Player Discussion: Patrik Laine (mod warning in post #150)

[Kaako Kappo]

One thing i have to wonder about is... does powerplay not count for anything anymore? Aren't those goals and points counted just like all the others? Laine's elite tool is something that does it's biggest damage on the power play. The fact of the matter is that Laine outscored Ehlers this season, smashed him in goals both seasons(Equal points i think?) and was better in the playoffs too. And you can't even count the goals that have been scored by others just because Laine exists on the PP. He's better than Ehlers, contributes more and will continue to contribute more when all things are considered.

Not sure why this matters though, because not only do they play on the same team, they play on the same damn line. Should we start calculating who benefits more from one another?

 

[grieves]

Read this thread carefully. People sure don't.

And I really don't see any other stuff there. Ehlers > Laine today. We'll see how the future unfolds.

What are you talking about? Ehlers is not better than Laine today. Laine just scored 44 goals in less ice-time than any-aged player ever while playing in ELL for most of the season. That's just blatantly wrong.

Ehlers is great though, no doubt.

 

[Maukkis]

One thing i have to wonder about is... does powerplay not count for anything anymore? Aren't those goals and points counted just like all the others? Laine's elite tool is something that does it's biggest damage on the power play. The fact of the matter is that Laine outscored Ehlers this season, smashed him in goals both seasons(Equal points i think?) and was better in the playoffs too. And you can't even count the goals that have been scored by others just because Laine exists on the PP. He's better than Ehlers, contributes more and will continue to contribute more when all things are considered.

Not sure why this matters though, because not only do they play on the same team, they play on the same damn line. Should we start calculating who benefits more from one another?

We spent 8.7% of last season on the PP. As for ES hockey, 82.2%. Success at ES simply goes a longer way and is better for evaluation purposes.

I've provided you with some statistics that indicate that Ehlers produces more than Laine, in terms of ES points and shots+shot assists. What do you have?

And as for your last point, I believe this was done for the entire year to find scapegoats for Laine's struggles. And this is a message board - of course people can discuss hockey in whatever legal way they like.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

We spent 8.7% of last season on the PP. As for ES hockey, 82.2%. Success at ES simply goes a longer way and is better for evaluation purposes.

I've provided you with some statistics that indicate that Ehlers produces more than Laine, in terms of ES points and shots+shot assists. What do you have?

And as for your last point, I believe this was done for the entire year to find scapegoats for Laine's struggles. And this is a message board - of course people can discuss hockey in whatever legal way they like.

So it seems like Laine spent that time pretty well then. You can throw around the ES numbers all you want, the difference is not even that big and the simple fact is that Laine's PP production and goal scoring makes him plenty more valuable to the team. Unless you consider an assist to be worth the same amount as a goal.

 

[Maukkis]

So it seems like Laine spent that time pretty well then. You can throw around the ES numbers all you want, the difference is not even that big and the simple fact is that Laine's PP production and goal scoring makes him plenty more valuable to the team. Unless you consider an assist to be worth the same amount as a goal.

I have (the next word comes in bold, in italics and in its own paragraph for perfect clarity)

never

criticised Laine as a goalscorer. No logical reason exists for anyone to believe otherwise. I've said that he is a constant threat in the offensive zone. Multiple times, actually.

It's the rest of the game at which other players are much, much better than him. It's one thing to be an offensive wizard, but to contribute in all three zones at a great level is an entirely different matter. The stats don't suggest that Laine is that.

as a sidenote, I'm not a fan of one-dimensional players in general

 

[Kaako Kappo]

I have (the next word comes in bold, in italics and in its own paragraph for perfect clarity)

never

criticised Laine as a goalscorer. No logical reason exists for anyone to believe otherwise. I've said that he is a constant threat in the offensive zone. Multiple times, actually.

It's the rest of the game at which other players are much, much better than him. It's one thing to be an offensive wizard, but to contribute in all three zones at a great level is an entirely different matter. The stats don't suggest that Laine is that.

as a sidenote, I'm not a fan of one-dimensional players in general

You said Ehlers contributes more. I don't think that's true because of the reasons i listed.. I guess we'll agree to disagree.

 

[BB88]

Isn't it odd that a lot of problems seem to have one guy as the common denominator?

For a supposedly elite player, he sure does struggle with nearly everyone. At what point do we accept that he has more aspects of the game to work on than people want to admit?

Yep, superstars produce without excuses.

Laine is young and has ton of time to get better but his impact in games has been overhyped.
He's been a finisher so far in his NHL career, rather than a driver.

I really want that to change now with 2 years under his belt.

 

[Ippenator]

Yep, superstars produce without excuses.

Laine is young and has ton of time to get better but his impact in games has been overhyped.
He's been a finisher so far in his NHL career, rather than a driver.

I really want that to change now with 2 years under his belt.

And yet he is vastly better as a 20 year old than 99,9% of the other 20 year olds have ever been in the NHL. And not even a contest - Laine is already a clearly better player than Ehlers. Ehlers is better only at skating and Laine beats him comfortably with practically everything else. And all this while Laine is two years younger than Ehlers.

Ehlers’s true problem is his average hockey IQ compared to the speed that he is usually skating with. And he certainly is no line driver, as fast skating and zone entries don't qualify as any kind of real line driving just by themselves. When he learns to really hold on to the puck and eventually to make the good playmaking decision with it that leads to high danger scoring chances or goals much more often than to his stupid blind passes or puck fumblings, then he might at some point even be a good line driver. But for that to happen it will for sure take some time before he will learn to play like that, and most probably he will never learn to play like that, as hockey IQ very rarely develops much after players are already clearly over 20 year olds.

Some of the posters here will never admit how good Laine is at any point, as he will never be somekind of a speed demon with his acceleration, but he will never need to be that, as long as he develops in general in a balanced way. Some people refuse to see this kind of development as a good thing for a player, and seems also that some of these posters don’t anyway appreciate so much the sniper type that Laine will still always be more than anything else, even how much he manages to still develop. He is a sniper and always will be. He might do some more of playmaking at some point and be more versatile in other ways too, but by heart he will still always be first of all a sniper - hate it or embrace it...

 

[Maukkis]

And yet he is vastly better as a 20 year old than 99,9% of the other 20 year olds have ever been in the NHL. And not even a contest - Laine is already a clearly better player than Ehlers. Ehlers is better only at skating and Laine beats him comfortably with practically everything else. And all this while Laine is two years younger than Ehlers.

Ehlers’s true problem is his average hockey IQ compared to the speed that he is usually skating with. And he certainly is no line driver, as fast skating and zone entries don't qualify as any kind of real line driving. When he learns to really hold on to the puck and eventually to make the good playmaking decision with it that leads to high danger scoring chances or goals much more often than to his stupid blind passes or puck fumblings, then he might at some point even be a good line driver. But for that to happen it will for sure take some time before he will learn to play like that, and most probably he will never learn to play like that, as hockey IQ very rarely develops much after players are already clearly over 20 year olds.

Some of the posters here will never admit how good Laine, as he will never be somekind of a speed demon with his acceleration, but he will never need to be that, as long as he develops in general in a balanced way. Some people refuse to see this kind of development as a good thing for a player, and seems also that some of these posters don’t anyway appreciate so much the sniper type that Laine will still always be more than anything else, even how much he manages to still develop. He is a sniper and always will be. He might do some more of playmaking at some point and be more versatile in other ways too, but by heart he will still always be first of all a sniper - hate it or embrace it...

Why don't you post something of substance to prove your point? I see a lot of words that ultimately just form an opinion and nothing else.

 

[BB88]

And yet he is vastly better as a 20 year old than 99,9% of the other 20 year olds have ever been in the NHL. And not even a contest - Laine is already a clearly better player than Ehlers. Ehlers is better only at skating and Laine beats him comfortably with practically everything else. And all this while Laine is two years younger than Ehlers.

Ehlers’s true problem is his average hockey IQ compared to the speed that he is usually skating with. And he certainly is no line driver, as fast skating and zone entries don't qualify as any kind of real line driving just by themselves. When he learns to really hold on to the puck and eventually to make the good playmaking decision with it that leads to high danger scoring chances or goals much more often than to his stupid blind passes or puck fumblings, then he might at some point even be a good line driver. But for that to happen it will for sure take some time before he will learn to play like that, and most probably he will never learn to play like that, as hockey IQ very rarely develops much after players are already clearly over 20 year olds.

Some of the posters here will never admit how good Laine is at any point, as he will never be somekind of a speed demon with his acceleration, but he will never need to be that, as long as he develops in general in a balanced way. Some people refuse to see this kind of development as a good thing for a player, and seems also that some of these posters don’t anyway appreciate so much the sniper type that Laine will still always be more than anything else, even how much he manages to still develop. He is a sniper and always will be. He might do some more of playmaking at some point and be more versatile in other ways too, but by heart he will still always be first of all a sniper - hate it or embrace it...

Didn't say a word about Ehlers.

I want Laine to become the best player he can and I believe he has potential to be one of the best players in the league in his prime, but he has lot of work to do to get to that level.

He's at the highest tier of young superstars in the league but his impact is far away from the highest tier of superstars in the NHL.
For some the excuse always seemed to be but Little, if Little is the worst linemate one has to play you're in pretty good place.

I'll be disappointed as hell if Laine ends up as 1 dimensional sniper, even if he wins the rocket he won't be a top3/5 player in the league then.

+ No one has asked him to be McDavid on the ice, just to see progress and show up on shape at the camp, I'll leave this at that.

 

[Ippenator]

Why don't you post something of substance to prove your point? I see a lot of words that ultimately just form an opinion and nothing else.

Why don't you bother to read and think about other poster’s posts? I have posted already numerous times that Laine’s 5 on 5 goal difference is the best for the Jets top 6 forwards for the last season. Clearly better than Ehlers’s for example. Also goals and points prove also that Laine is better than Ehlers, if you truly fail to see it by watching hockey. Also Ehlers’s abysmal play in the playoffs even underlines it how much worse a player he is than Laine. And Laine wasn't even himself at his best in the playoffs. But still miles ahead of Ehlers. But I won’t bother more discussing with you, as you are a completely selective poster whom will neglect anything that is against your views. And you have clearly decided that you dislike Laine and will always try to find reasons to point out how he is worse than he really is.

Dont’t bother making your pitiful stats twisting with completely meaningless advanced stats, as you should already know by now that I don't accept them as meaningful stats anyway. The only meaningful INDIVIDUAL stats for evaluating individual player success are end result based like goals, assists, points, scored and allowed goals, 5 on 5 goal difference and wins and losses and save percentage (the last two more important with goalies of course). No use to continue with you and your clear dislike with Laine. Sure go on and deny it, but I will never believe you when you claim that you don't have it.

 

[Maukkis]

Why don't you bother to read and think about other poster’s posts? I have posted already numerous times that Laine’s 5 on 5 goal difference is the best for the Jets top 6 forwards for the last season. Clearly better than Ehlers’s for example. Also goals and points prove also that Laine is better than Ehlers, if you truly fail to see it by watching hockey. Also Ehlers’s abysmal play in the playoffs even underlines it how much worse a player he is than Laine. And Laine wasn't even himself at his best in the playoffs. But still miles ahead of Ehlers. But I won’t bother more discussing with you, as you are a completely selective poster whom will negelct anything that is against your views. And you have clearly decided that you dislike Laine and will always try to find reasons to point out how he is worse than he really is.

Dont’t bother making your pitiful stats twisting with completely meaningless advanced stats, as you should already know by now that I don't accept them as meaningful stats anyway. The only meaningful stats are end result based like goals, assists, points, scored and allowed goals, 5 on 5 goal difference and wins and losses and save percentage (the last two more important with goalies of course). No use to continue with you and your clear dislike with Laine. Sure go on and deny it, but I will never believe you when you claim that you don't have it.

Talk goal differential all you want, but it just might not be the optimal predictor of what will happen in the future.

It's weird how you deem advanced statistics to be meaningless. Everything players do on the ice affect the end result, which makes every stat - advanced or not - meaningful. Somehow, you seem to selectively like some of them and despise the rest. Care to elaborate?

And there they come, the false accusations. We've been down this road before, and repeating that pathetic lie doesn't make it any more true. It's insulting, realistically.

 

[Ippenator]

Didn't say a word about Ehlers.

I want Laine to become the best player he can and I believe he has potential to be one of the best players in the league in his prime, but he has lot of work to do to get to that level.

He's at the highest tier of young superstars in the league but his impact is far away from the highest tier of superstars in the NHL.
For some the excuse always seemed to be but Little, if Little is the worst linemate one has to play you're in pretty good place.

I'll be disappointed as hell if Laine ends up as 1 dimensional sniper, even if he wins the rocket he won't be a top3/5 player in the league then.

+ No one has asked him to be McDavid on the ice, just to see progress and show up on shape at the camp, I'll leave this at that.

Still he will be always a sniper at heart, even how much you would want him to be something else. With the shot and the goalscoring skills that he has there’s no way in hell that he would be clearly something else than a sniper first of all. He might be a more versatile sniper at some point, but you are delusional if you believe that a player with his kind of a shot will be focused still in something else more than goal scoring. And it still doesn’t have to mean that he is completely a one sided player, but that his clearest strength is still goal scoring, as he is and will most probably be in the future the best shooter in the game. There’s no reason why he shouldn't use his best skill always as much as possible for the most important thing in hockey, which is scoring goals.

 

[Ippenator]

Talk goal differential all you want, but it just might not be the optimal predictor of what will happen in the future.

It's weird how you deem advanced statistics to be meaningless. Everything players do on the ice affect the end result, which makes every stat - advanced or not - meaningful. Somehow, you seem to selectively like some of them and despise the rest. Care to elaborate?

And there they come, the false accusations. We've been down this road before, and repeating that pathetic lie doesn't make it any more true. It's insulting, realistically.

You are using a team based predicting method for predicting things for individuals. That tells me enough of how much worth it is to discuss this subject with you...

 

[Maukkis]

Your are using a team based predicting method for predicting things for individuals. That tells me enough of how much worth it is to discuss this subject with you...

That applies to players too.

 

[Ippenator]

That applies to players too.

It absolutely doesn’t do it even clearly in the same way as for the teams. And this is what you and some others seem to really not understand. Laine first of all is a player that will teach you a great lesson about this during his career. And you will most probably always hate him because of that. But there are loads of other players that are capable of doing that as well. Players with the most skill, highest IQ, best and most accurate shots will always be breaking these average based models constantly. For a more average player or players whose game is very much based on pure speed and volume with everything they do on the ice, but not very good skill, IQ and shooting, for them it might hold some value to look at the advanced stats. But I honestly dislike those stats even in their cases. Players are still always that much of individuals that I anyway want to embrace that and honor each player for what they are as THEIR OWN INDIVIDUAL.

And every player should always also be getting the true respect in hockey on the basis of what their role in the team is. That is what is truly important and especially with the end results each player manages to achieve in their role.

 

[BB88]

Still he will be always a sniper at heart, even how much you would want him to be something else. With the shot and the goalscoring skills that he has there’s no way in hell that he would be clearly something else than a sniper first of all. He might be a more versatile sniper at some point, but you are delusional if you believe that a player with his kind of a shot will be focused still in something else more than goal scoring. And it still doesn’t have to mean that he is completely a one sided player, but that his clearest strength is still goal scoring, as he is and will most probably be in the future the best shooter in the game. There’s no reason why he shouldn't use his best skill always as much as possible for the most important thing in hockey, which is scoring goals.

Has someone said don't score goals?

Laine has one of the, if not the best shot in the league, it would be stupid as hell to not take advantage of it.
But with the talent/potential Laine has we should see Laine who takes over games, is a nightmare to play against, he's 6'4 and could be a physical beast with the best shot in the league.

Doesn't take anything away from his shot.

 

[Psych0dad]

Why don't you post something of substance to prove your point? I see a lot of words that ultimately just form an opinion and nothing else.

Why not take your own advice? You are trying to make a point that doesn't really make sense. You can't just exclude the data that puts Laine clearly ahead, to try justifying more "production" for Ehlers.

It doesn't matter how many shots Ehlers gets. Laine scores goals, better than anyone from further than anyone. That skill alone just stomps all kinds of less useful "contribution". The first and foremost, absolutely primary skill in hockey is scoring goals. It's the objective. If there was a player who would just basically stand in the neutral zone and blast bombs with 50% accuracy, that thing would be by far the most valuable hockey player ever. Even if he didn't do anything else right.

Ehlers is better than Laine in skating. That is it. And that is not contribution.

But as you put on the small print, that is truly where the problem lies. I also really like the "complete players" like Barkov or Bergeron, but as much as I like the way they have a big impact in all aspects, none of them are worth Laines special skill. They just can't contribute to winning a game (which requires scoring a goal) in the same way as he can. They have a shit ton of secondary contribution, but can't get close in primary. And Laine isn't bad in secondary contributions either, but he is the best at primary so he will always be more of a goal scorer. It's great to have an Iniesta, but it's better to have a Messi.

 

[kunekune]

I was playing Golf with Laine last week and I gotta say that he looks thinner than last summer.

Also heard that he broke all the benchmarks from last off season.

Looking good for the next season.

 

[Howard Chuck]

Yep, superstars produce without excuses.

Laine is young and has ton of time to get better but his impact in games has been overhyped.
He's been a finisher so far in his NHL career, rather than a driver.

I really want that to change now with 2 years under his belt.

There aren't too many players in the history of the game that are elite finishers or elite drivers, let alone both at the same time.

We have an elite finisher, let's accept what we have, an let him try to be both if we think he can be that unicorn, but let's not think he's going to do something that maybe no other player in the history of the game has done at 20 years old. I think our expectations of Laine are WAY out of whack.

If he turns out to be an Ovi (elite finisher), then use him as such. Give him an elite playmaker and enjoy the pairing.

 

[BB88]

There aren't too many players in the history of the game that are elite finishers or elite drivers, let alone both at the same time.

We have an elite finisher, let's accept what we have, an let him try to be both if we think he can be that unicorn, but let's not think he's going to do something that maybe no other player in the history of the game has done at 20 years old. I think our expectations of Laine are WAY out of whack.

If he turns out to be an Ovi (elite finisher), then use him as such. Give him an elite playmaker and enjoy the pairing.

All of the highest tier of superstars are drivers in their own way/nightmares to play against.

 

[Howard Chuck]

All of the highest tier of superstars are drivers in their own way/nightmares to play against.

Were any of them 19?

 

[BB88]

Were any of them 19?

Have you read the posts/your own reply?

 

[Howard Chuck]

Have you read the posts/your own reply?

It sounded like you were expecting Laine to become a superstar driver/finisher after his 19 year old season.

If not I apologize.

 

[BB88]

It sounded like you were expecting Laine to become a superstar driver/finisher after his 19 year old season.

If not I apologize.

You asked were any of them 19, which Laine won't be next season, he'll be 20y with 2 years under his belt in the league, for which the answer is yes. By that age we start to see superstars take their place in the league.

Laine doesn't need to be top5 player next year but with where he was drafted, the potential he was seen at the draft and what he has shown in his 1st 2 seasons next year he should take a good development step and have games where he starts to take over games.

In his prime I hope to see a nightmare to play against Laine who's a top5 player in the league, he has the potential for it, one of the best shots in the league with a 6'4 frame.

It's somewhat weird here at times when you read the crazy 120 point/60+ goal predictions for him and later read the player they expect Laine to be, a 1 dimensional finisher whose game is not going to get that much better.