Phil Kessel ranks 43rd on TSN's Top 50 NHL players

Center Ice Scrum*

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Aug 20, 2010
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I would really give a **** about these rankings but honestly at this point I've learned to accept that Leafs players/ management and the team in general doesn't get any respect around the league. And I'm fine with that. We don't need to be recognized by the so called "experts" in order to have a solid team and solid players. :yo:
 

Kurisu

mad scientist
Aug 13, 2012
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I just have a real problem with James Neal at #34, and Kessel is definitely better than him, which puts this whole ranking out a whack. I love to see what BS Mess writes here to prove otherwise.
 

ponder

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Jul 11, 2007
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completely disagree with your first sentiment in 2011-2012 Chicago finished 6th in the west and lost in the first round partly because players like Kane were poor, then with basically minimal chances last year they came out and were the most dominate team in the NHL because players like Kane took his game to a different level. Kane had 66 points in 11-12 in 82 games where as he had 55 in 47 last year(95.9 point pace over 82 games) how that's not stepping your game up to a new level I don't know. he wasn't the only one to do it and that's why they won the cup.
I see it in a very different way to you. It happens all the time that a team has a weak year, and all the players on a team put up weak numbers, then a team has a strong year, and everyone puts up strong numbers. Even last year alone Chicago were hardly the only example, Anaheim did the exact same thing (went from weak to strong as a team, and tonnes of players had their individual numbers improved substantially).

People like to have really simple cause-and-effect explanations for every little variation, like "this star improved tremendously and carried the team with him," or "this star had a bad year, so his whole team sucked." In reality there are an infinite number of factors influencing how a player AND how a team can perform. A team playing well can mean more time in the offensive zone, and more points for most players; a coach adopting a more offensive or more defensive strategy can affect everyone's point totals, AND the team's success; luck plays a HUGE role in sports, much more so than most will admit; etc.

People love to see "X happened because of Y" type logic explanations everywhere in the world, when really the explanations are way more complex. When I look at the variance in Kane's PPG over time:

f9IVuvE.jpg


I really don't see last year as him getting way better as a player, or the year before that as him getting way worse. The most likely explanation is that he's more or less the same player, with the same talent/abilities/drive, but other factors are causing noise in his production. Watching Kane play he's looked like more or less the same player to me for the past 4ish season straight, with people just reading way too much into pretty standard variance.

I work as a Data Analyst for a fairly large tech company, and I see this all the time at my job. When we're at point A in the chart below, everyone is freaking out, and wants "THE reason why this metric is so bad this month/week/whatever!?!?!?!?!?!?!" When we're at point B, it's always "look how amazing this metric is this month/week/whatever, it must be because of my business initiative!!!!!!"

3UOXC7u.jpg



In reality there's no single reason why the metric went up at A and down at B, it's a result of a huge number of factors, many of them virtually impossible to determine, and many of them complete outside the business control, and more whims of the consumers. When you're in the middle of that good period or that bad period, what is basically just noise can seem like some hugely significant trend, but it rarely is.

It's the same in sports, and pretty much everywhere in life. Human beings always want simple explanations for things that just don't have simple explanations, and we love to see trends where there really aren't any.
 

Cor

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Jun 24, 2012
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I just do t get how a guy who has never out scored Kessel and doesn't bring anything Kessel doesn't bring is rated higher then Kessel
 

Mowerman

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Oct 27, 2010
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Toronto
I would really give a **** about these rankings but honestly at this point I've learned to accept that Leafs players/ management and the team in general doesn't get any respect around the league. And I'm fine with that. We don't need to be recognized by the so called "experts" in order to have a solid team and solid players. :yo:
Pretty good outlook.

There isn't really a lot of integrity in a ranking like this. A lot of it is subjective biases of individuals that are "experts" but not to the degree where they can get legitimate hockey jobs with a team. Beyond that, taking a controversial stance towards a player of Kessel's calibre generates buzz and interest. Not to mention that Phil is the biggest name and asset on a team with the fanbase the Leafs have. Even moreso considering the position the team is in right now coming off that ridiculous game 7 and a "surprise" emergence from perpetual punchline of the league.

Ranking is just blatantly ridiculous considering Kessel's body of work. Hard to assume TSN legitimately believes it. This isn't ESPN, other sports are just filler between hockey highlights and stories. I haven't heard a single hockey fan or reputable sports journalist/analyst seriously question Phil's status as an elite offensive player since Lupul got here. When the question becomes "is Phil Kessel a true franchise player?" it's pretty obvious that he breaks the top 40.
 

achtungbaby

Registered User
Oct 31, 2006
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Getting paid is hardly an accurate way to determine someone's knowledge on hockey.

I'd be willing to bet that a great many of those "basement dweller member's" you talk about would be considered very knowledgeable compared to many executives.

Coaching and GMs are very different skills than scouting is. That list is very much scouting. There's a reason that lot's of GM's hand off the scouting duties to their head scouts.

The point is GM's and Coaches make mistakes, and make them often. Making comments like "oh they probably know more than you cause they're paid" is just dumb. Yeah, there is a reason they are paid but that doesn't mean they are infallible in their knowledge and every decision they make is correct. It's quite likely that they have overrated more than a few player's and underrated others

It's also quite likely they have a better grasp on who the best players in the league are then we do. If you had to bet your house on a hfboard posters opinion about hockey or a professional GM/coach's opinion about the game, I'd surely to God take the latters.

All this whining smacks of hurt feelings and poor sportsmanship. Its like a little league team with a bad attitude around here sometimes when something doesn't go our way.
 

BayStreetBullies*

Guest
All this whining smacks of hurt feelings and poor sportsmanship. Its like a little league team with a bad attitude around here sometimes when something doesn't go our way.

Yeah, God forbid people on here have mixed opinions about some random poll. I guess everyone should just agree with the hockey gods that are anonymous GMs and coaches. Assuming TSN even sought their opinion.
 

achtungbaby

Registered User
Oct 31, 2006
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Yeah, God forbid people on here have mixed opinions about some random poll. I guess everyone should just agree with the hockey gods that are anonymous GMs and coaches. Assuming TSN even sought their opinion.

I disagree with some of the list as well but it doesn't mean that I'm going to shoot the messenger. What would that prove?
 

Mowerman

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Oct 27, 2010
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It's also quite likely they have a better grasp on who the best players in the league are then we do. If you had to bet your house on a hfboard posters opinion about hockey or a professional GM/coach's opinion about the game, I'd surely to God take the latters.
Sure. There's also a pretty clear disconnect present between where Kessel has been ranked relative to his peers and what he has accomplished in the last few years relative to them. It doesn't take a professional hockey mind to recognize that.

All this whining smacks of hurt feelings and poor sportsmanship. Its like a little league team with a bad attitude around here sometimes when something doesn't go our way.
Come on. Posting on an hockey forum about where an elite offensive player stacks up compared to his peers smacks of poor sportsmanship and hurt feelings? I don't think you are really fit to judge the attitude of others right now, sorry.
 

pspot

Registered User
Dec 20, 2004
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Kitchener
couple of things

Fantasy rating vs hockey rankings are very different things
if you want to make a comparison look at roto league rankings which take in to consideration other stats like +/-, hits, pim, etc

THe fantasy draft on this board , I'm pretty sure Kessel went in the second round, which is right around 43 so its funny to see people say how this list is out of touch.

Kessel is a sniper, he's an offensive player, there is nothing wrong with that. He's also not a top all around player like a Toews, Datsyuk, Zetterberg ,etc

the one thing that doesn't line up is Stamkos, widely considered a top 5 player but the more I watch him the more I think he's a lot more like Kessel than he is like Crosby or that class of player.
 

achtungbaby

Registered User
Oct 31, 2006
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Sure. There's also a pretty clear disconnect present between where Kessel has been ranked relative to his peers and what he has accomplished in the last few years relative to them. It doesn't take a professional hockey mind to recognize that.


Come on. Posting on an hockey forum about where an elite offensive player stacks up compared to his peers smacks of poor sportsmanship and hurt feelings? I don't think you are really fit to judge the attitude of others right now, sorry.

There's posting on a discussion forum and then there's attacking TSN, attacking the pro's used, and saying everyone just hates the Leafs.

Edit: don't look now, but you're also judging someone else's attitude mate. :)
 

Mowerman

Registered User
Oct 27, 2010
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Toronto
couple of things

Fantasy rating vs hockey rankings are very different things
if you want to make a comparison look at roto league rankings which take in to consideration other stats like +/-, hits, pim, etc

THe fantasy draft on this board , I'm pretty sure Kessel went in the second round, which is right around 43 so its funny to see people say how this list is out of touch.

Kessel is a sniper, he's an offensive player, there is nothing wrong with that. He's also not a top all around player like a Toews, Datsyuk, Zetterberg ,etc

the one thing that doesn't line up is Stamkos, widely considered a top 5 player but the more I watch him the more I think he's a lot more like Kessel than he is like Crosby or that class of player.
79gp 23g 23a

82gp 51g 44a

82gp 45g 46a

82gp 60g 37a

48gp 29g 28a

really? you must think very highly of kessel.
 

johnny_rudeboy

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Mar 20, 2006
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Cant really say if the list is correct or not. Guess it is for most of the names. But Kessel is better then Neal but not better then Hossa so I would have put him 33rd.
 

Mess

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Feb 27, 2002
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Polls of "hockey people" are just as prone to emotional decisions over logic as polls of fans. For example, Patrick Kane is really the same player he was a year ago, but this year they ranked him as the 9th best player in the league, while last year he was ranked 38th best. Their logic is clouded because he won the cup, pure and simple. Yeah, he was a significant part of that, but team accomplishments really should not play much into individual player rankings. Great players on weak teams will never win the cup, weak players on great teams can win cups, cups wins say very little about the ability of an individual player.

Kane won the Conn Smythe as playoff MVP, which is an individual award. ;)

GMs and coaches goal is to win, so players that they prefer that help them win will always be considered to have a greater impact than those that don't.
 

Mitchy

#HFOutcasts
Jul 12, 2012
14,477
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Nash, Hossa, Neal, Couture, Lucic, Duchene - All ahead of Kessel. Can't wait until Kessel has another ppg season. Let's see what the doubters and critics say then.
 

Just Rude

"I'm listening to the *** song!!!"
Oct 15, 2005
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I wouldn't read too much into the list. It is completely subjective. What constitutes the "best" 50 players in the league? Is it a combination of scoring ability, two-way play, PP, PK, who you play with (i.e. James Neal at 34).

Suffice to say, if the list is the top 50 offensive players, or you are looking at just points for your fantasy team, Kessel is top 10 probably 9 out of 10 times.

And yes, Phil's D has improved, and I recognize that....
 

achtungbaby

Registered User
Oct 31, 2006
4,792
25
Cant really say if the list is correct or not. Guess it is for most of the names. But Kessel is better then Neal but not better then Hossa so I would have put him 33rd.

I still think Neal's placement is the biggest surprise for me. I admit I haven't watched him that often but from what I've read, he's not the most physical or defensive guy around. I guess I'm curious about the intangibles there that the gms and coach's seem to like.
 

Future

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Feb 8, 2011
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Nash, Hossa, Neal, Couture, Lucic, Duchene - All ahead of Kessel. Can't wait until Kessel has another ppg season. Let's see what the doubters and critics say then.

He's already had 2 in a row. I don't see anything changing. People are just idiots.
 

TimeZone

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Sep 15, 2008
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God....that is a truly horrifying list.

Lucic ahead of Kessel is probably the most pathetic thing I've ever seen.
 

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