Confirmed with Link: Pens trade 1st (No. 31) + Oskar Sundqvist for Ryan Reaves and Blues 2nd (No. 51)|Pt.2

[Shady Machine]

This offensive product in you're referring to, are you speaking of Sundqvist? Because offensive production was not going to come from him.

No the offensive production from the player he replaces (Maybe Wilson). I think we need to wait to see how the rest of the lineul shakes out before we fully judge. I'm just not a fan overpaying for a specific role player.

I also liked Sunnys potential as a 4C with size, great defensive awareness, PK ability, potential net front, and some untapped offensive potential. Others apparently weren't impressed and maybe my view of him ends up being wrong, but I think JR gave up on him too quickly and for a worse return than his potential dictated.

 

[Shady Machine]

Crosby seems to believe it.

okay and?

 

[SCPens]

I'll believe it when I see it. It will be nice to have a dude that can actually inflict pain on the other teams defense, but I don't believe for a second that guys will play Crosby any differently with Reaves on the bench.

Well I guess we can agree to disagree on that point. Reaves won't completely eliminate the crap that our guys have endured over the past couple of seasons, but he will decrease the potential number of incidents going forward. The league has it's share of tough guys and also it's share of "tough guys". We'll come to learn a lot about the competition with Reaves wearing a Pens jersey now.

 

[SCPens]

No the offensive production from the player he replaces (Maybe Wilson). I think we need to wait to see how the rest of the lineul shakes out before we fully judge. I'm just not a fan overpaying for a specific role player.

I also liked Sunnys potential as a 4C with size, great defensive awareness, PK ability, potential net front, and some untapped offensive potential. Others apparently weren't impressed and maybe my view of him ends up being wrong, but I think JR gave up on him too quickly and for a worse return than his potential dictated.

Well that's the thing, we're talking about potential with Sundqvist. It's speculation at best. I personally don't think JR gave up on him too quickly. As another poster eluded to, it's been like 5 years for Oskar. What has he accomplished? It's the National Hockey League not the Potential Hockey League. With his waiver status now an issue Sundqvist had too many forwards ahead of him on the depth chart for management to continue crossing their fingers that he'd finally step up and earn a roster spot. Reaves IS an NHL player, and one who offers key elements that should help the Pens continue their winning ways. Oskar......not so much.

 

[turd]

Your bolded strawman arguments give you away.

I found Dejan everybody!!!!

Good grief.

No, what you found is someone that didn't fall in line with the collective board's evaluation of those players because it was so far off that it wasn't even funny. People STILL ***** about that Despres trade even after Lovejoy played an integral part in last year's Cup team.

I imagine it's something that all fan bases do, but this particular fan base really enjoys distorting the value of some of the prospects in the system. I don't really recall too many (or any) times that one of these fringe players got dumped and we regretted the move thereafter.

 

[exHornet]

okay and?

And, Sid gets what he wants. I guess they could cancel it and tell Sid that because you feel differently than he does, that the whole thing is off.

But just to keep this discussion interesting, are you saying that even if Crosby believes that having an enforcer helps him, that JR should say no? Clearly this has his blessing, and JR mentioned during the nightly playoff beatings that it would be addressed, so it didn't come out of nowhere.

 

[DegenX]

Someone refresh my memory, since I'm too lazy to look it up, please. Wasn't Sundqvist playing in Sweden for a couple of years before he went to W-B/S? And didn't they sign Cullen for two of those years, effectively blocking his opportunity to prove himself at the NHL level? Are we arguing that a handful of games should be enough to prove his readiness? Because there have been plenty of guys who were up and down in their first few seasons. Or are we arguing that after x amount of time in the minors there's no chance a guy can perform at the NHL level? How long was Dumo in the AHL?

Some of you seem pretty confident that Sundqvist is a bust based on some questionable logic.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

I didn't mind the trade from the get-go.

Seems like the Pens were quite high on Lauzon and were confident they could get him in the middle of the second round instead of with their 1st. It also seems like the Pens gave up on Sundqvist fitting in with this team's style.

Let's not forget that Sundqvist had to pass through waivers if he'd be going to WBS. Now, the Pens really only have to worry about Archibald and Pouliot being lost to waivers.

Also, after his few games in March people really were low on Sundqvist's abilities.

This is how I looked at it also. Trading down 20 spots is not a huge deal if they targeted Lauzon and knew he would still be around 20 spots later. Also they might not of had a big gap between him and some of the other defenseman that had been available at 31. The rankings might say differently but they are not always right. I remember people on these boards throwing tantrums over so called reaches like Goligoski and Guentzel.

I like Reaves and I believe he will provide some needed toughness while also bringing speed and good forechecking. I love how he has over 200+ hits in each of the past 4 years. Those our also hits that hurt and punish defenseman that will make a difference over the course of a game and even more important over a 7 game series. I also knew Sundqvist needed to be traded that is why I had him as one of the pieces in all my trade scenarios. I did not believe he was going to make the team and he would not pass through waivers.

As long as JR gets that good center for that 3C spot which he has stated is his big priority I think we will put out our strongest team in years. It is amazing how fast he turned this teams direction around. This team was looking like a team that it's window had passed and I remember several posters saying we should purposely tank and go full rebuild. The team was old and slow around our core and in a very short time JR made it young and fast. Instead of wasting picks and prospects on rentals he added core aged players with term like Kessel, Hagelin, Hornqvist, Daley, and Schultz. JR sees A need and gets the best available player for that need. Some examples are the team not willing to go to hard areas and lacking grit for the hard goals in front of the net and JR gets Hornqvist known as one if not they best net front presence at the time. Another example is the team is not fast enough and he changes the teams whole identity in a years time to the fastest team with the trade additions of Kessel, Hagelin, Daley, and Schultz while bringing up fast young prospects like Rust, Sheary, Wilson, Kuhnhackl, and last year Guentzel with this year most likely Sprong. JR transformed this team faster than I thought possible with some of those bad contracts Shero left him with. We won back to back Cups and our core is surrounded by young fast talent and a goalie that has won two Cups as a rookie. Really would anyone of believed me 3 years ago if I said we would be in this position? Everyone needs to sit back and enjoy the ride. JR will get a great 3C and depth at every position because that is what he does. JR see's a need and fixes it and that is why Reaves is here because he is the best at what he does and that is not just fighting. What Reaves provides is the toughest player in the league that can play well enough to take a regular shift. Those 200+ hits a year and his speed shows that. I know I am going to enjoy watching him.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

Someone refresh my memory, since I'm too lazy to look it up, please. Wasn't Sundqvist playing in Sweden for a couple of years before he went to W-B/S? And didn't they sign Cullen for two of those years, effectively blocking his opportunity to prove himself at the NHL level? Are we arguing that a handful of games should be enough to prove his readiness? Because there have been plenty of guys who were up and down in their first few seasons. Or are we arguing that after x amount of time in the minors there's no chance a guy can perform at the NHL level? How long was Dumo in the AHL?

Some of you seem pretty confident that Sundqvist is a bust based on some questionable logic.

I don't think Sundqvist is a guaranteed bust but also don't see him fitting our system. Sundqvist might become a decent 3C in a few years but I don't think the chances are that high. His change of direction just seems slow and I really did not want him as our 4C next year. With Sundqvist eligible for waivers I just believed he needed to be traded. I think Reaves gives us the better opportunity to win next year over Sundqvist so I am all for this deal. Toughest player on skates and can skate and forecheck well sounds like a perfect addition to the 4th line with Wilson on the other wing. Now get someone like Boyle and teams will hate playing against that line, ha ha.

 

[Peat]

Someone refresh my memory, since I'm too lazy to look it up, please. Wasn't Sundqvist playing in Sweden for a couple of years before he went to W-B/S? And didn't they sign Cullen for two of those years, effectively blocking his opportunity to prove himself at the NHL level? Are we arguing that a handful of games should be enough to prove his readiness? Because there have been plenty of guys who were up and down in their first few seasons. Or are we arguing that after x amount of time in the minors there's no chance a guy can perform at the NHL level? How long was Dumo in the AHL?

Some of you seem pretty confident that Sundqvist is a bust based on some questionable logic.

Played in the SHL 2013-2015, then came over start of 15-16 season. This will be his his third season in the USA.

 

[ncm7772]

No the offensive production from the player he replaces (Maybe Wilson). I think we need to wait to see how the rest of the lineul shakes out before we fully judge. I'm just not a fan overpaying for a specific role player.

I also liked Sunnys potential as a 4C with size, great defensive awareness, PK ability, potential net front, and some untapped offensive potential. Others apparently weren't impressed and maybe my view of him ends up being wrong, but I think JR gave up on him too quickly and for a worse return than his potential dictated.

Ok, I got ya. Who knows, maybe I could be wrong with my less positive view on Sundqvist. Ideally, he'd still be around, but I understand where GMJR is coming from.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

No the offensive production from the player he replaces (Maybe Wilson). I think we need to wait to see how the rest of the lineul shakes out before we fully judge. I'm just not a fan overpaying for a specific role player.

I also liked Sunnys potential as a 4C with size, great defensive awareness, PK ability, potential net front, and some untapped offensive potential. Others apparently weren't impressed and maybe my view of him ends up being wrong, but I think JR gave up on him too quickly and for a worse return than his potential dictated.

That more or less describes at least 75% of AHLers though. I think Sundqvist as a final product is completely hazy right now so there's a bit of risk there. I don't think he has anything that we can't live without though, even needing centers in the pipeline as we do. If potential 4C is a guy's current description I think that's all that's needed to be known.

 

[vikingGoalie]

Someone refresh my memory, since I'm too lazy to look it up, please. Wasn't Sundqvist playing in Sweden for a couple of years before he went to W-B/S? And didn't they sign Cullen for two of those years, effectively blocking his opportunity to prove himself at the NHL level? Are we arguing that a handful of games should be enough to prove his readiness? Because there have been plenty of guys who were up and down in their first few seasons. Or are we arguing that after x amount of time in the minors there's no chance a guy can perform at the NHL level? How long was Dumo in the AHL?

Some of you seem pretty confident that Sundqvist is a bust based on some questionable logic.

yes he played 2 years in sweden, and played 3 years in WBS.

I think the penguins have done an excellent job of identifying which players on the WBS squad can contribute at the NHL level. Don't forget Sully coached Oskar himself for a time. Oskar looked lost on some of his shifts when he was with the big club. Where as others seized the opportunity presented to them.

My point stands though, it's quite a turn around from the Shero days, we are now as good as anyone in the NHL at finding/developing players for the big club.

It certainly is possible that Oskar figures it out and becomes a really good bottom 6 winger. But the question I would ask the hive.

Would you rather cut bait and get somone like Reeves, who I think will be a very good addition to our bottom 6 and fits our style to a tee, or do you want to wait and see if year SIX is when Oskar puts it all together and contributes to the big club. Also knowing he is no longer waiver exempt.

 

[turd]

Someone refresh my memory, since I'm too lazy to look it up, please. Wasn't Sundqvist playing in Sweden for a couple of years before he went to W-B/S? And didn't they sign Cullen for two of those years, effectively blocking his opportunity to prove himself at the NHL level? Are we arguing that a handful of games should be enough to prove his readiness? Because there have been plenty of guys who were up and down in their first few seasons. Or are we arguing that after x amount of time in the minors there's no chance a guy can perform at the NHL level? How long was Dumo in the AHL?

Some of you seem pretty confident that Sundqvist is a bust based on some questionable logic.

I don't know, can't you kinda go the other way with this too? That some people value him higher than he should be based on...I really don't know what? I think it's somewhat telling that the management group figured that Sundqvist was expendable. I think it's further telling that with all the injuries we had this season, and in the playoffs, that they went with Rowney over Sundqvist. Hell, they went with Archibald over Sundqvist at times. I get the impression that the guys in charge had soured on him.

That doesn't mean he can't or won't pan out. Maybe he becomes the next great bottom six center in the league. But I do think it's a clear sign that management and the coaching staff don't really project him as much of a difference maker in this league, and certainly someone that could be moved to address other needs. I have very little confidence that we're gonna look back at this move in the next 2-4 years and think "dang, too bad we let that guy slip away." Time will tell, I guess.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Someone refresh my memory, since I'm too lazy to look it up, please. Wasn't Sundqvist playing in Sweden for a couple of years before he went to W-B/S? And didn't they sign Cullen for two of those years, effectively blocking his opportunity to prove himself at the NHL level? Are we arguing that a handful of games should be enough to prove his readiness? Because there have been plenty of guys who were up and down in their first few seasons. Or are we arguing that after x amount of time in the minors there's no chance a guy can perform at the NHL level? How long was Dumo in the AHL?

Some of you seem pretty confident that Sundqvist is a bust based on some questionable logic.

Personally i dont think he's a bust, i just dont think he has all that much potential. I personally see him as ho hum 4th line center who best asset is merely that he is big and PK.

Reaves on the other hand is fast, good fore checker, can fight when needed, and IMO has more juice to squeeze offensively if put with some other 4th liners that dont suck.

Depending on what you believe, if the Pens has Lauzon (spelling?) rated high enough to use the 31OV on then this trade boils down (from the Pens perspective) as Sundqvist for Reaves straightup. Which based on my previous assessment above I see as a clear win. (Also with Sundqvist needing waivers to hit the AHL again)

Now from Stl perspective maybe there was a specific target sitting there at 31 taht gives them more perceived value on their end.

The most disappointing thing to me is the end of my dream of seeing Bjorkqvist, Sundqvist and Hornqvist on the ice at the same time in some way (though it for many reason was never going to happen anyway)

 

[madinsomniac]

Well I guess we can agree to disagree on that point. Reaves won't completely eliminate the crap that our guys have endured over the past couple of seasons, but he will decrease the potential number of incidents going forward. The league has it's share of tough guys and also it's share of "tough guys". We'll come to learn a lot about the competition with Reaves wearing a Pens jersey now.

Going back to Lemieux when has that ever been the case... look at tape of him getting crosschecked in the back with Marty Mac on the bench... or any of the many brusiers we employed through the years for him jagr and Sid... its never once stopped the cheap shots... thats a fact...

Its a fact that every single enforcer has had people cheap shotted on his respective team therefore its a fact that they don't eliminate it

As for cutting it down... prove it... i want stats otherwise its just an opinion...

The reality is all this guy will do is have five or six staged fights with guys who couldnt give a **** if they get punched.. even if he jumps a guy they will turtle and he wont get three shots in before its broken up... and he will get suspended far longer than the next guy who headshots sid

Hell hockey culture that mandates you not be intimidated by anyone will probably cause some goon to go out of his way to cripple us just to prove a point

 

[Shady Machine]

Someone refresh my memory, since I'm too lazy to look it up, please. Wasn't Sundqvist playing in Sweden for a couple of years before he went to W-B/S? And didn't they sign Cullen for two of those years, effectively blocking his opportunity to prove himself at the NHL level? Are we arguing that a handful of games should be enough to prove his readiness? Because there have been plenty of guys who were up and down in their first few seasons. Or are we arguing that after x amount of time in the minors there's no chance a guy can perform at the NHL level? How long was Dumo in the AHL?

Some of you seem pretty confident that Sundqvist is a bust based on some questionable logic.

Yup. His development curve was intentional from what I can tell. They brought him over and kept in WBS because they had the best 4C in the league not necessarily because Sunny was disappointing. They wanted him to work on his offense last year and he did. This was his year to really get a crack at the NHL

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Someone refresh my memory, since I'm too lazy to look it up, please. Wasn't Sundqvist playing in Sweden for a couple of years before he went to W-B/S? And didn't they sign Cullen for two of those years, effectively blocking his opportunity to prove himself at the NHL level? Are we arguing that a handful of games should be enough to prove his readiness? Because there have been plenty of guys who were up and down in their first few seasons. Or are we arguing that after x amount of time in the minors there's no chance a guy can perform at the NHL level? How long was Dumo in the AHL?

Some of you seem pretty confident that Sundqvist is a bust based on some questionable logic.

I'm basing my opinion on not being all that bothered to see him traded on his call-ups, and never seeing all that much potential in him. With the other call-ups (Guentzel, Wilson, Archibald), they did something at some point during the call-up that stood out as guys with better than 4th line potential. Sundqvist never looked any better than what we had in Carter Rowney.

To be honest, the only part of the trade that gave me pause was the 1st round pick. If this had been Reaves for Sundqvist straight up, would anyone even care?

 

[Peat]

If this had been Reaves for Sundqvist straight up, would anyone even care?

Yes, although not as much.

Maybe you didn't change your mind on him but it feels like there's been a big swing in forum opinion on Sundqvist since this trade has been announced.

 

[SCPens]

Going back to Lemieux when has that ever been the case... look at tape of him getting crosschecked in the back with Marty Mac on the bench... or any of the many brusiers we employed through the years for him jagr and Sid... its never once stopped the cheap shots... thats a fact...

Its a fact that every single enforcer has had people cheap shotted on his respective team therefore its a fact that they don't eliminate it

As for cutting it down... prove it... i want stats otherwise its just an opinion...

The reality is all this guy will do is have five or six staged fights with guys who couldnt give a **** if they get punched.. even if he jumps a guy they will turtle and he wont get three shots in before its broken up... and he will get suspended far longer than the next guy who headshots sid

Hell hockey culture that mandates you not be intimidated by anyone will probably cause some goon to go out of his way to cripple us just to prove a point

First off, read my post before responding with this garbage. I clearly said that Reaves won't eliminate the crap that we've seen over the past couple of seasons. Furthermore how can you ask for proof that he'll cut down on the potential number of incidents going forward and then spout an unsubstantiated remark like "it's never once stopped the cheap shots...that's a fact". Pure gold buddy. I want stats otherwise it's just an opinion.

 

[wgknestrick]

WTF was with this trade? Sexton/Botteril really giving it to us right before they leave?

This trade is all kinds of bad and we didn't even get the best player....and gave up a 1st for him. We also traded away a positional asset we needed for one we didn't.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

WTF was with this trade? Sexton/Botteril really giving it to us right before they leave?

This trade is all kinds of bad and we didn't even get the best player....and gave up a 1st for him. We also traded away a positional asset we needed for one we didn't.

Okay bud.

 

[The Old Master]

If this had been Reaves for Sundqvist straight up, would anyone even care?

there would be dancing in the streets.
edit; even if we had only moved down 2-3 picks

 

[AjaxTelamon]

yes he played 2 years in sweden, and played 3 years in WBS.

I think the penguins have done an excellent job of identifying which players on the WBS squad can contribute at the NHL level. Don't forget Sully coached Oskar himself for a time. Oskar looked lost on some of his shifts when he was with the big club. Where as others seized the opportunity presented to them.

He played 3 years in Sweden (since drafted), and two years in WBS. I'm not convinced he was developed well at all in Sweden aside from defensive play, didn't always get great ice time or PP time. They wanted to win over there, no interest in developing players. That was the first issue. Then he came over in 2015 to the US for a full season in WBS, and... He was deployed as a checker, all defensive zone draws. He wasn't even on the WBS 2nd PP unit. He didn't play with other offensive players. I complained about it a lot then, as you could see this coming a mile away. Then last year they finally decided to give the guy some PP time, and he started developing again.

But it's too late, he's subject to waivers. He looked really great in camp in 2014. But nothing since 2012 set the guy up for any kind of success in the NHL. I hope he does well, but at this point, we can't be fooling with him any more. Hopefully he gets some playing time as something other than a checker at the NHL level, or gets another year in the minors. I can see him being a late bloomer with someone.

 

[SCPens]

I'm basing my opinion on not being all that bothered to see him traded on his call-ups, and never seeing all that much potential in him. With the other call-ups (Guentzel, Wilson, Archibald), they did something at some point during the call-up that stood out as guys with better than 4th line potential. Sundqvist never looked any better than what we had in Carter Rowney.

To be honest, the only part of the trade that gave me pause was the 1st round pick. If this had been Reaves for Sundqvist straight up, would anyone even care?

I'd have to think the Blues management team would care because by no way does an unproven Sundqvist get you Reaves straight up......thus the need to swap picks.