Player Discussion: Patrik Laine (mod warning in post #150)

[Halberdier]

Several statistics such as Laine's CF% and GF% being better than Connor's despite having weaker linemates?

Really, considering the dysfunctional line he was stuck on, these opinions are odd.

I don't think he is anymore suggesting that Connor is better 5-on-5 player than Laine. That was in the middle of last season during ELL experiment where this point could be made, although barely and by completely ignoring the line mates.

Connor is by far the worst Jet winger defensively (at least if Ehlers is not having a really bad day he had couple last season), and outside his agility I don't think there is much where he would be better than Laine. Again, agility is so important as it affects to pretty much everything including cycle game, so some people can even prefer Connor over Laine. I don't share their opinion, but I'm OK with that.

 

[avgard]

not having Heard any news of him cutting or thinking of cutting his stick just a Little one. it would be so much better for his puck treatment baking behaviours. as of now a Little tricky bakin with pucks at allower the ice except in shooting line where there richly free area sometimes can be and he just makes that huge shooting move.

not even any talks about this? hello? not even single articles over anywhere?

Sir avgard hockeyprofessor

 

[Maukkis]

You just prove my point. Some people can't see his game, and that's OK. I do see his game, and miraculously that matches his Results, that are awesome. I might be wrong, and he might be just lucky, but I think he is really defensive aware player that also does what he can to prevent opponent scoring and doesn't cheat for offence, and that in the end is displayed on the score sheet. Hockey IQ over the quick foot speed, 9 times out of 10, even on NHL.

That's perfectly OK that we disagree on what he brings into the table outside the offensive zone (and inside that zone as well apart from scoring). At least we agree on him when he scores for the Jets and can both celebrate that

From what I've read, GF% seems to be inferior to Corsi and xG as a predictor of future success, so there's that. Laine is just an odd player in that xG doesn't work with him, though.

I haven't seen too much slacking from Laine in the literal sense of the word. That's a positive sign, even if the actual skill is lacking. With (hopefully) improved footspeed, the issues he has had with quick transitioning from defense to offense and vice versa should diminish even more.

People really mistakenly took that Ehlers vs Laine -post as criticism on Laine. I am aware that Laine has some elite aspects to his game which help us win games, but Ehlers contributes more overall. I even mentioned arguments for both, but this thread is notorious for shooting down anything that can be interpreted as a slight towards Laine. That's an unfortunate truth.

And finally, few things make me as happy as the Jets scoring goals and winning games.

 

[kelsier]

Neither true nor funny.

Yup, there are some guys that haven't seen the light and oddly there were some putting eg. Connor ahead of Laine on 5-on-5 game during last season when "Farmer O'Connor was enjoying highlife" and Laine stuck with that dysfunctional line. Then at certain point you could made a cherry picked stat with a very questionable way to express the result of that stat to prove your point like @Maukkis did. There was that 6-10th best forward thing.

After EStL and regular season, things looked really different, but at points yeah, some of the less bright ones did really call for Laine to be sent into Moose, and in overall there was let's say "much less love" (to put it lightly) towards Laine.

I predict that one thing will continue: if Laine doesn't score, certain posters will say that he played a bad game. Some people can really see him in in positive light only when he scores. Then they love him. These same people will be just puzzled why Laine shines on winning GF against GA, as they show how in those virtual, Corsi-based stats Laine is an average guy, so that he just happens to be so lucky to have high GF and relatively low GA when he is on ice 5-on-5. So my prediction is that Laine continues to be "lucky", even if luck doesn't really exist on large sample sizes.

Yeah, this is some strange fan base at least but I suppose I don't really mind at all. I mean not so long ago I had to debate for pages explaining why Connor wasn't necessarily the better fit than Laine in the first line (not that he had to play there), cause how exactly do you measure something of which doesn't have barely any existing data whatsoever, especially from the same season? Oh the joy! Lets not even forget that some people here think the only advantage Laine has over Ehlers is his shot.

Early 17-18 Laine was team's 10th best forward, which makes the forward core pretty deep considering even the 10th best forward can finish 2nd in the goal scoring league-wise. Not too shabby. There are people here that glean into any "wrong-doing" by Laine and jump at him whenever the opportunity arises (one of which you already mentioned) and I sometimes struggle to even wonder if the few individuals (especially the Finnish ones) really truly want the best for him. Nonetheless I wouldn't say he's "much loved" or anything, but rather that he's considered controversial. I might add that I do think the most actually want him to succeed as it is in the team's best interest.

At the end of the day at least I don't think most come close to understanding the potential he holds. Anyway, at least TWS does. Welcome aboard to sorting out many internal conflicts yet to come.

And of yeah, FREE LAINE!

 

[Kaako Kappo]

Some people need to realize that Laine will never look like Connor or Ehlers out there. Different players, tools and styles.

 

[Crazed Fan]

Laine, Ehlers, Connor. All great. All contribute, all have different things to work on to improve. All i know is they are 3 important pieces and they work well together with the rest of the team.

 

[Asmola]

Laine, Ehlers, Connor. All great. All contribute, all have different things to work on to improve. All i know is they are 3 important pieces and they work well together with the rest of the team.

Main difference is that other two can be replaced, but not Laine.

 

[jepjepjoo]

"Laine is a PP specialist"

Comparing rookie seasons:

Age on the first game day
Crosby 18yo 59d
Laine 18yo 177d
Ovechkin 20yo 18d

PP opportunities
WSH 05-06 495
PIT 05-06 490
WPG 16-17 264

PP TOI
Ovechkin 544:33
Crosby 459:15
Laine 199:18

PP production
Crosby 81GP 16G 31A 47PTS
Ovechkin 81GP 21G 31A 52PTS
Laine 73GP 9G 5A 14PTS

PP TOI needed for a goal
Laine 22:09
Ovechkin 25:56
Crosby 28:42

PP TOI needed for a point
Crosby 9:46
Ovechkin 10:28
Laine 14:16

EV TOI
Ovechkin 1,140:57
Crosby 1,119:25
Laine 1,106:54

EV production
Crosby 81GP 23G 30A 53PTS
Ovechkin 81GP 28G 23A 51PTS
Laine 73GP 27G 23A 50PTS

EV TOI needed for a goal
Ovechkin 40:45
Laine 40:59
Crosby 48:40

EV TOI needed for a point
Crosby 21:07
Laine 22:08
Ovechkin 22:22

Seems like the only difference in production is PP time.

 

[Psych0dad]

Thanks for doing that work. It's imperative to bring facts into the conversation because many are blinded by eye test (and change of circumstances over time) and can't get over it.

 

[Psych0dad]

Some people need to realize that Laine will never look like Connor or Ehlers out there. Different players, tools and styles.

Yeah comparing Laine and Ehlers is like comparing Lemieux and Mike Gartner. People who love speed, and looking busy, and think it is everything, might even think Gartner was better. He wasn't though.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

Yeah comparing Laine and Ehlers is like comparing Lemieux and Mike Gartner. People who love speed, and looking busy, and think it is everything, might even think Gartner was better. He wasn't though.

That's not what i meant.

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

And here's what I think of that poll question.

 

[Psych0dad]

That's not what i meant.

But Ehlers doesn't contribute more in production or defense so how is that a justified stance? I don't know what else it could mean than that he skates better. And that can't be a factor in contributing.

 

[Maukkis]

'But Ehlers doesn't contribute more!'

Yes, yes he does. Over the last two years, he has even shot more than Laine.

'But that's just shots, Laine scores more!'

2016-18, 5v5

Ehlers: 2.22 ES points/60
Laine: 2.16 ES points/60

So... about that.

 

[grieves]

^
That is probably because Ehlers was was a damn beast in the first line playing with Chef and Wheeler in the 17-18 season. Mostly otherwise it has been either ESL (1 and 2) or ELL for Laine and Ehlers.

This is the problem with just posting numbers at face value, you have to know what actually happened also.

Nothing away from Ehlers though, he was awesome on the first line before they switched Connor there.

 

[Maukkis]

^
That is probably because Ehlers was was a damn beast in the first line playing with Chef and Wheeler in the 17-18 season. Mostly otherwise it has been either ESL (1 and 2) or ELL for Laine and Ehlers.

This is the problem with just posting numbers at face value, you have to know what actually happened also.

Nothing away from Ehlers though, he was awesome on the first line before they switched Connor there.

To my knowledge, that data of Sznajder's doesn't include many 17-18 games (like 20 or so). I don't know which set of games is included, but given that Ehlers is Laine's most common linemate, that shouldn't be a large factor at all.

What actually has happened during those +-100 games that have been tracked by Sznajder is that Ehlers has contributed more and scored more at ES. Simple, no?

 

[Kaako Kappo]

To my knowledge, that data of Sznajder's doesn't include many 17-18 games (like 20 or so). I don't know which set of games is included, but given that Ehlers is Laine's most common linemate, that shouldn't be a large factor at all.

What actually has happened during those +-100 games that have been tracked by Sznajder is that Ehlers has contributed more and scored more at ES. Simple, no?

Contribution aside (something that's honestly difficult to measure), you're assuming that all points are equal. Is an assist equal to a goal? I don't think it's as simple as you're saying. You need to check the games Laine & Ehlers have played together on the same line and then start counting.

 

[grieves]

To my knowledge, that data of Sznajder's doesn't include many 17-18 games (like 20 or so). I don't know which set of games is included, but given that Ehlers is Laine's most common linemate, that shouldn't be a large factor at all.

What actually has happened during those +-100 games that have been tracked by Sznajder is that Ehlers has contributed more and scored more at ES. Simple, no?

Well like you said, it depends on which games are counted in. If Laine stays with Little and Ehlers plays with Chef and Wheeler, that's a pretty important factor here obviously.

 

[Maukkis]

Well like you said, it depends on which games are counted in. If Laine stays with Little and Ehlers plays with Chef and Wheeler, that's a pretty important factor here obviously.

And that's still not going to wipe away the importance of the other ~80 games. A sample size this huge is going to include different combinations in favour of both sides.

 

[grieves]

And that's still not going to wipe away the importance of the other ~80 games. A sample size this huge is going to include different combinations in favour of both sides.

Well Laine has played with Chef in the beginning and then he has been stapled with Little, and then there was Stastny.

Can you remember a combination which favored Laine in any meaningful way?

And what kind of stats are you digging that doesn't have the two full seasons? Why even use something like that?

 

[Maukkis]

Well Laine has played with Chef in the beginning and then he has been stapled with Little, and then there was Stastny.

Can you remember a combination which favored Laine in any meaningful way?

And what kind of stats are you digging that doesn't have the two full seasons? Why even use something like that?

PLL, for all of five games. It's almost as if it's impossible to find any working combinations with Laine in them, whereas other players do just fine with most linemates...

 

[grieves]

PLL, for all of five games. It's almost as if it's impossible to find any working combinations with Laine in them, whereas other players do just fine with most linemates...

So I'll take that as a "not really".

 

[Maukkis]

So I'll take that as a "not really".

Isn't it odd that a lot of problems seem to have one guy as the common denominator?

For a supposedly elite player, he sure does struggle with nearly everyone. At what point do we accept that he has more aspects of the game to work on than people want to admit?

 

[grieves]

Isn't it odd that a lot of problems seem to have one guy as the common denominator?

For a supposedly elite player, he sure does struggle with nearly everyone. At what point do we accept that he has more aspects of the game to work on than people want to admit?

Everyone admits it already.

Seeing as the subject changed, I am going to assume you agree with me about the other stuff.

 

[Maukkis]

Everyone admits it already.

Seeing as the subject changed, I am going to assume you agree with me about the other stuff.

Read this thread carefully. People sure don't.

And I really don't see any other stuff there. Ehlers > Laine today. We'll see how the future unfolds.