that I’ve seen at least). I’m sure they would be perfectly happy with resigning him as a 1/2C. KK has not shown the consistency needed to supplant Danault and Sukuzi is still very inexperienced as well.

Montreal does not need to trade Danault and he’s a core member of the team. So unless a really good offer is on the table (I.E. Newhook etc) why would trade him for the sake of it? Also the management believe the team has taken a step forward after the play offs, so again, why would they trade him for an offer that does not fill a need?

 

[Richard88]

You original argument was that prospects like Newhook don't get traded. I proved that statement wrong so you changed the argument until you thought you were right. Congratulations. Oh, you're still severely overrating Newhook.

The thing is, Colorado has no other prospect capable of replacing Kadri as 2C in 2022, and we also have Mackinnon/Byram/Kaut up for contracts in 2023, so we really can't afford to trade Newhook. His value to us on an ELC for 3 years is too great.

 

[Eltuna]

Just like when we got Suzuki???

Suzuki has been brought up by me multiple times, he was traded for a near 40 goal scorer that had years atop the leagues goal scoring leaders despite playing without a 1C, if Danault had that kind of history he would also draw a prospect like Suzuki. As is though the comparables for a player like Danault netting a blue chip prospect is nearly non existent.

 

[Legend123]

Suzuki has been brought up by me multiple times, he was traded for a near 40 goal scorer that had years atop the leagues goal scoring leaders despite playing without a 1C, if Danault had that kind of history he would also draw a prospect like Suzuki. As is though the comparables for a player like Danault netting a blue chip prospect is nearly non existent.

Ahh the very same we were told the same thing for a disappointing pacs...

 

[Eltuna]

You original argument was that prospects like Newhook don't get traded. I proved that statement wrong so you changed the argument until you thought you were right. Congratulations. Oh, you're still severely overrating Newhook.

If you reread my first message it says nothing of the sort, I directly mention three trades where a top prospect was traded. It would be foolish to think great prospects like Newhook/Byram never get traded as there as many many examples of such an occurrence.

It is much more difficult to find those prospects being traded for a player like Danault though which is why you are having such a difficult time finding them.

I do not think I’m overrating Newhook at all, he’s a Brannstrom level prospect, who again, generally only get traded when a Mark Stone is coming back. Even then, there are many examples where a marquee level player are traded and even they can’t bring back the teams top prospect. Karlsson (Hesikanen), Duchene (Chabot, White), Turris (Tolvanen, Fabbro), ROR (Thomas, Kyrou), Schenn (Thomas, Kyrou), Hall (Soderstom, Hayton), and McDonagh (Foote, Sergachev), are all recent examples of this.

 

[2Pair]

The thing is, Colorado has no other prospect capable of replacing Kadri as 2C in 2022, and we also have Mackinnon/Byram/Kaut up for contracts in 2023, so we really can't afford to trade Newhook. His value to us on an ELC for 3 years is too great.

I never once said that the Avs should trade Newhook. The only point that I've tried to make in this discussion is the fact that players like Newhook have in fact been traded before.

 

[Eltuna]

Ahh the very same we were told the same thing for a disappointing pacs...

I would not have said that, players that score that much have enough star power to garner a decent prospect, not always but it does happen.

Even then, Glass and Brannstrom were thought of as Vegas’ top prospects at the time, Suzuki was a close third.

 

[Richard88]

I never once said that the Avs should trade Newhook. The only point that I've tried to make in this discussion is the fact that players like Newhook have in fact been traded before.

Fair enough.

I agree that it's not impossible for Newhook to get traded, but the calibre of player coming back would need to be a fair bit higher than Danault.

Pacioretty had hit or paced for 30+ goals and 60+ points in 6 seasons in a row prior to the year he got traded, whereas Danault is a defensive C with a career high 13 goals.

That isn't to say that Danault isn't a very good player, but teams don't tend to trade premium prospects for defensive players.

 

[Eltuna]

I never once said that the Avs should trade Newhook. The only point that I've tried to make in this discussion is the fact that players like Newhook have in fact been traded before.

This is not the point you were arguing. If you could please quote one of my posts were this was mentioned that would put the argument to rest. Ensure to bold the section where I say prospects like Newhook/Byram have never been traded before so everyone can easily see it.

The actual argument was that prospects like Newhook/Byram are generally never traded for players like Danault in recent memory, which is very much true.

 

[HuGo Sham]

Habs aren't moving him. Period. They can't. His a monster minute eater and insulates suzuki and kotkaniemi. Bergevin is moving domi for a RWer

 

[HuGo Sham]

double post sorry

 

[2Pair]

Fair enough.

I agree that it's not impossible for Newhook to get traded, but the calibre of player coming back would need to be a fair bit higher than Danault.

Pacioretty had hit or paced for 30+ goals and 60+ points in 6 seasons in a row prior to the year he got traded, whereas Danault is a defensive C with a career high 13 goals.

That isn't to say that Danault isn't a very good player, but teams don't tend to trade premium prospects for defensive players.

You just need to educate yourself on Danault. A 55 point Selke caliber center will always be more valuable than any 65 point Winger. Always

 

[JoemAvs]

Byram is not going anywhere.

And the only way that Newhook leaves this offseason is if Cirelli comes in return on a cheaper than expected longterm extension...

Danault makes no sense for the Avs. He has only 1 year left and wants too much money for what the Avs need out of him.
So unless Bergevin is fine for swapping him for the pieces Habs fans in here hate, there is no deal to be found.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Byram is not going anywhere.

And the only way that Newhook leaves this offseason is if Cirelli comes in return on a cheaper than expected longterm extension...

Danault makes no sense for the Avs. He has only 1 year left and wants too much money for what the Avs need out of him.
So unless Bergevin is fine for swapping him for the pieces Habs fans in here hate, there is no deal to be found.

There never was a deal to be found. Danault is a core piece for the Habs and the idea of trading him is nonsense. The objective is for the Habs to re-sign him.

For some reason Avs fans believe MB should trade him for the sole purpose of improving the Avs. Because the collection of pieces you offer (Graves/Zadorov/Jost/late 1st) do nothing for the Habs since we are not rebuilding. And even if we were rebuilding only the late 1st had any value.

https://www.si.com/hockey/news/no-not-danault-why-trading-him-would-be-a-grave-mistake

Above is a good article on what Danault means to the Habs.

 

[AKL]

You just need to educate yourself on Danault. A 55 point Selke caliber center will always be more valuable than any 65 point Winger. Always

It can't be said enough that Danault is not a 55 point Selke caliber center on a team with anything resembling real top 6 centers.

 

[2Pair]

It can't be said enough that Danault is not a 55 point Selke caliber center on a team with anything resembling real top 6 centers.

I think that you've said it enough to prove that you have no idea WTF you're talking about.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

It can't be said enough that Danault is not a 55 point Selke caliber center on a team with anything resembling real top 6 centers.

It can’t be said enough that the Habs have no reason to trade a core piece.