Post-Game Talk: Pens @ Flames: Classic Sully Pens

ChaosAgent

Registered User
May 8, 2018
17,985
12,239
Using a retention spot on Karlsson wouldn't be a big deal provided we are getting value back that justifies it.

We don't have a lot of guys we'd be wanting to sell that would need those slots for. If you used it on Jake this year, it goes away at the end of the year. Raks and Rust are too long for a team to justify paying the extra value for retention when the cap is going up.

I don't even know where you'd send EK to. Most cup contenders couldn't fit him right now.

I think in the off-season someone is going to look at getting EK for 6-7M AAV as a deal.

And if teams aren't interested in him at that level with an off-season to plan, it tells us that he's thought of as a net negative around the league.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Victor Z

Big Friggin Dummy

Registered User
Feb 22, 2019
24,581
23,211
Maybe they just stop spending to the cap. The $ value of the core's contracts also isn't their cap hits right now.

I think the salary on coaching thing and not wanting to pay 2 coaches will be differently compartmentalized under FSG. Also, EK himself is going to ask out. He wants to win, it won't happen here
They have to be smart about how they spend imo. I want this team to make the shift to taking on bad contracts for assets once the tear down begins. Though that ship probably sailed once the cap started to jump again--much easier to weaponize cap space like that in a flat cap situation.
 

ChaosAgent

Registered User
May 8, 2018
17,985
12,239
They have to be smart about how they spend imo. I want this team to make the shift to taking on bad contracts for assets once the tear down begins. Though that ship probably sailed once the cap started to jump again--much easier to weaponize cap space like that in a flat cap situation.

I think the asset you get in retaining on EK65 is better than you get in taking on the Granlund contracts of the world. You can also do both.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Big Friggin Dummy

Big Friggin Dummy

Registered User
Feb 22, 2019
24,581
23,211
They could easily do this and also perhaps have had better results by not paying over the hill vets to do mediocre-to-poor jobs.
Yeah, I am no fan of the WBS dudes by any means, but even as someone who has zero hope there's an impact guy in this organizational coffers--there's no reason not to run a mostly WBS forward corps moving forward. If they're fine with playing shit players--and they have been for years--play *cheap* shit players who may have some upside, albeit miniscule. /shrug
 

Coastal Kev

There will be "I told you so's" Bet on it
Feb 16, 2013
16,783
5,041
The Low Country, SC
Everybody is blaming Sullivan, honestly this team is so bad it really doesn't matter. By the time we're good again Sully likely isn't here (3-5 years from now). I honestly don't concern myself with the ditching Sully crowd because the core is aging out. My focus is on the future, that's it! Maximizing assets, accruing picks and prospects, extracting good value. If more ppl would adapt to that mindset they'd likely enjoy the next few years a lot more than they will. Eventually we'll be a good team. You just can't hold onto the relics here and sincerely believe you had a chance. For the record I thought we should have unloaded Jake and Rusty two years ago at the deadline. Likely be better off in the scheme of things.
You are not factoring in how Sully bullied his GM's to get this soft, one trick pony roster. He sabotaged JR and owned hextall. It's looking the same thing currently with Dubas.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Victor Z

SEALBound

Fancy Gina Carano
Sponsor
Jun 13, 2010
40,797
19,016
Yeah, I'm operating under the assumption that one of the retention spots is 100% gonna be EK. But I'm sure the team would rather take back some trash on expiring or close to expiring deals rather than eat $5+ million in retained money. This ownership won't even fire the coach that's been trash since 2019 because of contractual obligations, I doubt they're keen on retaining to get some value out of EK.
It's common sense though to an extent. EK has 4 years left at $10mil. Are they wanting to retain 50% for 4 years? No probably not. $1mil for 3 years if it gets you a 1st? Maybe. Looking 3 years ahead, we don't have anyone that would make sense to retain on.

Assuming we lose to EDM tonight (a near certainty) and beat Columbus (maybe), I really think Dubas' plan hinges on what happens against Washington on Thursday. If we beat the Caps, I believe he'll still think the playoffs are attainable, and willl play the trade deadline accordingly - thoughts?
I do not think it will matter. I think Dubas will make the deals he wants to make regardless.

Say they win the next three - they STILL need a couple trades to shake things up at the very, very least.
 

ChaosAgent

Registered User
May 8, 2018
17,985
12,239
It's common sense though to an extent. EK has 4 years left at $10mil. Are they wanting to retain 50% for 4 years? No probably not. $1mil for 3 years if it gets you a 1st? Maybe. Looking 3 years ahead, we don't have anyone that would make sense to retain on.


I do not think it will matter. I think Dubas will make the deals he wants to make regardless.

Say they win the next three - they STILL need a couple trades to shake things up at the very, very least.

I think it's going to be a lot more than $1m/year of retention unless the acquiring team has a Granlund contract hanging around. Maybe they would.
 

SEALBound

Fancy Gina Carano
Sponsor
Jun 13, 2010
40,797
19,016
I think in the off-season someone is going to look at getting EK for 6-7M AAV as a deal.

And if teams aren't interested in him at that level with an off-season to plan, it tells us that he's thought of as a net negative around the league.
Yeah, I don't think they are retaining $3mil for 3 more years and I think that is absolutely independent and irrelevant of what people in the league think his value is. When was the last time a playoff-hopeful team retained that much on a guy like EK?

Now, if you're looking at a major player coming back the other way that you think helps and they come in at say $7mil and you want to retain $1.5mil to split the difference, then that's palatable. For example, going to Ottawa - Norris and Chabot are at $8mil. If you wanted either of them back and send them EK, retaining $1mil for EK to split the difference would make a bit of sense.
 

Big Friggin Dummy

Registered User
Feb 22, 2019
24,581
23,211
I think the asset you get in retaining on EK65 is better than you get in taking on the Granlund contracts of the world. You can also do both.
I'd be really surprised if this team retained the 50% they'd need to in order to get anybody legitimately interested in EK. One GM--Dubas--was any sort of interested in trading for him this summer, and that was after the whole world knew he wanted out of SJ and following a 100pt season. Without 50% retained, and again, I have no faith in this team taking it on the chin like that, the line of suitors for EK is probably nonexistent. Particularly after a season of Sullivan "fixing his game" or whatever the f*** stupid shit he said after the team got gifted EK. :laugh:
 

the penitent

Registered User
Feb 20, 2023
154
203
It's common sense though to an extent. EK has 4 years left at $10mil. Are they wanting to retain 50% for 4 years? No probably not. $1mil for 3 years if it gets you a 1st? Maybe. Looking 3 years ahead, we don't have anyone that would make sense to retain on.


I do not think it will matter. I think Dubas will make the deals he wants to make regardless.

Say they win the next three - they STILL need a couple trades to shake things up at the very, very lea
It's common sense though to an extent. EK has 4 years left at $10mil. Are they wanting to retain 50% for 4 years? No probably not. $1mil for 3 years if it gets you a 1st? Maybe. Looking 3 years ahead, we don't have anyone that would make sense to retain on.


I do not think it will matter. I think Dubas will make the deals he wants to make regardless.

Say they win the next three - they STILL need a couple trades to shake things up at the very, very least.
I agree with you - they SHOULD be making trades, but not to keeping hanging on to this insane notion that they can make the playoffs - they can't! Games in hand aside, the schedule from here on out won't allow it.
 

SEALBound

Fancy Gina Carano
Sponsor
Jun 13, 2010
40,797
19,016
I think it's going to be a lot more than $1m/year of retention unless the acquiring team has a Granlund contract hanging around. Maybe they would.
Which is why they would likely keep EK next year and likely the next. Then at summer before his last year or at the TDL, then sure, retain whatever you want to get value from the last bit of the contract. But that's a different situation.

The only thing that would get EK out of Pit is a reverse-style trade (quantity for quality) or a player-for-player swap (like Weber for Subban). In either case, I can't see there being major retention by us if there are multiple years on the deal.
 

NewAgeOutlaw

Belie Dat!
Jul 15, 2011
30,201
7,989
412/724
It is really sad that I fell asleep during the 2nd intermission, assumed they blew the game late, and found that my suspicion was correct when I checked to see what happened.
 

ChaosAgent

Registered User
May 8, 2018
17,985
12,239
Yeah, I don't think they are retaining $3mil for 3 more years and I think that is absolutely independent and irrelevant of what people in the league think his value is. When was the last time a playoff-hopeful team retained that much on a guy like EK?

Now, if you're looking at a major player coming back the other way that you think helps and they come in at say $7mil and you want to retain $1.5mil to split the difference, then that's palatable. For example, going to Ottawa - Norris and Chabot are at $8mil. If you wanted either of them back and send them EK, retaining $1mil for EK to split the difference would make a bit of sense.

The problem is "a guy like EK." What is he? Recent Norris winner, sure. But there was almost no market for him this summer. We hear a lot that he's a net negative. And now we know that despite his 5-on-5 offensive acumen he is dogshit, terrible, putrid as a PPQB. It's possible that he's an offense-first guy that the league has determined the juice is not worth the squeeze. Similar to how little Kane was just valued.
 

Gurglesons

Registered User
Dec 18, 2009
92,582
74,773
San Diego, CA
last-train-tocool.blogspot.com
I don’t think MP returns a 1st. It’d be cool if he did, but I think he is very overrated by Penguins fans and is pretty common skill set wise across the league. He also has no bite.

The problem is "a guy like EK." What is he? Recent Norris winner, sure. But there was almost no market for him this summer. We hear a lot that he's a net negative. And now we know that despite his 5-on-5 offensive acumen he is dogshit, terrible, putrid as a PPQB. It's possible that he's an offense-first guy that the league has determined the juice is not worth the squeeze. Similar to how little Kane was just valued.

There was a market for him. San Jose was just unwilling to make it work.

If you are willing to eat 50% of his contract teams will be lining up. Especially if you take back a contract.
 

ChaosAgent

Registered User
May 8, 2018
17,985
12,239
I'd be really surprised if this team retained the 50% they'd need to in order to get anybody legitimately interested in EK. One GM--Dubas--was any sort of interested in trading for him this summer, and that was after the whole world knew he wanted out of SJ and following a 100pt season. Without 50% retained, and again, I have no faith in this team taking it on the chin like that, the line of suitors for EK is probably nonexistent. Particularly after a season of Sullivan "fixing his game" or whatever the f*** stupid shit he said after the team got gifted EK. :laugh:

The fact there was no market for him last year tells you the league thinks he is a losing player at this point. Regardless of winning an award for achieving an impressive point milestone. I don't think Sullivan is alone in his assessment of Karlsson.
 

Big Friggin Dummy

Registered User
Feb 22, 2019
24,581
23,211
It's his contract. That's the reason nobody was interested this summer beyond Dubas. Dubas could make it work because the team had roughly the same cap hit in deadweight/bad fits, he just had to find a taker for a lame Jeff Petry. The Canes were "call us if everything else falls through", and nobody else was interested beyond casually kicking the tires.

EK's still an extremely good skater and very good playmaker, imo. His first handful of games everyone was laughing at how absurd he was out there, and how dumb we all felt for comparing Letang to EK in terms of transition and offensive ability. Then, he settled into trying to fit into the system and coaching, and within a month people hated the dude. :laugh:

EK's fine. He just ended up on a dogshit team with a coach who has his head up his ass. /shrug
 

Zirakzigil

Global Moderator
Jul 5, 2010
29,564
23,968
Canada
Did @Zirakzigil make it home safe or have they quit being a fan?
Made it home just before midnight, roads have been awful, had about 2 feet of snow in the last 48hrs. Leaving the dome is always a mess, now there is mass construction on top of it.

Pens should of won that game, they were the far better team for about 47min. I knew once Kadri scored they were in trouble. The 3-1 goal completely deflated the Flames and the building. Kadri said afterword's he was waiting for someone to do something once he had the puck. When the Pens did nothing he went to the net and no one stopped him.

My game notes:
- Crosby is GOAT, makes things look effortless, was insane on faceoffs
- Geno, looked tired in the 1st, much better for the last 2, I think the long ceremony cased the issues
- DOC, was all over, plays with a lot of compete, not a 1st liner though
- Smith, barely noticed him to be honest
- PP looked decent, wish they would shoot a little more, glad they split up Sid and Geno
- Karlsson coughs the puck up with regularity, looks way worse in person than on TV
- Letang was brain dead most of the game, was either lazy or making dumb decisions
- Puusy had a good game from what I saw
- Jarry, dont really fault him on the 1st goal, Letang was useless on that play and Sharangovich has a nasty nasty wrist shot, would of liked him to stop that one, but that was a nasty shot, other 3 goals were at the opposite end of the ice so I didnt have good views of them
 
  • Like
Reactions: BusinessGoose

Coastal Kev

There will be "I told you so's" Bet on it
Feb 16, 2013
16,783
5,041
The Low Country, SC
Can we start adding players that have some jam? Guys like Rakell, Graves & Smith suck the life out of me. Yea, Rakell's the best of that lot, but when he's not scoring he skates away from everything. I see Puus that's half the size and will battle 10x as hard in the dirty areas. Same thing with Graves, put POJ's mindset in his body and the dude would be a beast.
Smith is soul sucking. His only saving grace is that Jeff Carter get as many minutes and even worse at sucking the energy out of the team. All those millions that Sully makes to keep and absolute farce like Carter in the lineup every night. But hey, let's ruin any shot of ever seeing if Poulin can play in the league.
 

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
55,856
47,065
The way Sully's had to answer for zilch over the past handful of playoff series is wild, man. Had zero answer for Trotz's Isles forecheck in 2019; swept. Rode the worst pairing I can remember since the XGen days in JJ-Schultz all series against the Habs in 2020. Just sat by and refused to change anything at forward or even try another option in goal as GCRust and Jarry shit their pants against the Isles in 2021. The team was just wholly unprepared to close out the 3-1 series lead against the Rangers, and their PK allowed something nuts like 6 goals in those final 3 games to lose the series.

It's just bonkers. I don't even want the guy fired cuz I'm under the delusion it'll save the remainder of the era or this season. This team's been f***ing cooked for years. I want Sully fired cuz he sucks, and this team would at least show they have a spine in firing him, even if they continued to trundle along without a brain.

Any single one of those things would have resulted in most coaches being canned. Sullivan's been allowed to amass an entire list of "fireable offenses" and there's nary a word about him being on the hot seat.

It truly is insane.
 

ChaosAgent

Registered User
May 8, 2018
17,985
12,239
It's his contract. That's the reason nobody was interested this summer beyond Dubas. Dubas could make it work because the team had roughly the same cap hit in deadweight/bad fits, he just had to find a taker for a lame Jeff Petry. The Canes were "call us if everything else falls through", and nobody else was interested beyond casually kicking the tires.

EK's still an extremely good skater and very good playmaker, imo. His first handful of games everyone was laughing at how absurd he was out there, and how dumb we all felt for comparing Letang to EK in terms of transition and offensive ability. Then, he settled into trying to fit into the system and coaching, and within a month people hated the dude. :laugh:

EK's fine. He just ended up on a dogshit team with a coach who has his head up his ass. /shrug

Sure, but the other poster was saying we would only have to retain $1m. If there was a 2 team market for him at $10m, why would the market explode at $9m?

At $6-7m he would have a much stronger market and I hope we hold our nose at the $3-4m of retention and take the plunge.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Big Friggin Dummy

Big Friggin Dummy

Registered User
Feb 22, 2019
24,581
23,211
FWIW, I agree EK is horrendous defensively. But he's always been horrendous defensively. A team with any wits about them allows EK to do EK things and worries about covering his deficiencies in other ways. But the Penguins are a chronically unserious team.
Sure, but the other poster was saying we would only have to retain $1m. If there was a 2 team market for him at $10m, why would the market explode at $9m?

At $6-7m he would have a much stronger market and I hope we hold our nose at the $3-4m of retention and take the plunge.
Yeah, if/when EK asks to be traded--and hopefully that happens in the next 6 months, for all parties involved--you're gonna have to retain 50% if you want anything of value back. SJ refused to retain much and everybody knew that, so only Dubas was interested because it just so happened that he inherited enough of Hextall's trash to equal out to EK's cap hit. I still don't think this team retains enough to get anything for EK though, hope I'm wrong.
 

Gurglesons

Registered User
Dec 18, 2009
92,582
74,773
San Diego, CA
last-train-tocool.blogspot.com
FWIW, I agree EK is horrendous defensively. But he's always been horrendous defensively. A team with any wits about them allows EK to do EK things and worries about covering his deficiencies in other ways. But the Penguins are a chronically unserious team.

Yeah, if/when EK asks to be traded--and hopefully that happens in the next 6 months, for all parties involved--you're gonna have to retain 50% if you want anything of value back. SJ refused to retain much and everybody knew that, so only Dubas was interested because it just so happened that he inherited enough of Hextall's trash to equal out to EK's cap hit. I still don't think this team retains enough to get anything for EK though, hope I'm wrong.

It makes more sense for us to just hang onto EK for a few more years then sell him when we only have to retain 50% at the deadline and an additional year.

He’ll probably pop back up to an 80+ pt player once we get a functional powerplay.
 

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
55,856
47,065
FWIW, I agree EK is horrendous defensively. But he's always been horrendous defensively. A team with any wits about them allows EK to do EK things and worries about covering his deficiencies in other ways. But the Penguins are a chronically unserious team.
And not to continue to be a broken record, but this is one of my biggest issues with Sullivan and why I can't stand the guy. Instead of ever playing a player to their strengths, he tries to "fix" them and it results in the player being a much worse version of themselves.

If a team acquires Erik Karlsson, they do so knowing they're getting a riverboat gambler. They don't acquire him and then try to turn him into Brian Dumoulin with a better shot.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Big Friggin Dummy

Big Friggin Dummy

Registered User
Feb 22, 2019
24,581
23,211
It makes more sense for us to just hang onto EK for a few more years then sell him when we only have to retain 50% at the deadline and an additional year.

He’ll probably pop back up to an 80+ pt player once we get a functional powerplay.
I think EK's value is gonna plummet the longer he sticks around in this organization, and hanging onto him, you run the risk of his injury woes popping back up.
And not to continue to be a broken record, but this is one of my biggest issues with Sullivan and why I can't stand the guy. Instead of ever playing a player to their strengths, he tries to "fix" them and it results in the player being a much worse version of themselves.

If a team acquires Erik Karlsson, they do so knowing they're getting a riverboat gambler. They don't acquire him and then try to turn him into Brian Dumoulin with a better shot.
Sullivan is just the refined essence of all that sucks about NHL coaching. There's this obsession with "play 'em to a draw" style and dumbing things down to the most boring level possible. This league hates flow and creativity because it comes with risk.

Anyway, can't wait for Sullivan to get his hands on the next crop of top-3 picks this team's gonna be landing sooner than later. Should do wonders for molding the game of the next franchise building blocks. :)
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad