Confirmed with Link: Pens trade 1st (No. 31) + Oskar Sundqvist for Ryan Reaves and Blues 2nd (No. 51)|Pt.2

[HandshakeLine]

I love that fordy's always so deadpan I can never tell what side of the issue he's on. That's a man after my own heart.

I feel like I'm pissing into the wind on this, but really, the trade is polarizing because both sides, with some small outliers, are really just advocating different team philosophies. One side is saying, more or less, "We won this year because we proved you don't need to get physical with other teams, and Reaves is a step away from that." The other side is saying "It's nice to have a top 5 hitter in the league with wheels and a mean streak who makes that 4th line a physical force again." All that jawing about enforcers is really missing the point.

Reaves, however you feel about him, is not a traditional goon like Sestito or an enforcer like Laraque/Godard. He's a great fighter, but as I mentioned before, if you're blowing up people with heavy hits, you probably SHOULD be. It's a good debate as to whether or not we need that kind of physicality on the team. But claiming that Reaves is just a goon? That's just being painfully misinformed, IMO, and really just ads nothing but static to the real debate that should be taking place here.

 

[Shady Machine]

Well I fail to see how you can come to that conclusion, if management felt so highly about him why would they include him in a trade for a worthless 4th line goon? C'mon now, he WAS passed on the depth chart by Rowney and there are other centres down on the farm that may have passed him too.

who said Reaves was a worthless 4th line goon?

 

[MtlPenFan]

It's funny, but this is the first time I can come up with way more pros than cons for a move and still feel indifferent about it.

I don't care about the pick given up. It's a 31st in a consensus bad draft.

I don't care about Sundqvist. To me he's Pouliot in the sense that when I watch him play, I'm not impressed by a single thing. Not his board play, not his speed, nothing.

I've seen Reaves play, and every time I watch him I acknowledge that he's faster than he looks, is really good around the boards, hits to hurt, and if you're into that sort of thing, he's probably the best fighter in the League.

He's a 4th liner that's going to replace another 4th liner. I ALWAYS prefer speed and a little skill regardless of which line you play on, but the way this team is built, it won't make or break us. At worse, they wasted assets by trading $1.10 for 4 quarters. Regardless, that 4th line, for the last two years, has been all about Matt Cullen. HE is why it was successful whether he was flanked by Kuhnakl, Rust, Archibald, Fehr, Wilson, and everyone else who played next to him. If he retires, it won't matter if Reaves turns out to be better than everyone else I just mentioned.

To add to all that, Sully is a ****ing wizard, and it won't surprise me one bit if he turns him into an even better player, a really good hybrid of legit grinder, occasional scorer, and a guy who can put you in the hospital.

With all that said, I wish they didn't do it, mainly because I think this deterrence nonsense has never worked. Aside from Jonathan Toews, the enforcer as an effective tool is the biggest myth ever pushed on hockey fans. Refs keep their eyes open for guys like Reaves, and while he's not Steve Downie, we're still going to have to kill extra penalties this year simply because he exists. When Sid or Letang get nailed because again, deterrence doesn't work, he'll feel the need to justify his existence by doing something stupid. I'd rather avoid all that nonsense, even the potential for it, yet here we are.

 

[Shady Machine]

Well, he's faster than anyone you mentioned, and he's a lot tougher to play against, especially in a seven game series. And he has fresh legs and is in tremendous shape. Next year will be every bit the war of attrition this year was. He helps with that.

The fact that he works as hard as anyone is great too. When I see people say he doesn't fit what Sullivan wants, I don't understand that stuff. All MS has to do is make sure he plays between the whistles. Which he does pretty well already. To have as many hits as he did, and only a couple of interference penalties is impressive.

Good response. I appreciate the lack of condescension (seriously). I've watched Reaves play here and there but can't say I'm an expert on him. I have concerns on the price paid and his lack of offensive production.

I'm willing to let it play out and see what else JR has up his sleeve.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Well, he's faster than anyone you mentioned, and he's a lot tougher to play against, especially in a seven game series. And he has fresh legs and is in tremendous shape. Next year will be every bit the war of attrition this year was. He helps with that.

The fact that he works as hard as anyone is great too. When I see people say he doesn't fit what Sullivan wants, I don't understand that stuff. All MS has to do is make sure he plays between the whistles. Which he does pretty well already. To have as many hits as he did, and only a couple of interference penalties is impressive.

Exactly. Watch that video of him running down Tyson Barrie again, he's playing that routine dump in really picture perfect. Watch it. He gets the puck at his blue line and is fast enough to blow by the Avs forwards, chips it in (while running over an Av in the process), gets on Barrie, pressures him at the Avs goal line and then chases him back to catch him in the neutral zone for a huge, clean hit. That is why STL wanted to keep him, the fighting is just a bonus.

You want a 4th line with speed? Well, Reaves has some serious wheels for a big dude.

 

[HandshakeLine]

who said Reaves was a worthless 4th line goon?

Big, for one. But that was on the trade board thread.

 

[Shady Machine]

Big, for one. But that was on the trade board thread.

Ha fair enough.

 

[SCPens]

who said Reaves was a worthless 4th line goon?

It was an attempt at sarcasm on my behalf, I LOVE the trade. Although I'm sure I've read that exact term on these boards more than once since the deal went down.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

who said Reaves was a worthless 4th line goon?

Quite a few.

 

[Slaaapshuter]

The thing about Reaves is that I couldn't care less if he didn't drop his gloves ones during his stay here. I want him because of his hitting, and by that I mean with the combination of his speed. He is more able to do the right hits, meaning hitting the puck carrier. And as shown, he can hit the players that matters, the ones that can skate. Sestito will never be able to play against and also clock Bäckström, but Reaves just might. That's is the difference which makes all the world.

Also, the times you saw Archibald and Wilson connect with hits, it was good legal ones. But they didn't inflict pain, Reaves can also do the exact same legal checks, but they'll hurt. A lot.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

It's funny, but this is the first time I can come up with way more pros than cons for a move and still feel indifferent about it.

I don't care about the pick given up. It's a 31st in a consensus bad draft.

I don't care about Sundqvist. To me he's Pouliot in the sense that when I watch him play, I'm not impressed by a single thing. Not his board play, not his speed, nothing.

I've seen Reaves play, and every time I watch him I acknowledge that he's faster than he looks, is really good around the boards, hits to hurt, and if you're into that sort of thing, he's probably the best fighter in the League.

He's a 4th liner that's going to replace another 4th liner. I ALWAYS prefer speed and a little skill regardless of which line you play on, but the way this team is built, it won't make or break us. At worse, they wasted assets by trading $1.10 for 4 quarters. Regardless, that 4th line, for the last two years, has been all about Matt Cullen. HE is why it was successful whether he was flanked by Kuhnakl, Rust, Archibald, Fehr, Wilson, and everyone else who played next to him. If he retires, it won't matter if Reaves turns out to be better than everyone else I just mentioned.

To add to all that, Sully is a ****ing wizard, and it won't surprise me one bit if he turns him into an even better player, a really good hybrid of legit grinder, occasional scorer, and a guy who can put you in the hospital.

With all that said, I wish they didn't do it, mainly because I think this deterrence nonsense has never worked. Aside from Jonathan Toews, the enforcer as an effective tool is the biggest myth ever pushed on hockey fans. Refs keep their eyes open for guys like Reaves, and while he's not Steve Downie, we're still going to have to kill extra penalties this year simply because he exists. When Sid or Letang get nailed because again, deterrence doesn't work, he'll feel the need to justify his existence by doing something stupid. I'd rather avoid all that nonsense, even the potential for it, yet here we are.

Reaves doesn't have to do something stupid to **** up your stars. He's caught big stars like Crosby, Kane and Toews and messed them up on clean hits.

If Niskanen or Wilson or Dubinsky go after Crosby and Malkin, Reaves is going to go after Panarin, Werenski, AO, Backstrom, Kuzy, etc

He will catch them and he will keep doing it, because he's very good at his job.

Deterrence is a lot different when others pay for your stupidity. **** up a drill, the teams does such suicides. Mess with another teams stars, your stars get bounced.

Eye for an eye. It's the only way to police this god awful ****** mess of a league.

 

[molon labe]

Is an unproven player more valuable than a player that is definitely terrible at hockey? Definitely worse than the average NHL 4th liner? What about adding in the late first for late 2nd swap?

The only thing Reaves will be good for is being dodged by Tom Wilson a few times this year and punching some guys in the face that are being paid to be punched in the face. Oh and a few hits that do nothing while the puck goes the other way. Tanner Glass is a fantastic skater and lays hits too. Reaves is a bit heavier and a better fighter. That's the only difference.

Our 3 recent cups all came with NO ENFORCER. He's a worse hockey player than Kuhnhackl, Wilson etc that he will be playing over. He won't be on the ice at the same time as Crosby or Malkin and won't prevent them from getting hit or from liberties being taken with them.

Even if it wasn't a terrible trade value-wise, which it very is, he's filling a non-existent need and making the team worse while he's on the ice.

Wilson averaged 10:57 last season over 78 games played scoring 26 points (8G, 18A)

Kuhn averaged 10:39 last season over 57 games played scoring 16 points (4G, 12A)

Ryan Reaves averaged 8:53 last season over 80 games played scoring 13 points (7G, 6A)

Now, to say a guy with tenure in the NHL who has been consistently in the lineup for St Louis in what HAS been the toughest conference in the NHL...who managed 13 points despite playing a HEAVILY defensive style under Hitchcock on a team whose 4th line was not designed even remotely as a scoring line- is a worse hockey player than two young forwards who fight for ice time on the Pittsburgh Penguins (arguably the most dynamic scoring team in the NHL), who managed to put up just a 90-120 seconds more ice time per game and a few more points....is asinine. I'm sorry but I would trade either of those guys 10 times out of 10 for Reaves. However, they are better hockey players than Sundqvist who is the person in question and frankly would have been terrifying to rely on as a 4C next year.

If you take just one moment to look at the facts and logic behind this situation, you would change your tune about Ryan Reaves. He's not a standard enforcer which has been pointed out hundreds of times already, people are just far too emotional to listen to it. The guy has speed and an incredible forecheck game that can be used on a 4th line. We did not bring Reaves in to replace Rust on the first or second line - we traded an AHL prospect who looked terrible and moved down in the draft to acquire a proven 4th line player who has upside that has yet to be tapped in to. If anyone can make the guy a 25-30 point player it's sully and these Penguins.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

But a 2nd next year and a 3rd in 2019 probably doesn't get you within sniffing distance of Reaves. The Pens are looking to win NOW, Ryan Reaves adds to the now. Draft picks and apparently Sundqvist don't. I'm not for trading every pick, far from it actually, but moving down 20 spots for an immediate roster acquisition and apparently still getting the guy they wanted at pick 51 shouldn't be inspiring this many tears.

They traded picks to acquire him, I'm just talking about different picks that to me are more on target for what he's worth. He's a great 4th liner, which is still a 4th liner. I would've preferred keeping that pick basically.

 

[SCPens]

They traded picks to acquire him, I'm just talking about different picks that to me are more on target for what he's worth. He's a great 4th liner, which is still a 4th liner. I would've preferred keeping that pick basically.

Oh I understand what you said, I just don't understand where you're coming from. And apparently he was worth what he got traded for, because that's what St. Louis got for him. Any other "more on target proposals" are just pure conjecture.

 

[HandshakeLine]

They traded picks to acquire him, I'm just talking about different picks that to me are more on target for what he's worth. He's a great 4th liner, which is still a 4th liner. I would've preferred keeping that pick basically.

I get that, but, honestly, I feel that this trade does more to make us a tougher team (and not in the 70s Bruins kinda way) to play against right now. Kostin is years away from the NHL, if he ever comes over (and god forbid his shoulder doesn't fall apart again), Sunqvist is unproven. Reaves fills a niche that we don't have any internal options for- namely a fast, defensively sound hitter who makes opponents pay during puck retrieval. Hell, I don't think we've had that since Cooke and I honestly think Reaves is better at it, simply because he's not as dirty as Cooke was. He's just big and fast and hits like a truck.

I'm also feeling pretty confident about saying that the Pens wouldn't have traded for Reaves if they didn't have some idea of how that want that 4th line to look, either internally or via other moves.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

Oh I understand what you said, I just don't understand where you're coming from. And apparently he was worth what he got traded for, because that's what St. Louis got for him. Any other "more on target proposals" are just pure conjecture.

I'm saying I like the player and I understand the thinking behind the acquisition, I just don't think it was worth not getting a better player in the system. I think they should have been able to get him another way. Maybe trade Wilson straight up and possibly a crap pick. Maybe Sundqvist plus picks similar to those I mentioned instead of the swap we did make.

All the return St. Louis got means is that JR was willing to give it. The player's actual worth is 100% up for debate.

I get that, but, honestly, I feel that this trade does more to make us a tougher team (and not in the 70s Bruins kinda way) to play against right now. Kostin is years away from the NHL, if he ever comes over (and god forbid his shoulder doesn't fall apart again), Sunqvist is unproven. Reaves fills a niche that we don't have any internal options for- namely a fast, defensively sound hitter who makes opponents pay during puck retrieval. Hell, I don't think we've had that since Cooke and I honestly think Reaves is better at it, simply because he's not as dirty as Cooke was. He's just big and fast and hits like a truck.

I'm also feeling pretty confident about saying that the Pens wouldn't have traded for Reaves if they didn't have some idea of how that want that 4th line to look, either internally or via other moves.

I dig the player, I just think monkeying with the 1st rounder was totally unnecessary.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

I also think getting lost in it all is this...

I can understand why people are wary since we traded what most believed to be our best C prospect, closest C prospect on a team with no 3C and 4C. BUT for GMJR to make this trade either...

1. He doesnt view Sundqvist as our best C prospect
2. He already has a plan and probably a backup plan for our center situation for this coming year and it didnt involve Sundqvist in either senario.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

I'm saying I like the player and I understand the thinking behind the acquisition, I just don't think it was worth not getting a better player in the system. I think they should have been able to get him another way. Maybe trade Wilson straight up and possibly a crap pick. Maybe Sundqvist plus picks similar to those I mentioned instead of the swap we did make.

All the return St. Louis got means is that JR was willing to give it. The player's actual worth is 100% up for debate.



I dig the player, I just think monkeying with the 1st rounder was totally unnecessary.

There is one argument for doing the pick swap... you keep the same amount of assets. In your scenario your reducing your prospect pool by another 2 bodies on top of picks already dealt. In the current scenario that played out you only reduce the quality of one pick. And considering 31 to 51 is probably closer than most realize on average this specific draft was said to be even weaker and more muddled than most.

 

[sigamy]

I think it was/is naive of us to think the Penguins and their style of play could change the NHL. We have wanted hockey to be about offense and skill since the late 1980s. The league has ignored and called us crybabies. Clutch, grab, slash, hack, crosscheck to the head. Playoffs come, whistles get lost. "Hockey play". Ugh.

Again: Best sport. Worst league.

NHL Network was airing Game 1 of 2016 Finals last night. Joe Thorton (not even know as a tough guy at all) was throwing fists and lumber around that entire series. Some of the shots were serious Match Penalty in my mind.

It was great that we just keep moving, scoring, winning. The "just play" mantra is great and it was a real breathe of fresh air after the meltdowns of Disco Dan Era.

But we do need a physical presence. I'm all for this trade right now. Even if Sundqvist becomes a 20-goal scorer, I'm OK.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

There is one argument for doing the pick swap... you keep the same amount of assets. In your scenario your reducing your prospect pool by another 2 bodies on top of picks already dealt. In the current scenario that played out you only reduce the quality of one pick. And considering 31 to 51 is probably closer than most realize on average this specific draft was said to be even weaker and more muddled than most.

Yeah that's a great point. You don't lose anything from a quantity perspective and that's definitely a pick where everyone's lists are going to start varying wildly.

 

[SCPens]

I'm saying I like the player and I understand the thinking behind the acquisition, I just don't think it was worth not getting a better player in the system. I think they should have been able to get him another way. Maybe trade Wilson straight up and possibly a crap pick. Maybe Sundqvist plus picks similar to those I mentioned instead of the swap we did make.

All the return St. Louis got means is that JR was willing to give it. The player's actual worth is 100% up for debate.

Again pure conjecture. Maybe St. Louis was more focused on flipping the draft picks than getting Sundqvist, or as you suggested Wilson.

And all the return St. Louis got doesn't necessarily mean that that's what JR was willing to give. It could be what St. Louis demanded for a player they may not have been thinking about dealing in the first place.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Big, for one. But that was on the trade board thread.

To be fair I was kinda drunk and in a really bad mood

I don't like Reaves and I really wish the NHL would police things properly themselves so players like Reaves wouldn't be an asset in the NHL...but he is a significantly better player than many of the 4th liners we've had through the years and I've seen enough Blues games to know that he's a decent enough fourth liner. I just don't like that style of player at all, so couple that with hearing that we were giving up a 1st and Sundqvist for him (the fact we were getting 51 came after this) set me off. I was also convinced that this indicated that Rowney would be the 4C and we'd lose one of the biggest things that have differentiated us these past two years - the ability to roll four lines. I'm not as convinced of that now, more that the Pens had soured on Sundqvist's offensive upside, but it still worries me.

I still don't like the trade one bit and find that it was atrocious asset management for a fourth liner a year away from being a 31 year-old UFA, but my hatred was misguided and I'll gladly walk things back a bit. At the very least the thought of Ryan Reaves in a Penguins jersey doesn't make me want to puke half as much as the mere concept of Tom Sestito existing does, so that's something I guess.

 

[molon labe]

At the very least the thought of Ryan Reaves in a Penguins jersey doesn't make me want to puke half as much as the mere concept of Tom Sestito existing does, so that's something I guess.

These were in a system that did not promote his offensive game. Yeah they're just two goals - but the work put in prior to, and the shot placement are not luck...

Honestly, 'goons' hardly play 80 games a year in the NHL anymore. The fact he's around says a lot and I think if he comes in motivated to play just a fast game with hard forechecking he will be a fourth line Patric Hornqvist, with heavy hands to boot. I think with the right preparation, this guy under Coach Sullivan will be one "scary" fourth liner

--

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

These were in a system that did not promote his offensive game. Yeah they're just two goals - but the work put in prior to, and the shot placement are not luck...

Honestly, 'goons' hardly play 80 games a year in the NHL anymore. The fact he's around says a lot and I think if he comes in motivated to play just a fast game with hard forechecking he will be a fourth line Patric Hornqvist, with heavy hands to boot. I think with the right preparation, this guy under Coach Sullivan will be one "scary" fourth liner

--

Geez, that first clip. Salivating already.

 

[mpp9]

If Sid feels more comfortable on the ice and plays better because of it, that's good enough for me.