- Dec 10, 2012
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This has nothing to do with what I said, but the fact that you didn't disagree with anything I said supprots that I'm right.
Speculation: Philip Danault
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This has nothing to do with what I said, but the fact that you didn't disagree with anything I said supprots that I'm right.
- Dec 10, 2012
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So you think if you put him on Dallas, Colorado, Vegas, etc, teams with at least one center better than him, if not two, he would still put up 55 points? With either less play time, lower quality linemates, or both?
He might if they give him pp time. What Danault provides is elite Puck possession and defensive play as evidenced by his corsi stats to go with 2C production.
@Richard88 seems to think he would produce similar numbers on the Avs 3rd line. I disagree but that’s what some people think.
- Dec 10, 2012
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Because all of those teams second line centers (and most of their forwards in general) got significantly less even strength time on ice than Danault did.
Montreal fans don't agree that he's best fit as a top 6 center. Their team has been looking for top 6 centers for as long as I can remember, and now the fans are saying they don't want to pay him or use him as one? Further, he's literally on the trade block because Montreal's management doesn't want to pay him as one. He's been a part of the problem with Montreal's lack of top 6 centers and now he's on his way out because he thinks he is one and everyone else thinks he isn't.
You cling to one single metric that says he's better than the likes of Barkov, Pettersson, Tavares, Kopitar, Bergeron. That alone should be a red flag.
- Dec 10, 2012
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By all accounts he's awful on the PP. He was 6th among Montreal's forwards in total PP time on ice this season. If he was any good there, he would be played more, especially given his 5v5 production. And I'm pretty sure those puck possessions metrics that show Danault as elite, also showed players like Nino and Zucker as elite puck possession players at one point.
ALOT of habs fan has been saying for a while he's a 3C on a real contender. he's probably the best 3C in the league but you are not winning a stanley cup if Danault is playing with your top 6 wingers.
The problem here is not the money and the icetime, i'd be willing to give him a decent caphit, alot of icetime but Defensive duties, but not with your best offensive players.
that's where the problem is, he's not whining about his possible icetime, he's whining about his possible linemates. he was already playing the toughest match up and that wouldn't change.
he's basicly knocking his teamate down and that's where i don't like it.
"Puck possesion" is a wide metric. Danault does not have good hands, does not have a great vision, isn't good when he's static. these are qualities you need on the powerplay. Danault exels on the rush, on the forecheck and has great anticipation wich are the reason he has a good corsi% and possession numbers. the guy plays a shit ton of icetime, if he was a good option on the powerplay, he would be on the first wave, don't worry about it.
- Dec 10, 2012
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I'm not debating the numbers, I'm debating the idea that they should be attributed to Danault's offensive prowess and taken as gospel that he's one of the best centers in the league.
Perfect.
And 3C's don't get the type of ice time and linemates Danault got. So it would be reasonable to believe that if he's played where he's best suited to play and with the linemates that come with that position, he's not a 55 point center.
I am not advocating Danault on the PP. He's never been good on the PP other than getting the puck in the offensive zone. But what i love about Danault is:
Among the 334 forwards who played 1,000 or more minutes at 5-on-5 this season, Danault and linemates Brendan Gallagher and Tomas Tatar held the top three spots at third, first and second, respectively, in team shot attempts per 60 minutes. With Danault on the ice, the Habs held the following advantages for the year in 5-on-5 play:
- Shot attempts: 1,191-815
- Shots on goal: 652-447
- Scoring chances: 560-381
- High-danger attempts: 231-152
- Goals: 59-39
He's one of the best 2-way C's in the league and has produced 2C level point production. I mean, say what you want, but those are facts. I understand your argument - that he wouldn't get good linemates if he is a 3C. True. But if he got better linemates than Gally / Tatar he would produce more in theory. It goes both ways.
- Dec 10, 2012
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I completely agree, his value is best as an elite shutdown 3C. That's not what I'm arguing against and that's not what Wild fans want to acquire him to be. They want to play him as our top line center, but they want to take away his PK time (Eriksson Ek and Sturm would fill the role), and they want to increase his PP time.
No one's advocating Danault to be a 1C. He's a effective 2C and elite 3C. Either way, what is special about his game is his puck possession and elite defensive game to go with offensive production. Judging him on points alone is disingenuous. He tilts the ice in your favor when he's on it.
- Dec 10, 2012
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No, no and no. Arguing with you is like talking to a brick wall.
Who's more likely correct? An entire fanbase and management team that doesn't want to pay him/use him like a top center, or one guy (you) who has probably watched minimal Danault games but saw his 5v5 scoring placed him as a top 20 center in the league and decided that's what he was?
that's counter effective.
ok i might have said something wrong, will retake it. Danault COULD be a 2C on a contender, but he would need a massive playdriving Winger ( there's not much of these Panarin, Kucherov) for example and an other elite winger.
To be effective and win hockey he needs to be on your PK and Shut down duties.
Shutting down opponents is as important as scoring goals.
Montreal are in a situation where they don't have elite playdriving wingers and have better potential offensive Centers to help their top 6 wingers.
if that makes sense.
Here's what i don't quite understand. Danault produces at a 2C level of production in the NHL. Danault ranked 37th among C's in point production in the regular season. The prior season he was ranked 48th. Combined between 2018 - 2020 he is 45th. At what point do you qualify as a 2C?
Does Gallagher / Tatar qualify as elite wingers that are inflating his production?
Does Gallagher / Tatar qualify as elite wingers that are inflating his production?
- Dec 10, 2012
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Sure, it makes sense.
Danault might work as a 2C in Vegas, New York Rangers where their top 6 wingers are very high end but they lack a lot of good center depth. He's still not ideal there, but it could work.
On a team like Minnesota where we have Fiala and maybe Kaprizov if he pans out? And our other top 6 wingers are Zuccarello and Parise? Yeah, probably not a good idea to force the square peg into a round hole.
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Danault did play heavy PK and shutdown minutes and still produced pointslike a 1st liner while having the best defensive line in the NHL. Danault is a 2nd line version of Kopitar, O'Reilly, Couturier. Those guys would also be great 3rd line shutdown centers but it would be pretty dumb to play them there.
- Dec 10, 2012
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Half the time anyone tries to so much as think about a Wild player based on their stats, you lash out about how you watch them and they know nothing about the player. Hell, a Penguins fan tried telling you Bjugstad is worse than Galchenyuk and you threw a fit about how you used to watch Bjugstad live when he was in high school/college.
Now you're trying to discredit the eye test because you found one stat that supports your broken opinion and the eye test doesn't agree.
I've seen and understand your stat. I've also taken into account his other stats, his usage and linemates when he achieved your stat. I've read about his game. I've read testimony from those who watch him most, and I've applied context from those and his contract negotiations. I have taken Montreal's fans words the same way you expect yours to be taken when anyone who isn't a Wild fan has an opinion about anyone remotely related to Minnesota.
You don't actually have a case built on facts here. You have one statistic and you think you're the smartest guy in a room full of people who are more qualified to have an opinion than you are.
He did, with our best wingers and produced bellow 55pts on a non-playoff team. We are talking about winning here. Not trying to take anything away from Danault he's probably a top 3 defensive Center. He needs to embrace that, like Guy Carbonneau back in the days.
If you go by logic, his best asset is shutting down line, put him with your best defensive wingers. on the other hand Suzuki and KK are potentially better offensive player and better at finding their teamates, put them with your goalscoring and offensive winger.
everyone in the right chair is how you win.
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