Confirmed with Link: Pens trade 1st (No. 31) + Oskar Sundqvist for Ryan Reaves and Blues 2nd (No. 51)|Pt.2

[td_ice]

Reaves doesn't have to do something stupid to **** up your stars. He's caught big stars like Crosby, Kane and Toews and messed them up on clean hits.

If Niskanen or Wilson or Dubinsky go after Crosby and Malkin, Reaves is going to go after Panarin, Werenski, AO, Backstrom, Kuzy, etc

He will catch them and he will keep doing it, because he's very good at his job.

Deterrence is a lot different when others pay for your stupidity. **** up a drill, the teams does such suicides. Mess with another teams stars, your stars get bounced.

Eye for an eye. It's the only way to police this god awful ****** mess of a league.

Now that I have educated myself on what type of player he is, from the Blues fans and intelligent Pens fans such as yourself, I have no reservations about the trade anymore.

If we got a Matt Martin, or Clutterbuck, that can also fight if need be, than that works for me. Especially love hearing that he will go after the other teams stars if they mess with ours. Imo, that is the biggest DETERRENT you can have. (if such thing exists). I think players whose role it is to agitate or go after stars, care little if there is retribution against them. They expect it, they know it's coming. Part of the gig. But when you have a player that will go after the opposition stars, in kind, I actually do think that works. (I know it's a different game now, but I remember when Tocchet was on the team. Reportedly, early in a game, there where shenanigans against Mario. Tocchet told the Rangers bench. "next one that even touches Mario, I break Messier's leg". Mario skated free the rest of the game, haha.)



As for the bolded, that is exactly what J. Bombulie mentioned the other day.

"this isn't so much about deterrence, because I'm not sure how well that actually works. Let's call this what it is about. This is about justice."

He mentioned how the league isn't going to police itself, and that frankly the Pens are sick of it. And that if it is an eye for eye scenario, well then prepare yourself. And that's what the Pens did.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

That's the Chicago way.

 

[td_ice]

That's the Chicago way.

Definitely.

 

[66-30-33]

Besides Wilson who are some of the other players like Reaves that can play and go after the other teams top players? Clutterbuck, Martin, then what?

 

[Beauner]

I am not as mad about this trade as some, but we passed on a guy who is willing to play in the AHL THIS SEASON. It was a late first but Kostin could have helped this team as soon as the 18-19 season. Maybe sooner assuming he develops as expected

 

[66-30-33]

I am not as mad about this trade as some, but we passed on a guy who is willing to play in the AHL THIS SEASON. It was a late first but Kostin could have helped this team as soon as the 18-19 season. Maybe sooner assuming he develops as expected

I prefer to wait and see how this turns out. For all we know Kostin can be a Pouliot and and Lauzon the next Vlasic, which means we traded a bust and Sundqvist for a top dman and Reaves. This trade would be amazing for us then.

 

[Peat]

That's the Chicago way.

So we're gonna sign him to a 5 year contract at 4m with a full NTC?

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

What makes Ryan Reaves add to winning now vs what we already have in the bottom 6? The physicality is a nice element but not one we needed to win back to back cups and other than the centers likely moving on (Cullen and Bones) everyone else is still around. So it's not current bottom 6 plus Reaves in lineup, it's Reaves in lineup and one of Wilson, Kunitz, Kuhn, Archie, Rowney out

I would have Reaves in the lineup over any of those guys. Close with Wilson but not close with Kuhnhackl, Archibald, or Rowney. Kunitz is not even going to be on the team most likely. My hope is something like this come July 1st.

Guentzel-Crosby-Sheary
Rust-Malkin-Kessel
Hagelin-Hanzal-Hornqvist
Wilson-Boyle-Reaves

My dream scenario would get Duchene for the 3C but the cost looks too great. If we could get him for Maatta, Pouliot, and a 1st I would do it if we could find a good option for Maatta on the cheap. Does Vegas have a decent replacement for Maatta? We know we could give them a 2020 1st and they don't care. How much would Schmidt cost? So that would be my dream moves, use Maatta and picks/pieces for Duchene then get Schmidt to replace Maatta. If we did that I would not care if we did not have a 1st round pick for a couple years.

 

[Gurglesons]

I would have Reaves in the lineup over any of those guys. Close with Wilson but not close with Kuhnhackl, Archibald, or Rowney. Kunitz is not even going to be on the team most likely. My hope is something like this come July 1st.

Guentzel-Crosby-Sheary
Rust-Malkin-Kessel
Hagelin-Hanzal-Hornqvist
Wilson-Boyle-Reaves

My dream scenario would get Duchene for the 3C but the cost looks too great. If we could get him for Maatta, Pouliot, and a 1st I would do it if we could find a good option for Maatta on the cheap. Does Vegas have a decent replacement for Maatta? We know we could give them a 2020 1st and they don't care. How much would Schmidt cost? So that would be my dream moves, use Maatta and picks/pieces for Duchene then get Schmidt to replace Maatta. If we did that I would not care if we did not have a 1st round pick for a couple years.

I would 100% prefer Bones over Hanzal and I don't see how they won't cost the same.

I really like the idea of a Wilson - Boyle / Nate Thompson - Reaves fourth line.

 

[Darth Vitale]

These were in a system that did not promote his offensive game. Yeah they're just two goals - but the work put in prior to, and the shot placement are not luck...

Honestly, 'goons' hardly play 80 games a year in the NHL anymore. The fact he's around says a lot and I think if he comes in motivated to play just a fast game with hard forechecking he will be a fourth line Patric Hornqvist, with heavy hands to boot. I think with the right preparation, this guy under Coach Sullivan will be one "scary" fourth liner

--

Man you guys are still going on this one... lol

Whatever else we can say about the trade, these videos show there is potential there for Reaves to be more than a Godard / Glatt / etc could ever be. Whether he ends up being worth more than Kostin (which we can't be sure we would've picked him anyway unless I missed a Rutherford quote somewhere), only time will tell. I will say I don't put much stock in a bunch of scouts saying "he will end up a 1RW" at this point in his career.

 

[exHornet]

How much longer is this trade going to be debated? It's over, and done. Crosby wanted it, and he's got the vote that counts the most. JR wanted it. It seems that Sully wanted it. Just because a bunch of yahoos on HF don't want it, doesn't mean squat.

Get over it. It happened, it's over, and it's not going back. Let's meet back here in a year and see what happened.

 

[mpp9]

Besides Wilson who are some of the other players like Reaves that can play and go after the other teams top players? Clutterbuck, Martin, then what?

I wouldn't include Clutterbuck. He just throws hits. Not big enough to intimidate.

Kassian. Lucic. Tkachuk. Kane.

 

[#1GuinFan]

I am not as mad about this trade as some, but we passed on a guy who is willing to play in the AHL THIS SEASON. It was a late first but Kostin could have helped this team as soon as the 18-19 season. Maybe sooner assuming he develops as expected

If this were the case, he'd have gone much sooner than 31st.

 

[Jacob]

I am not as mad about this trade as some, but we passed on a guy who is willing to play in the AHL THIS SEASON. It was a late first but Kostin could have helped this team as soon as the 18-19 season. Maybe sooner assuming he develops as expected

Who cares if he's willing to play in the AHL? How does that willingness make him a better prospect or closer to the NHL?

 

[66-30-33]

I wouldn't include Clutterbuck. He just throws hits. Not big enough to intimidate.

Kassian. Lucic. Tkachuk. Kane.

If Kassian could play LW a him and Reaves, though Kassian sure leaves his feet alot.

 

[Cherpak]

I am not as mad about this trade as some, but we passed on a guy who is willing to play in the AHL THIS SEASON. It was a late first but Kostin could have helped this team as soon as the 18-19 season. Maybe sooner assuming he develops as expected

Sure seemed after the draft interview with JR that they were set on Lauzon regardless. Kostin may have never even been on their radar.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Now that I have educated myself on what type of player he is, from the Blues fans and intelligent Pens fans such as yourself, I have no reservations about the trade anymore.

If we got a Matt Martin, or Clutterbuck, that can also fight if need be, than that works for me. Especially love hearing that he will go after the other teams stars if they mess with ours. Imo, that is the biggest DETERRENT you can have. (if such thing exists). I think players whose role it is to agitate or go after stars, care little if there is retribution against them. They expect it, they know it's coming. Part of the gig. But when you have a player that will go after the opposition stars, in kind, I actually do think that works. (I know it's a different game now, but I remember when Tocchet was on the team. Reportedly, early in a game, there where shenanigans against Mario. Tocchet told the Rangers bench. "next one that even touches Mario, I break Messier's leg". Mario skated free the rest of the game, haha.)

As for the bolded, that is exactly what J. Bombulie mentioned the other day.

"this isn't so much about deterrence, because I'm not sure how well that actually works. Let's call this what it is about. This is about justice."

He mentioned how the league isn't going to police itself, and that frankly the Pens are sick of it. And that if it is an eye for eye scenario, well then prepare yourself. And that's what the Pens did.

I wish I could lie to myself and say the Pens don't need a nuclear option like Reaves, but this past season convinced me beyond a doubt that's it's time to go Old Testament on the rest of the league.

Guys will cheapshot Crosby and Malkin still, but now their stars will pay the same price in their own blood and broken bones. Reaves is going to bring a lot of pain to the Metro, and cowards like Niskanen, Wilson and Dubinsky brought it on their stars, so oh well, sucks to be those guys.



He's got a mayonnaise jar for every star...

I am not as mad about this trade as some, but we passed on a guy who is willing to play in the AHL THIS SEASON. It was a late first but Kostin could have helped this team as soon as the 18-19 season. Maybe sooner assuming he develops as expected

Just like with Forsberg, people will keep convincing themselves this was going to be the pick...

Hint: Notice a trend with the picks the last two years?

 

[Bishop7979]

I'm not sure if this article was mentioned in this thread, or its previous thread but it really does point out the pointlessness of having a player as "a deterrent".

http://nhl.nbcsports.com/2017/06/24/lets-talk-about-why-the-penguins-traded-for-ryan-reaves/

"Over the past four seasons the St. Louis Blues  Reaves’ former team  were on the receiving end of eight incidents that resulted in supplemental discipline from the NHL (suspension or fine), typically reserved for the dirtiest plays. The only team that was on the receiving end of more during that stretch was the Boston Bruins (10 –and keep in mind, this was a team that had Shawn Thornton and Milan Lucic for most of those years).

During one nine-day stretch in 2014 the Blues lost T.J. Oshie and David Backes to head shots. The two hits resulted in seven games in suspensions while Oshie and Backes both missed playoff games. Reaves was in the lineup both nights.

The next season Minnesota’s Marco Scandella was fined for an illegal hit to the head on Oshie. Last year New Jersey’s Bobby Farnham was hit with a four-game ban for taking a late, cheap run at Dmitri Jaskin while Reaves was on the ice. There are also several other borderline hits that did not result in supplemental discipline (like this, and this, and this).

This isn’t to suggest that Reaves is bad at his job or that he is somehow responsible for those plays.

It is to point out that dirty stuff is still going to happen to star players whether he  or any player like him  is there or not.

Players like Tom Wilson, and Brandon Dubinsky, and Bobby Farnham are paid a lot of money to rattle the cages of players like Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin. That is what they do. That is their role and they are going to do it whether there is a physical element in the other team’s lineup or not.

The only thing that can stop it is a significant crackdown from the league to hand out harsher punishments when it happens."

 

[molon labe]

I'm not sure if this article was mentioned in this thread, or its previous thread but it really does point out the pointlessness of having a player as "a deterrent".

http://nhl.nbcsports.com/2017/06/24/lets-talk-about-why-the-penguins-traded-for-ryan-reaves/

"Over the past four seasons the St. Louis Blues  Reaves’ former team  were on the receiving end of eight incidents that resulted in supplemental discipline from the NHL (suspension or fine), typically reserved for the dirtiest plays. The only team that was on the receiving end of more during that stretch was the Boston Bruins (10 –and keep in mind, this was a team that had Shawn Thornton and Milan Lucic for most of those years).

During one nine-day stretch in 2014 the Blues lost T.J. Oshie and David Backes to head shots. The two hits resulted in seven games in suspensions while Oshie and Backes both missed playoff games. Reaves was in the lineup both nights.

The next season Minnesota’s Marco Scandella was fined for an illegal hit to the head on Oshie. Last year New Jersey’s Bobby Farnham was hit with a four-game ban for taking a late, cheap run at Dmitri Jaskin while Reaves was on the ice. There are also several other borderline hits that did not result in supplemental discipline (like this, and this, and this).

This isn’t to suggest that Reaves is bad at his job or that he is somehow responsible for those plays.

It is to point out that dirty stuff is still going to happen to star players whether he  or any player like him  is there or not.

Players like Tom Wilson, and Brandon Dubinsky, and Bobby Farnham are paid a lot of money to rattle the cages of players like Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin. That is what they do. That is their role and they are going to do it whether there is a physical element in the other team’s lineup or not.

The only thing that can stop it is a significant crackdown from the league to hand out harsher punishments when it happens."

You've got to believe that management targeted Reaves to not simply play a role of enforcer, but be a serviceable 4th line player in Sully's system - the 'overpayment' is proof enough. Any old 6'+ 220lb+ guy can throw the body, few can do it at great speed then challenge anyone to finalize the matter in a fight.

However, the traditional role of enforcer is not the point here. A fast - yes he's pretty fast - HEAVY forecheck is extremely valuable on your fourth line. Look how much we were chipping and dumping pucks when we lost Letang during the playoffs, now imagine instead of Hagelin coming down on the puck Ryan Reaves is...chances are one or two of his hits are going to significantly impact the other team. We're looking at 7 game series of course.

Throughout the course of the regular season, there's also value in having a guy who can stick up for your teammates when games begin to get chippy. These hits they're trying to avoid aren't always sporadic, they happen over the course of a game that becomes physical. In the process of that happening the Pens have had zero guys who've been able to retaliate, and yes to this point it IS about retaliation. Dubinsky gives a little slew foot then gets blown up in the subsequent shift? Or his top line Centerman gets boarded? That's the nasty tool Sully now has like it or not that CAN help the Pens mantra of 'just play' ironically...as it allows our scorers to focus on that instead of guys like Malkin feeling like he's got to defend his teammates. And don't forget Letang's knack of focusing on retaliation the moment a game gets physical. If Reaves can come in and tell our guys to let him handle the nasty stuff, I believe that it will truly open some things up... And apparently Sid and Tanger believe so too as they were among the first to openly praise the addition to the team.

Edit: I do completely agree the league needs to crack down on the post-whistle stuff and head hunting... don't get it wrong here. Some things make hockey, hockey - and what we've seen the past few seasons is just dangerous and embarassing... but they're obviously content to let it happen, especially in the playoffs.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I'm not sure if this article was mentioned in this thread, or its previous thread but it really does point out the pointlessness of having a player as "a deterrent".

http://nhl.nbcsports.com/2017/06/24/lets-talk-about-why-the-penguins-traded-for-ryan-reaves/

"Over the past four seasons the St. Louis Blues  Reaves’ former team  were on the receiving end of eight incidents that resulted in supplemental discipline from the NHL (suspension or fine), typically reserved for the dirtiest plays. The only team that was on the receiving end of more during that stretch was the Boston Bruins (10 –and keep in mind, this was a team that had Shawn Thornton and Milan Lucic for most of those years).

During one nine-day stretch in 2014 the Blues lost T.J. Oshie and David Backes to head shots. The two hits resulted in seven games in suspensions while Oshie and Backes both missed playoff games. Reaves was in the lineup both nights.

The next season Minnesota’s Marco Scandella was fined for an illegal hit to the head on Oshie. Last year New Jersey’s Bobby Farnham was hit with a four-game ban for taking a late, cheap run at Dmitri Jaskin while Reaves was on the ice. There are also several other borderline hits that did not result in supplemental discipline (like this, and this, and this).

This isn’t to suggest that Reaves is bad at his job or that he is somehow responsible for those plays.

It is to point out that dirty stuff is still going to happen to star players whether he  or any player like him  is there or not.

Players like Tom Wilson, and Brandon Dubinsky, and Bobby Farnham are paid a lot of money to rattle the cages of players like Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin. That is what they do. That is their role and they are going to do it whether there is a physical element in the other team’s lineup or not.

The only thing that can stop it is a significant crackdown from the league to hand out harsher punishments when it happens."

A big thing this sort of thinking overlooks -- and has been pointed out numerous times in this thread -- is having Reaves means other teams' best players will now have to have their heads on a swivel as well.

Can Reaves prevent Tom Wilson from running Crosby? Likely not. But what he can do is make it so Backstrom has to deal with the same sort of abuse that our star guys do, instead of having an afternoon skate without anyone breathing on him.

Can he stop Gudas from a cheap shot on Malkin? Likely not. But now Giroux has to deal with someone smearing him into the boards when he's on the ice.

Too often, it was only the Pens' best players who had to endure 60 minutes of abuse while the other team's top guys could skate around without having to worry about being hit. Now they're on a level playing field because they'll no longer go unscathed.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Who cares if he's willing to play in the AHL? How does that willingness make him a better prospect or closer to the NHL?

Yeah, I have to agree with this. There's even a downside to him playing in the AHL right away - that ELC will be used up mighty quickly and those ELC years are worth their weight in gold to a team like the Penguins.

Obviously this isn't a reason to avoid a prospect, far from it, but it's not all positive either. That said...

Sure seemed after the draft interview with JR that they were set on Lauzon regardless. Kostin may have never even been on their radar.

I got the same vibe.

 

[Peat]

When was the last time they took someone who was playing in Russia? I get the feeling their European scouting network is big in Sweden & Finland and not so much elsewhere.

 

[Giskard]

I am not as mad about this trade as some, but we passed on a guy who is willing to play in the AHL THIS SEASON. It was a late first but Kostin could have helped this team as soon as the 18-19 season. Maybe sooner assuming he develops as expected

Meh it reminds me of Angelo Esposito, an injured player that was passed on through the draft until somebody (us) took a flyer on him.

 

[Giskard]

When was the last time they took someone who was playing in Russia? I get the feeling their European scouting network is big in Sweden & Finland and not so much elsewhere.

I would say Pechursky ... Zlobin were already in the QMJHL and Pavlychev has been in the US for years before been drafted.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Russia's tough to scout in a lot of ways because the travel times are insane for teams, and the Russian clubs are VERY protective of their promising players.

If you don't have the resources to have a dedicated Russian scout, it makes sense to scout the other Central European and Scandinavian leagues more heavily IMO.