OT: Philadelphia Phillies: We Still Have A Guy Named MacPhail In The Front Office...

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Meanwhile Piazza and Ivan Rodriguez are in, so is the Commissioner who refused to make testing an issue, and the one that really gets me is Tony LaRussa. Not only did LaRussa time and time again go to the mat for McGwire, he actively tried to ruin Steve Wilstein's writing career because he asked about the bottle of andro in McGwire's locker.

It was unreal to watch them pick and choose who their witch hunt would brand. The funniest thing to me was the number of years you'd hear people defend Clemens. Are you telling me the most insanely competitive and ruthless athlete in the world is going to watch batters inject rocket fuel in their veins and not react to level the playing field? No chance.

 

[Hurricane28]

Bonds and Clemens were HOFer before the steroid usage imo. It shouldn't prevent them from getting in. Schilling is an a-hole but his numbers are worth getting in. The 16 clowns that submitted an empty ballot should be stripped of it going forward.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Bonds and Clemens were HOFer before the steroid usage imo. It shouldn't prevent them from getting in. Schilling is an a-hole but his numbers are worth getting in. The 16 clowns that submitted an empty ballot should be stripped of it going forward.

Yep.

 

[Hurricane28]

Yep.

I just can't get over how self-righteous some of these voters are. I mean, look at this ****
Full vid:

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

You have a lot politics & pettiness with these things in any sport but baseball takes the cake.

 

[Hurricane28]

You have a lot politics & pettiness with these things in any sport but baseball takes the cake.

Football's process is the best imo

 

[JojoTheWhale]

It was unreal to watch them pick and choose who their witch hunt would brand. The funniest thing to me was the number of years you'd hear people defend Clemens. Are you telling me the most insanely competitive and ruthless athlete in the world is going to watch batters inject rocket fuel in their veins and not react to level the playing field? No chance.

I really, really did not understand the Jeff Bagwell issue that seemed to die off when he finally got in. He never got popped and never had a huge unexplainable power spike. He was just a plus power bat from day one basically through the end of his career. It was just decided that maybe he did.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I really, really did not understand the Jeff Bagwell issue that seemed to die off when he finally got in. He never got popped and never had a huge unexplainable power spike. He was just a plus power bat from day one basically through the end of his career. It was just decided that maybe he did.

I guess because of being teammates with Ken Caminiti? Doesn’t Biggio even get roped in there too at times?

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I guess because of being teammates with Ken Caminiti? Doesn’t Biggio even get roped in there too at times?

Yeah, the weirdo that did the SI John Rocker interview accused Bagwell and Biggio with zero proof because he somehow determined that the Astros were the team where it was most prevalent.

Funny how that didn't happen to the Yankees despite Giambi, Justice, ARod, Kevin Brown, Knoblauch, Clemens, Pettitte, etc.

 

[DancingPanther]

I just can't get over how self-righteous some of these voters are. I mean, look at this ****
Full vid:

When personal vendettas and agendas get in the way of some of the best players to ever play recieve the sport's top honor

What I always say which shuts people up real quick (except for stuttering yeahbut!'s) is let's inject Tom Verducci with roids, have him work out for 8 months, then have him hit bp pitches. He wouldn't hit 1 home run, guaranteed

 

[Halladay]

I cant stand Clemens but he should be in as should Bonds and Manny. Schilling on the other hand, he can piss off. He is truly an embarrassment to the sport. That is all I will write. Rolen looks like he will eventually get in, which he should. Next year should be interesting to see if they handle Ortiz the same way as Manny, Bonds and Clemens. A Rod is also on the ballot. Rollins is too. I dont think Rollins should get in, Utley starts in 2024. I think he will eventually get in.

Helton gets killed from playing at Coors Field, id have him in. Maybe even Andruw Jones too, the rest like Kent and Vizquel, are a no for me.

 

[DancingPanther]

Yeah, the weirdo that did the SI John Rocker interview accused Bagwell and Biggio with zero proof because he somehow determined that the Astros were the team where it was most prevalent.

Funny how that didn't happen to the Yankees despite Giambi, Justice, ARod, Kevin Brown, Knoblauch, Clemens, Pettitte, etc.

Speaking of the Astros, if the Astros didn't get actually disciplined (world series stripped etc) then wtf is Bonds not in the Hall of Fame for

 

[Rebels57]

f*** Bonds.

 

[DancingPanther]

I cant stand Clemens but he should be in as should Bonds. Schilling on the other hand, he can piss off. He is truly an embarrassment to the sport. That is all I will write. Rolen looks like he will eventually get in, which he should. Next year should be interesting to see if they handle Ortiz the same way as Bonds and Clemens. A Rod is also on the ballot. Rollins is too. I dont think Rollins should get in, Utley starts in 2024. I think he will eventually get in.

Rollins won't, Utley might, I'm on the fence with Chase. I would be thrilled if he gets in, and wouldn't mind if he doesn't

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Maybe even Andruw Jones too

Oh hell yes. The best defensive outfielder I've ever seen. I can't say for sure he's not the best defensive player I've ever seen, period.

(I did not see Mays or Clemente.)

 

[Hurricane28]

Oh hell yes. The best defensive outfielder I've ever seen. I can't say for sure he's not the best defensive player I've ever seen, period.

(I did not see Mays or Clemente.)

Agree on Jones though I'm too young to remember his peak years. He also came into the league early, which probably had to do with his early decline.

 

[Halladay]

Rollins won't, Utley might, I'm on the fence with Chase. I would be thrilled if he gets in, and wouldn't mind if he doesn't

I think as the analytics evolve and appeal more to the voters, it will further strengthen his case. Problem with him is he only started playing every day at 26. Lots alot of plate appearances. Though his peak from 2005 to 2010 was one of the best 6 years stretches from a 2nd baseman. They made the playoffs 4 times and along with the World Series and another appearance in it. I agree with you about JRoll.

Oh hell yes. The best defensive outfielder I've ever seen. I can't say for sure he's not the best defensive player I've ever seen, period.

(I did not see Mays or Clemente.)

Im with you. Kiermayer is very good too in terms of an outfielder. Jones is weird though, he started playing at age 19 and stopped being a regular at 30. He got 34% of the vote. Might happen actually.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Football's process is the best imo

I know this won't get any sympathy in here, but the idea that Drew Pearson isn't in is just so f***ed. I liked Harold Carmichael plenty, and I'm happy he's in, but not at the expense of Drew. It's an actual travesty, according to the special dispensation of the 100-year thing, etc.

 

[Cody Webster]

Howard is on the ballot starting next year too, though I don't think he really has a chance

 

[Flybynite]

I don't know how I feel about HoF credentials at the best of times - my problems with them are an offshoot of the problems I have with statistics generally - but some of the reasons you assume are keeping these guys out are so petty. Like Schilling, I don't know if his numbers get him in (though I think they do?), but to keep him out because of the stupid political shit he says is just beyond stupid. Have they had a look at the personal conduct of half of the people in there who have statues?

Bonds was a dickhead, and worse, a Pirate, but come on. His hand-eye was stupid awesome.

I think the biggest issue with Schilling (if indeed writers are holding his post-baseball life against him) is that's actually not a part of the voting process.

Now if some ex-player headed for the hall of fame murders someone I would rather not see them voted into the hall of fame... So I am being hypocritical, but the qualifications for writers is.

5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

Integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played. Nowhere does it say the players POST-PLAYING CAREER should factor into the hall of fame voting qualifications.

However, those three things (integrity/sportsmanship/character) certainly are what also leaves the door open to not voting for Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and the other PED or suspected PED players.

Do I think Bonds and Clemens would have had hall of fame careers without ever using PED? Absolutely. I am sure of that.

Do I think Bonds would have retired as the HR king or played as exceptionally well into his early 40s as he did without PED? Absolutely NOT.

Do I think Clemens had a hall of fame career before possibly ever using PEDs? Yes.

Do I think Clemens would have had back to back top-3 Cy Young seasons after the age of 40 without PEDs? Absolutely NOT.


So then it just becomes a personal opinion of do you think the CHEATING done by these players is enough of a taint to cancel out their hall of fame careers? I'd actually be on the side of yes it does. I'm not going to crucify someone who is on the opposite side, but that's my personal opinion.

 

[FatTugboatFlahr]

I'm glad they aren't in.

I don't even know if they could fit a bust of Bonds' head in there.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

What current players are locks for the HoF?

Albert Pujols
Mike Trout
Clayton Kershaw
Miguel Cabrera
Justin Verlander
Max Scherzer
Zach Greinke

Not Yet: I love Joey Votto and he has all the metrics, but he's a 1B with 295 dingers and 966 RBIs. Chris Davis has that many HRs in one less season.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

Who should get in next year?

1	y Curt Schilling	10th	70.0%	171	46	20	79.5	48.6	64.1	61.6	402	773	39	117	0	29	1	25	.151	.178	.171	.348	-9	216	146	3.46	127	1.137	569	436	22	3261.0	2998	347	711	3116	*1/H
2	y Roger Clemens	10th	61.0%	332	73	24	139.2	65.9	102.6	61.6	95	179	5	31	0	12	0	13	.173	.236	.207	.443	17	354	184	3.12	143	1.173	709	707	0	4916.2	4185	363	1580	4672	*1
3	y Barry Bonds	10th	60.7%	340	77	22	162.8	72.7	117.7	53.6	2986	9847	2227	2935	762	1996	514	2558	.298	.444	.607	1.051	182														*78HD/9
4	y Omar Vizquel	5th	52.6%	120	42	24	45.6	26.8	36.2	55.3	2968	10586	1445	2877	80	951	404	1028	.272	.336	.352	.688	82														*65H4/D379
5	y Scott Rolen	5th	35.3%	99	40	17	70.1	43.6	56.9	55.7	2038	7398	1211	2077	316	1287	118	899	.281	.364	.490	.855	122														*5/H
6	y Billy Wagner	7th	31.7%	107	24	16	27.7	19.8	23.7	32.6	810	20	1	2	0	1	0	1	.100	.143	.100	.243	-35	47	40	2.31	187	0.998	853	0	422	903.0	601	82	300	1196	*1
7	y Gary Sheffield	8th	30.5%	158	61	22	60.5	38.0	49.3	57.2	2576	9217	1636	2689	509	1676	253	1475	.292	.393	.514	.907	140														*9*7*5*D6H/3
8	y Todd Helton	4th	29.2%	175	59	17	61.8	46.6	54.2	54.8	2247	7962	1401	2519	369	1406	37	1335	.316	.414	.539	.953	133														*3H/7D9
9	y Manny Ramirez	6th	28.2%	226	69	19	69.3	39.9	54.6	53.6	2302	8244	1544	2574	555	1831	38	1329	.312	.411	.585	.996	154														*7*9*DH
10	y Jeff Kent	9th	27.5%	123	51	17	55.4	35.8	45.6	57.0	2298	8498	1320	2461	377	1518	94	801	.290	.356	.500	.855	123														*453H/D6
11	y Andruw Jones	5th	19.4%	109	34	17	62.7	46.4	54.6	58.0	2196	7599	1204	1933	434	1289	152	891	.254	.337	.486	.823	111														*89H7D/3
12	y Sammy Sosa	10th	13.9%	202	52	18	58.6	43.8	51.2	57.2	2354	8813	1475	2408	609	1667	234	929	.273	.344	.534	.878	128														*98DH/7
13	y Andy Pettitte	4th	11.3%	128	44	18	60.2	34.1	47.2	61.6	108	196	6	27	1	13	0	6	.138	.163	.184	.346	-10	256	153	3.85	117	1.351	531	521	0	3316.0	3448	288	1031	2448	*1/H
14	y Bobby Abreu	3rd	5.5%	95	54	18	60.2	41.6	50.9	57.2	2425	8480	1453	2470	288	1363	400	1476	.291	.395	.475	.870	128														*9DH7/8
15	y Alex Rodriguez	1st		390	77	22	117.5	64.3	90.9	55.3	2784	10566	2021	3115	696	2086	329	1338	.295	.380	.550	.930	140														*6*5DH/3
16	y Tim Hudson	2nd		66	42	17	57.9	38.3	48.1	61.6	297	613	35	98	4	42	0	26	.160	.196	.214	.410	10	222	133	3.49	120	1.239	482	479	0	3126.2	2957	248	917	2080	*1/HD
17	y Mark Buehrle	2nd		52	31	16	59.1	35.8	47.4	61.6	55	125	4	9	1	3	0	2	.072	.087	.112	.199	-47	214	160	3.81	117	1.281	518	493	0	3283.1	3472	361	734	1870	*1
18	y David Ortiz	1st		171	55	20	55.3	35.2	45.3	54.8	2408	8640	1419	2472	541	1768	17	1319	.286	.380	.552	.931	141														*D3H
19	y Mark Teixeira	1st		109	33	14	50.6	38.0	44.3	54.8	1862	6936	1099	1862	409	1298	26	918	.268	.360	.509	.869	126														*3D/H957
20	y Torii Hunter	2nd		58	34	19	50.7	30.8	40.7	58.0	2372	8857	1296	2452	353	1391	195	661	.277	.331	.461	.793	110														*8*9DH/7
21	y Jimmy Rollins	1st		121	42	17	47.6	32.7	40.1	55.3	2275	9294	1421	2455	231	936	470	813	.264	.324	.418	.743	95														*6H/D4
22	y Carl Crawford	1st		53	22	15	39.1	32.3	35.7	53.6	1716	6655	998	1931	136	766	480	377	.290	.330	.435	.765	105														*7H8D
23	y Jake Peavy	1st		56	27	15	39.2	30.7	35.0	61.6	278	519	48	87	3	33	0	22	.168	.205	.222	.427	17	152	126	3.63	110	1.196	388	377	0	2377.0	2134	259	708	2207	*1/H
24	y Dan Haren	2nd		30	26	13	35.1	33.2	34.1	61.6	218	414	31	83	2	39	0	17	.200	.233	.278	.511	36	153	131	3.75	109	1.181	391	380	1	2419.2	2357	305	500	2013	*1/H
25	y Barry Zito	2nd

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I just assume everyone in the 90s was on steroids. I think it’s ridiculous for voters to freeze out some of those players while electing others.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I look forward to moving past this crop one way or the other.