Player Discussion: Patrik Laine (mod warning in post #150)

[Psych0dad]

Drai contract was based on 1 season of high end production, with lot of time spent next to McDavid, Boston got Pasta at the same time for 6x6.6M.
The 3 of Scheifele/Barkov/Mack were the best young C's in the league at time getting new contracts, especially Scheifele& Barkov had taken the #1C roles on their teams.

At the time of the signing Drai wasn't the best player of the group.

But the stats show Laines resume is a different pedigree entirely.

 

[BB88]

Yeah. He leads the team with +32 5on 5 over the last two seasons.

He is obviously a very effective two way player.

How do you measure that?

Yes he covers well for his jumping D-men but when the puck is in the D-zone I don't consider him to be anything special, yet.

But the stats show Laines resume is a different pedigree entirely.

Go read my previous posts.

 

[Psych0dad]

How do you measure that?

By the positive impact the player has to winning. More positive impact (goals for your team) your presence on ice produces, more you contribute.

 

[Psych0dad]

Back-checking is not an achievement. It is the expectation.

What I have a problem with is his tendency to turn the puck over in the easiest of situations and 'cluelessness' in situations where he is correctly positioned (I'd say he knows that quite well) but fails to do anything meaningful.

But you just described Wheeler instead of Laine.

How can one see mistakes in one but not the other?

I'm more worried when Laine isn't on the ice. And the stats back that worry up. Team scores way more goals with him in than leaking negative goals.

Show me a better positive impact from anyone else but Chef and I will agree with you.

 

[Hokinaittii]

But you just described Wheeler instead of Laine.

How can one see mistakes in one but not the other?

I'm more worried when Laine isn't on the ice. And the stats back that worry up. Team scores way more goals with him in than leaking negative goals.

Show me a better positive impact from anyone else but Chef and I will agree with you.

Maybe you feel like that way due to Wheeler playing more meaningful minutes (PK etc) and him being more engaged in the play than Laine. Laine is usually the least engaged player in the defensive zone when it comes to trying to grind the puck back whereas Wheeler is like a pitbull out there fighting for the puck. When you are more fatigued than the other and you usually have more time with the puck in the defensive zone, you probably have more puck losses than someone who hardly touches the puck in his own zone.

 

[Psych0dad]

RW is supposed to block the opponents D in his side in defensive zone.

I would much rather Laine stays on his man than chase the puck to corners. That's more effective.

 

[LowLefty]

RW is supposed to block the opponents D in his side in defensive zone.

I would much rather Laine stays on his man than chase the puck to corners. That's more effective.

Sometimes his man is in the corner or side wall - but you will rarely find Laine in pursuit. He's usually looking for an outlet

 

[Hokinaittii]

RW is supposed to block the opponents D in his side in defensive zone.

I would much rather Laine stays on his man than chase the puck to corners. That's more effective.

I bet Wheeler feels the same way. He is also good at recognizing when he can pressure the D and possibly get the puck out from the zone. Being too passive is never going to work when you are against NHLers.

I guess Laine just realizes he is physically raw and not as good as others near the boards so he prefers to do what he does best, try to block the shots with his reach. But in the future when he isn't a kid anymore, I hope he becomes as nuisance as he was at times in Liiga in pressuring the opponent who has the puck.

 

[Psych0dad]

Yes he recognizes his short comings and adapts to them. He will have more effect in D zone play and active pursuit when he knows he can afford going there. He is a smart player and won't put himself out of position when he knows he can't recover. When he can, he will do it. That improves by physical readiness.

 

[Ippenator]

RW is supposed to block the opponents D in his side in defensive zone.

I would much rather Laine stays on his man than chase the puck to corners. That's more effective.

This is exactly the point. Good defence is not usually about puck chasing, especially if it doesn't lead into clearly preventing the opponent from scoring. Many times the most efficient defensive play is after all just staying in between the opponent with the puck and your own goal (when the guy you are defending has the puck) and at the same time trying to see most of the passing lanes that you can try intercepting then with a good stick if the opponent tries to pass close to you.

The puck chasing can be in fact a key to really bad defence way too often. Even though it might look cool and busy to many. But the result is still what should be always realized and especially the percentage of how many times the chasing leads to a good result and how many times to a bad result. This is what seems to be very difficult for many people to see well enough, and thus the busy puck hounding can seem like great defending, when it at least occasionally leads into even a positive result. But often it also deceives the eye if you don't notice it too well how often it can lead into the defence being disoriented after all and also how it can lead into fatigue and bad decisions when tired. End result stat like the 5 on 5 goal difference shows how it really is after all, if the eye test keeps failing with some player's real defensive efficiency.

 

[Hokinaittii]

This is exactly the point. Good defence is not usually about puck chasing, especially if it doesn't lead into clearly preventing the opponent from scoring. Many times the most efficient defensive play is after all just staying in between the opponent with the puck and your own goal (when the guy you are defending has the puck) and at the same time trying to see most of the passing lanes that you can try intercepting then with a good stick if the opponent tries to pass close to you.

The puck chasing can be in fact a key to really bad defence way too often. Even though it might look cool and busy to many. But the result is still what should be always realized and especially the percentage of how many times the chasing leads to a good result and how many times to a bad result. This is what seems to be very difficult for many people to see well enough, and thus the busy puck hounding can seem like great defending, when it at least occasionally leads into even a positive result. But often it also deceives the eye if you don't notice it too well how often it can lead into the defence being disoriented after all and also how it can lead into fatigue and bad decisions when tired. End result stat like the 5 on 5 goal difference shows how it really is after all, if the eye test keeps failing with some player's real defensive efficiency.

I think there isn't a clear right or wrong way to defend. Some players just have those extra smarts in their own zone to separate them from the rest and they know when to pressure the opponent if they are having troubles with bouncing puck or something. Sure, it's always safer to play like Laine does and cover the blueline but as we've seen in Liiga and with other players in NHL that you can also be aggressive and still not lose your position or man.

I personally expect Laine to be more engaging once he has the stamina and muscles for it. And that doesn't mean by purely chasing the puck carrier but instead reacting faster to everything that happens in the rink.

 

[Psych0dad]

I think there isn't a clear right or wrong way to defend. Some players just have those extra smarts in their own zone to separate them from the rest and they know when to pressure the opponent if they are having troubles with bouncing puck or something. Sure, it's always safer to play like Laine does and cover the blueline but as we've seen in Liiga and with other players in NHL that you can also be aggressive and still not lose your position or man.

I personally expect Laine to be more engaging once he has the stamina and muscles for it. And that doesn't mean by purely chasing the puck carrier but instead reacting faster to everything that happens in the rink.

That's my expectation too. I think it shows maturity on his part to do less of chasing when he knows he can't be certain of recovering.

Part of his hockey IQ, and that's why I have no worries about his defensive abilities. As his physical ability grows, so will the confidence to get out of position and still be able to recover if the puck is played to where you're supposed to be.

 

[StatisticsAddict99]

Is Laine good at defence..? No, he’s got great awareness and is pretty good at moving it out of the D-zone, he does not visibly work as hard as Wheeler defensive to play defence but he also doesn’t have the endurance, speed, explosiveness and linemates Wheeler has(meaning Wheeler can work his but off and disrubute it to either Scheifele or Connor who are very good at moving the puck safely and making plays to let Wheeler catch up to the play), to put it simple Laine doesn’t have the energy, skating and linemates to work as hard as Wheeler and score on the same play. I hope he does work a little harder(I also hope his skating is better) but more so I hope we see a Laine that is more physical rather than a workhorse.

 

[Halberdier]

Is Laine good at defence..? No, he’s got great awareness and is pretty good at moving it out of the D-zone, he does not visibly work as hard as Wheeler defensive to play defence but he also doesn’t have the endurance, speed, explosiveness and linemates Wheeler has(meaning Wheeler can work his but off and disrubute it to either Scheifele or Connor who are very good at moving the puck safely and making plays to let Wheeler catch up to the play), to put it simple Laine doesn’t have the energy, skating and linemates to work as hard as Wheeler and score on the same play. I hope he does work a little harder(I also hope his skating is better) but more so I hope we see a Laine that is more physical rather than a workhorse.

I agree, mostly. Though I think Laine is *good* at defending, just not *great*, which he hopefully will be in the future, and was at times at FEL.

In comparison to Wheeler I think you need to also take into account how Wheeler (and the whole CSW line) occasionally cheated on defence to get better scoring opportunities, which in turn did lead to *relatively* high amount of goals against. So despite Wheeler is hugely better physically when compared to Laine, their overall defensive effectiveness is not that far off. Laine might have even a bit lower 5-on-5 GA/60, but off course that is affected by his linemates too (Little/Stastny being defensively much better than Scheifele, Ehlers on average a bit better than Connor) as well as (to some degree at least) the situations they played.

 

[BB88]

By the positive impact the player has to winning. More positive impact (goals for your team) your presence on ice produces, more you contribute.

That doesn't really say anything on D-zone play, just that the guy is good at scoring goals, which he is one of the best.

I like that he covers for his D-men but I don't expect him to do a whole lot when the puck is in the D-zone, which should improve over time.

 

[Ippenator]

That doesn't really say anything on D-zone play, just that the guy is good at scoring goals, which he is one of the best.

I like that he covers for his D-men but I don't expect him to do a whole lot when the puck is in the D-zone, which should improve over time.

He was also THE BEST of all the Jets top 6 forwards in the amount of goals scored in 5 on 5 hockey. So I was exactly not only his toal scoring that made that possible. Wheeler for example had much more of scored 5 on 5 goals when he was on the ice, but he had almost as many goals scored against him when he was on the ice for 5 on 5 hockey. He had much more alowed goals than Laine had.

I understand that to you everything in hockey is about how busy, proactive and fast players are in every situation. But in many situations it is in fact not necessarily needed to be like those things. If the player has good enough hockey IQ, awareness and skills they can be much, much more efficient than fast moving, proactive and busy looking players on the ice.

But you will most probably not even see how efficient Laine and his kind of players are on the ice, as you are so mesmerized by the busy looking and fast skating players that you don’t see how much those kind of players might after all make mistakes and how rarely after all their busy being lead after all to a real good play. And is it in fact a good enough amount of the good plays compared to the bad plays. 5 on 5 goal difference tells about this pretty darn well, especially through a longer period like the whole season. So just respect that and the end results proven by it, if you can’t see with your own eyes the things that are proven with reliable end results describing stats.

Laine will most probably become at least a bit busier and faster skating defensive player, at last at some point closer to his prime, but I for sure don’t want to see that happen and him having then the kind of 5 on 5 goal differences that Wheeler and many other ”busy” guys have.

 

[LowLefty]

I understand that to you everything in hockey is about how busy, proactive and fast players are in every situation. But in many situations it is in fact not necessarily needed to be like those things. If the player has good enough hockey IQ, awareness and skills they can be much, much more efficient than fast moving, proactive and busy looking players on the ice.

But you will lost probably not even see how efficient Laine and his kind of players are on the ice, as you are so mesmerized by the busy looking and fast skating players that you don’t see how much those kind of players might after all make mistakes and how rarely after all their busy being lead after all to a real good play. And is it in fact a good enough amount or the good plays compared to the bad plays. 5 on 5 goal difference tells about his pretty darn well, especially through a longer proof like the whole season. So just respect that and the end results proven by it, if you can’t see with your own eyes the things that are poven with reliable end results describing stats..

I'm trying hard to understand what you mean by "Busy" - are you saying those that can skate well and use that part of their game are just busy looking busy?
That's quite a call out -
It almost sounds like you have come to the conclusion that it is better to be slow so that you make less mistakes.

 

[BB88]

He was also THE BEST of all the Jets top 6 forwards in the amount of goals scored in 5 on 5 hockey. So I was exactly not only his toal scoring that made that possible. Wheeler for example had much more of scored 5 on 5 goals when he was on the ice, but he had almost as many goals scored against him when he was on the ice for 5 on 5 hockey. He had much more alowed goals than Laine had.

I understand that to you everything in hockey is about how busy, proactive and fast players are in every situation. But in many situations it is in fact not necessarily needed to be like those things. If the player has good enough hockey IQ, awareness and skills they can be much, much more efficient than fast moving, proactive and busy looking players on the ice.

But you will lost probably not even see how efficient Laine and his kind of players are on the ice, as you are so mesmerized by the busy looking and fast skating players that you don’t see how much those kind of players might after all make mistakes and how rarely after all their busy being lead after all to a real good play. And is it in fact a good enough amount or the good plays compared to the bad plays. 5 on 5 goal difference tells about his pretty darn well, especially through a longer proof like the whole season. So just respect that and the end results proven by it, if you can’t see with your own eyes the things that are poven with reliable end results describing stats.

Laine will most probably become at least a bit busier and faster skating defensive player, at last at some point closer to his prime, but I for sure don’t want to see that happen and him having then the kind of 5 on 5 goal differences that Wheeler and many other ”busy” guys have.

I watch some quality defensive forwards in Boston, like Bergeron& Marchand, the best in the business in their positions and Laine isn't at that level or anywhere close to it.
Wheeler plays a different role than Laine and for a reason. Just standing still and trying to flip pucks to neutral zone isn't high end defensive play.

Laine line isn't the line you put on the ice when you want to shutdown opponents best, and this shouldn't have to be even argued.

 

[Ippenator]

I'm trying hard to understand what you mean by "Busy" - are you saying those that can skate well and use that part of their game are just busy looking busy?
That's quite a call out -
It almost sounds like you have come to the conclusion that it is better to be slow so that you make less mistakes.

Yes it’s much better to be a bit slower but with very good hockey IQ, than very fast and with lower hockey IQ. This should be really obvious. Speed kills if it’s used with high intelligence, but if it’s used with lower intelligence that doesn’t match with the skating speed, then it can in fact way too often kill your own team after all.

Just look at the 5 on 5 goal difference and you should see what I mean. But probably you will just make excuses to try to desperately put down Laine’s great 5 on 5 goal difference and the smallest amount of allowed 5 on 5 goals out of all the Jets top 6 forwards.

And of course a defensively as sound player as Laine will still not be used as a shutdown player, because even though he is defensively very solid, they need to still prioritize his usage. Of course they will still use him 1st of all as a goalscorer, because that is what he still does the best. He can’t be on the ice on every possible situation, so he is used mostly according to his biggest strength, but it doesn’t still mean that he isn’t also good defensively. As the only really credible defensive stats, which are the allowed goals and the goal difference on 5 on 5 hockey clearly are proving.

WTF should they even have players like Lowry, Copp or Tanev for, if they wouldn’t be exactly on the ice most of the time for shutting down the opponent’s scoring lines? Those guys wouldn’t definitely have much of use because of their offensive skills, but they are good in what they do, and they give precious time for the scoring lines to rest and concentrate in doing what they are absolutely best at.

I mean, Laine playing most of the time in the scoring line role doesn’t mean that he is bad for a defensive role either, but it would be still plain idiotism to use him too much in anything else than a scoring role, as he has still pretty weak stamina, so he can take only one role at the moment anyway. Maurice said in fact already during Laine’s rookie season that he was even annoyed at how too many people seemed to think that Laine is not good defensively when he was already even then pretty solid and very responsible with it. In the same interview Maurice said that he can see pretty easily Laine playing even on a penalty killing line in the future when he has matured more physically.

Yes, some people seem to seriously think that the skating speed and being busy are so important in defining if a player is good or not. But in reality an average skating player with very high IQ and great skill is a lot better player than a player that is very fast and energetic and has only mediocre IQ and skills.

 

[Howard Chuck]

I watch some quality defensive forwards in Boston, like Bergeron& Marchand, the best in the business in their positions and Laine isn't at that level or anywhere close to it.
Wheeler plays a different role than Laine and for a reason. Just standing still and trying to flip pucks to neutral zone isn't high end defensive play.

Laine line isn't the line you put on the ice when you want to shutdown opponents best, and this shouldn't have to be even argued.

These types of comments are what cause some of the issues in these types of threads. Laine made many incredible defensive plays last year in the D zone. He does not just stand still and try to flip pucks to the neutral zone.

Can he improve? Of course, and I'm sure he will. But let's not use too much hyperbole.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

These types of comments are what cause some of the issues in these types of threads. Laine made many incredible defensive plays last year in the D zone. He does not just stand still and try to flip pucks to the neutral zone.

Can he improve? Of course, and I'm sure he will. But let's not use too much hyperbole.

It's getting absurd, talking about him like he's some steaming turd pile who doesn't even try. Laine has shown great interest in learning the defensive side of the game and truly tries to improve. What else could you want?

 

[LowLefty]

It's getting absurd, talking about him like he's some steaming turd pile who doesn't even try. Laine has shown great interest in learning the defensive side of the game and truly tries to improve. What else could you want?

Crazy isn't it - especially when you consider we may soon be paying him $10M+ over a number of years. Kidding aside, I don't believe anyone is doing anything remotely close to what you are describing.

I do think he is under the microscope - like it or not Laine super fans. After all, that's a lot of money and a little tire kicking is not out of order.

I also agree that he does recognize his limitations on the other side of the puck and wants to improve - that's what I like about him more than the fact that he can shoot the puck.

 

[PhilJets]

Why people are comparing Wheeler and Laine.
One is 32 years old one just turned 20.

One took him awhile and realize how good he can be before he trained hard.
One is a phenom who no matter how bad he got thrown down the line up he still produces points.

I love Wheeler
I love Laine

Best 1 - 2 right wing punch in the league. No team is even close.

Jets also have arguably the best 1 - 2 punch on the left side.

Jets got a top 5 to 8 C in thr league.

If little and roslo can produce 80 to 90 points between them this coming year. Who can handle the Jets top 2 line.

Right now its the golden year of being a Jet fan.

Im just chillin

 

[PhilJets]

https://www.facebook.com/nhljets/videos/1789289177818464/



The link is a reminder how one dimensional Patrik Laine is

That is a monkey, I mean A GIANT GORILLA of the JETS franchise back.

Well I think that one dimensional talk is way exaggerated, it is the same for many good young goal scorer coming into the league.

Don't have the link for that
game 3 goal Buff Nashville goal to put the Jets in the lead.
or that game 5 goal top right corner that deflected of Stastny glove.
Did he also score 2 goals on that freak Fleury (unbeatable) in that Conference final.

That's his 2nd year in the league and 1st playoff experience.



Hope he get sign before training camp already, after Morrissey ​

 

[flyingkiwi]

Laine on the cover of NHL 19 in Finland apparently.