Pre-Game Talk: Pens off till Wednesday... and guess who's back at practice!

[Will Hunting]

Well, he has played 3C or higher up the lineup since pretty much his sophomore season. I don't think that's all too controversial.

Yes, but let´s accept that he´s nothing more than a 4C now. Marcel Goc=Manny Malhotra. Really. Craig Adams has more pts than him. I have no problem with him filling that spot and that´s why people can stand him, but let´s not pretend that we would be OK with him as a 3C. He´s an offensive blackhole now.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Well, he has played 3C or higher up the lineup since pretty much his sophomore season. I don't think that's all too controversial.

He also has THREE points in 37 games. Three. With an average TOI of 12:23. And before you say, "yeah but he's been playing with Craig Adams"...Adams has a point more in almost 3 fewer minutes, on average.

John Scott has one fewer point in 16 games this season.

I've been a strong advocate of trading Brandon Sutter on this board, well until we got Perron without dealing him, but even if we did it'd be Nick Spaling over Goc as the 3C imo. At least until Sundqvist is ready or we acquire someone else if forced to deal Sutter away.

Goc has been a rather large disappointment this season.

 

[Will Hunting]

Wilson is kinda obsessed with his love for Greiss and Goc, and his dislike for Spaling and Sutter. According to him, Kunitz is really good this season.
Maybe post that article discussing Kunitz next?

Yeah, pretty much this. I thought that he was solid for quite a long time, but his recent obsession with Corsi and his bias towards and against some players are absolutely pathetic. He´s pretty annoying more often than not. Extremely predictable too

 

[IcedCapp]

I thought Johnston had referenced Hornqvist as a guy who's comfortable on either side, ditto Kapanen and Bennett. But maybe I am misremembering (TM Roger Clemens).

I thought the opposite - that Hornqvist was one of the guys he referenced as NOT being a two-wing guy

 

[Waffle Fries]

I thought Johnston had referenced Hornqvist as a guy who's comfortable on either side, ditto Kapanen and Bennett. But maybe I am misremembering (TM Roger Clemens).

I don't know how far back that presser was, or if anyone has any access to it. But I thought, and maybe I'm misremembering as well, he mentioned a list of guys who could play both wings, and then said something along the lines of "and then there's guys who are stronger on one side like Hornqvist"

I thought the opposite - that Hornqvist was one of the guys he referenced as NOT being a two-wing guy

That's how I remembered it.

 

[ProgOg]

Found the quote. He said Hornqvist can't, and that Bennett can play both wings.

 

[Deutschland Dangler]

Well I did not say that Goc at 3C is ideal for the Penguins in their current situation. Far from it. I just don't think calling him a 3C is insane seeing that he's been at least that for his entire career until he came to Pittsburgh.

Also, everyone that expects points from him in his current role will always be disappointed. I knew people would start to turn on him at some point because of his lack of production as soon as he was brought in. Seems like it's happening.

 

[DoktorZaius]

I thought the opposite - that Hornqvist was one of the guys he referenced as NOT being a two-wing guy

Which makes perfect sense, I think...Hornqvist (for a European) plays a very North American style game...you want him in prime position to compete for the puck, win board battles, drive the net and backcheck effectively.

 

[IcedCapp]

Well I did not say that Goc at 3C is ideal for the Penguins in their current situation. Far from it. I just don't think calling him a 3C is insane seeing that he's been at least that for his entire career until he came to Pittsburgh.

Also, everyone that expects points from him in his current role will always be disappointed. I knew people would start to turn on him at some point because of his lack of production as soon as he was brought in. Seems like it's happening.

i wouldn't mind seeing Kunitz - Goc - Bennett before I say Goc can't be a good 3C on this team.

 

[MrBurghundy]

We really do seem to have way too many RH shots. I never thought I'd say that.

Perron, Hornqvist, Comeau, Downie, Bennett, Sutter, and Rust all in our top-9 right now. Kapanen and Sundqvist are too down the road.

 

[IcedCapp]

We really do seem to have way too many RH shots. I never thought I'd say that.

Perron, Hornqvist, Comeau, Downie, Bennett, Sutter, and Rust all in our top-9 right now. Kapanen and Sundqvist are too down the road.

our next trade - if there is one - really needs to be a LHS top-6 player.

 

[Will Hunting]

Well I did not say that Goc at 3C is ideal for the Penguins in their current situation. Far from it. I just don't think calling him a 3C is insane seeing that he's been at least that for his entire career until he came to Pittsburgh.

Also, everyone that expects points from him in his current role will always be disappointed. I knew people would start to turn on him at some point because of his lack of production as soon as he was brought in. Seems like it's happening.

I mean, he´s fine where he is. I don´t love him and I don´t hate him for that matter. His finish and creativity is pretty bad, his defense is pretty good. He´s just "OK", doing his non-flashy job. The thing is that Ryan Wilson was talking about how Corsi is a proof that Goc is not worse than Sutter and how can he be a competent 3C which makes Sutter easily expendable. Now, that´s insane. Sutter is twice the player than Goc is now, especially if we are talking about 3C duties. Goc has played quite a few occasional shifts with 3rd liners this season. He was still far from a threat.

 

[Deutschland Dangler]

I mean, he´s fine where he is. I don´t love him and I don´t hate him for that matter. His finish and creativity is pretty bad, his defense is pretty good. He´s just "OK", doing his non-flashy job. The thing is that Ryan Wilson was talking about how Corsi is a proof that Goc is not worse than Sutter and how can he be a competent 3C which makes Sutter easily expendable. Now, that´s insane. Sutter is twice the player than Goc is now, especially if we are talking about 3C duties.

Oh hell no, I'm not defending the blog post by that guy. That's not my point at all, Sutter is clearly better.

 

[madinsomniac]

Corsi, like many stats, is an observation... not the say all end all for facts. If a guy walks into a room 100 times and it catches on fire 100 times its reasonable to suspect that he is lighting it on fire, but you couldnt and shouldnt convict the guy without further proof.

When you look at possession stats, or plus minus, or even scoring...any stat really... it gives you a piece of the puzzle, but here is much you need to find out about a guy from watching him, verifying his linemates and system, and the opponants... if you go off pure stats you are just lying to yourself... now some stats will end up being an accurate reflection of a player, but again you have to watch to see...

 

[Will Hunting]

Oh hell no, I'm not defending the blog post by that guy. That's not my point at all, Sutter is clearly better.

Yeah, fair enough. Goc has a really frustrating role here, but someone has to play it.. He´s doing well in regard of that our 4th line isn´t hurting us THAT much. His most frequent linemates 5v5 this season are Adams (125 mins), Scuderi(118 mins), his other linemates are Spaling(79 mins), Sill(78 mins), Downie(69 mins), Comeau(59 mins). Not great, for sure.. But he has still seen some time with 3rd liners this year and didn´t even show offensive flashes, at all. So that´s it.. nice defense, non-existing offense.. which is "acceptable" for 4C.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Found the quote. He said Hornqvist can't, and that Bennett can play both wings.

Thanks.

Well I did not say that Goc at 3C is ideal for the Penguins in their current situation. Far from it. I just don't think calling him a 3C is insane seeing that he's been at least that for his entire career until he came to Pittsburgh.

Also, everyone that expects points from him in his current role will always be disappointed. I knew people would start to turn on him at some point because of his lack of production as soon as he was brought in. Seems like it's happening.

The thing is, it's fairly obvious that Goc needs ice time to produce. I've never liked him as our 4C, and always felt he had to play more. Just not here, imo. I would not be willing to give him that opportunity at his advancing age. I'd give Sundqvist a chance to prove he CAN'T produce as a 3C because he has upside. Goc is 31. If he can only produce on a third line, let him sign with a non-contender.

our next trade - if there is one - really needs to be a LHS top-6 player.

Yes. Or Phil Kessel.

 

[MtlPenFan]

All coaches will say player X can play either side, especially if it fits a particular vision they have for playing certain lines. I'd take that with a grain of salt.

As for Beau playing with Geno, it's about ****ing time.

I get the whole "having to earn it" stuff that coaches and media and even some fans throw out there, but enough is enough. I know that he's been often injured and that's not on coaching or management, but in about 7 days Brian Rust has played more in the top six than Beau Bennett has in almost 60 NHL games.


I don't know about you guys, but I think that's bat**** crazy.

 

[Deutschland Dangler]

Yeah, fair enough. Goc has a really frustrating role here, but someone has to play it.. He´s doing well in regard of that our 4th line isn´t hurting us THAT much. His most frequent linemates 5v5 this season are Adams (125 mins), Scuderi(118 mins), his other linemates are Spaling(79 mins), Sill(78 mins), Downie(69 mins), Comeau(59 mins). Not great, for sure.. But he has still seen some time with 3rd liners this year and didn´t even show offensive flashes, at all. So that´s it.. nice defense, non-existing offense.. which is "acceptable" for 4C.

To be quite honest, I don't believe that anyone whose opinion counts (that sounds offensive but it's not) is frustrated with him at all. Neither the coaching staff, management, himself or his teammates. I think he has gotten very clear instructions to prioritize defensive responsibility and making safe plays above everything else. He' starts mostly in the defensive zone, wins faceoffs and is a good PKer and while he's neither really fast nor flashy, he still has some legs and puck skills. He's doing what he's doing with mostly not very good linemates and for a $1.2m contract that ends after the season.
Of course I have nothing to back up the claim that he's doing exactly what he's asked to do by the coaching/management (and doing it rather well) but it seems like a more logical explanation than assuming that his offensive ability just went away completely the second that he landed in Pittsburgh.

So yeah, I don't think anyone is really frustrated with him, except people that expect him to score, of course.

 

[DoktorZaius]

I think part of what MJ is trying to do with the BB/Sutter pairing is that complement each other's games perfectly...what I mean by that is Sutter plays more like a wing...shoot first mentality, isn't a great playmaker. BB, on the other hand, plays much more like a center, pass first, will only shoot when he has too. I'm hugeeee on Bennett, so i'd definitely like to see him in the top 6...but I think there are reasons why BB and Suttsy look good together, and because of that fit, I'm confident that no other wing we have (even Perron) can raise that 3rd lines 5-on-5 production like Beau can.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

Well, for Geno, it's a lot easier to knock out that sorry *** than it is to carry him all over the ice . . .

The old Brunei meat anchor strikes again!

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Sidenote: how did I never notice abysmal = bylsma?

I see "a-Bylsma" every time is read abysmal. Dyslexia FWT!

 

[drpepper]

I get a little worried when I see HCMJ say things like Bennett can switch and be effective as a RW or LW. Bennett's clearly a better player as a RW. Or like Downie can play with anyone. Downie has a lot to bring to the table, but he is ideally not a top 6 winger playing with the one of the two best centers in the world.

There is pumping up your players and dealing with the players as you have them healthy and on the roster. And then there is being obtuse.

 

[LionelHutz*]

I see "a-Bylsma" every time is read abysmal. Dyslexia FWT!

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

I get a little worried when I see HCMJ say things like Bennett can switch and be effective as a RW or LW. Bennett's clearly a better player as a RW. Or like Downie can play with anyone. Downie has a lot to bring to the table, but he is ideally not a top 6 winger playing with the one of the two best centers in the world.

There is pumping up your players and dealing with the players as you have them healthy and on the roster. And then there is being obtuse.

WTF should he say? "Nah, Downie is a bit of a headcase that isnt any better than a bottom 4 grinder." Way to boost morale.

 

[ProgOg]

Downie played great with Stamkos and Giroux. With the way injuries are going, he is a good option in the top 6.