Player Discussion: Patrik Laine - MOD WARNING IN OP

[Ippenator]

If any of that was true, why did Scheifele become such a good skater once he got a real skating coach? Laine needs to skate.

No, the most important thing for Scheifele improving his skating was not because of having skating instructors. Just like for another relatively big guy like Barkov (neither still as big as Laine though), he got for sure the most of his skating improvement from hard training for his leg explosiveness and stamina. The skating instructors only helped them a bit polish their skating. The real improvement for the acceleration and top speed was done at the gym for each of them.

 

[Ippenator]

Then why was American press surprised when Laine said he doesn’t skate at all during the summers? Are you saying American players are training incorrectly, and this one strength coach knows better than all of them? Also, his strength trainer is NOT going to suggest Laine to add skating to his regime, because he’d lose money by proposing that.

Rautala would lose no money if Laine would add skating to his summer training. If he would add the skating it would happen anyway after the intensive gym training is done already for the summer. It wouldn’t happen at the same time while he is doing the gym at all. That I can also assure you.

Also, Rautala would for sure lose completely Laine as a client if he would do something as shortsighted as you suggested. He is also a complete professional whom is clearly not doing what he is doing for just some short term money, but for developing his clients to become as good as possible and having long term clients in them.

It sure seems like you give very little respect to Rautala. I can see it from practically every comment you have about him and Laine’s training.

 

[gearmex]

Then why was American press surprised when Laine said he doesn’t skate at all during the summers? Are you saying American players are training incorrectly, and this one strength coach knows better than all of them? Also, his strength trainer is NOT going to suggest Laine to add skating to his regime, because he’d lose money by proposing that.

Not every people is like that only think for the money...i saw this in Asia when i was living there and to some point in US also. Not much in Europe.

 

[Whileee]

Rautala would lose no money if Laine would add skating to his summer training. If he would add the skating it would happen anyway after the intensive gym training is done already for the summer. It wouldn’t happen at the same time while he is doing the gym at all. That I can also assure you.

Also, Rautala would for sure lose completely Laine as a client if he would do something as shortsighted as you suggested. He is also a complete professional whom is clearly not doing what he is doing for just some short term money, but for developing his clients to become as good as possible and having long term clients in them.

It sure seems like you give very little respect to Rautala. I can see it from practically every comment you have about him and Laine’s training.

It's not that I don't "respect" Rautala, but there are many very good trainers and many NHL athletes that have been trained to a high level by trainers other than Rautala. Many of them include skating and on-ice training, and they improve substantially in strength and skating. Insisting that Rautala's training regimen is the only ideal one for Laine is narrow-minded, in my view. I can't really see any downside to Laine getting on the ice during the off-season and practicing his skating technique and agility, in addition to his off-ice training to improve his physical fitness and strength.

 

[Ippenator]

It's not that I don't "respect" Rautala, but there are many very good trainers and many NHL athletes that have been trained to a high level by trainers other than Rautala. Many of them include skating and on-ice training, and they improve substantially in strength and skating. Insisting that Rautala's training regimen is the only ideal one for Laine is narrow-minded, in my view. I can't really see any downside to Laine getting on the ice during the off-season and practicing his skating technique and agility, in addition to his off-ice training to improve his physical fitness and strength.

It would be using the minimal time that he has for catching up his peers exactly with his physical training which he absolutely needs to do to have any real grounds for improving his acceleration.

I don’t know how many millions of times it has to be repeated here, but Laine’s problems are not with his skating technique itself but his clear lack of raw explosive power in the legs as well as lacking stamina. It’s a waste of valuable training time for him to use the limited time that he has at the moment to train something that he has no clear problem with. They have chosen to instead completely concentrate in the areas that are causing him have the real problems with his skating. Which is in fact a very logical and wise decision. This is how it truly is and people claiming otherwise here are simply just wrong.

Oh, and just as a reminder, Laine is Finnish, so to expect him to ever really train his summers in North America with any North American trainers is extremely unrealistic. So what he will be doing is what other Finnish players do and have always done - hire the Finnish trainers with the best possible track records and train intensively with them.

Also to think that the Jets haven’t also given their blessing to Laine’s training plan, is just completely naive. He is that great an asset to them that no way they wouldn’t have a say to his training if they believed that his training focus was wrong. I’m getting already a bit tired of the completely false claims that people are making about Laine’s skating and his training. Just seems to me that some really fundamental important issues are completely negelected here, which makes this discussion honestly pretty much useless and irritating to me at least.

 

[sashalaine]

I think some people tend to neglect the fact that Jets also care about and follow Laine's summer practice, just like they should. At least in 2016 Slaunwhite, the Jets Director of Fitness was visiting Laine's summer practice (I think someone from Jets did last summer too, couldn't find the source).

And what did he say?

- This training pretty much follows my philosophy too. It was a pleasure to watch.

It's not like Rautala is this evil training business man who by himself decides how Laine will practice. Jets want Laine to be the best player he can be and so does Laine himself. If the Jets had been disappointed with how Laine progressed last summer, in my mind there's no way they would not change that.

 

[StatisticsAddict99]

I think some people tend to neglect the fact that Jets also care about and follow Laine's summer practice, just like they should. At least in 2016 Slaunwhite, the Jets Director of Fitness was visiting Laine's summer practice (I think someone from Jets did last summer too, couldn't find the source).

And what did he say?


It's not like Rautala is this evil training business man who by himself decides how Laine will practice. Jets want Laine to be the best player he can be and so does Laine himself. If the Jets had been disappointed with how Laine progressed last summer, in my mind there's no way they would not change that.

You know what I’m actually not that concerned, i here all these guys talking about fast twitch muscle fibres(I think I even talked about it myself) but you can’t really tell when your not in enough athletic shape to see, I mean Laines Top speed is excellent though(probably more due to his long stride) I agree getting there and moving side to side isn’t, but the kid looks just like that a kid, he definitely needs to work on his muscle and athleticism(I’m not knocking on him because he’s not ideally fit as an athlete either, it’s very fixable and it’s not that uncommon at all, but it is rare to find someone that tall and skinny and raw to be so successful in any sport). If and when the kid leans out we shall see if his skating gets better, it certainly worked for Scheifele and Barkov, lets just hope that’s the same case for Laine.

 

[Shaibu]

Is there any news of his training this summer?

 

[sashalaine]

Is there any news of his training this summer?

None has caught my eye yet. We'll probably hear something in the next couple days as he's playing the Finnish NHL players' tennis tournament with Kurri, Selänne etc again.

 

[Whileee]

It would be using the minimal time that he has for catching up his peers exactly with his physical training which he absolutely needs to do to have any real grounds for improving his acceleration.

I don’t know how many millions of times it has to be repeated here, but Laine’s problems are not with his skating technique itself but his clear lack of raw explosive power in the legs as well as lacking stamina. It’s a waste of valuable training time for him to use the limited time that he has at the moment to train something that he has no clear problem with. They have chosen to instead completely concentrate in the areas that are causing him have the real problems with his skating. Which is in fact a very logical and wise decision. This is how it truly is and people claiming otherwise here are simply just wrong.

Oh, and just as a reminder, Laine is Finnish, so to expect him to ever really train his summers in North America with any North American trainers is extremely unrealistic. So what he will be doing is what other Finnish players do and have always done - hire the Finnish trainers with the best possible track records and train intensively with them.

Also to think that the Jets haven’t also given their blessing to Laine’s training plan, is just completely naive. He is that great an asset to them that no way they wouldn’t have a say to his training if they believed that his training focus was wrong. I’m getting already a bit tired of the completely false claims that people are making about Laine’s skating and his training. Just seems to me that some really fundamental important issues are completely negelected here, which makes this discussion honestly pretty much useless and irritating to me at least.

Sorry you are irritated, but I think reasonable people can disagree.

It's your opinion that Laine doesn't need any work on his skating technique (stride, balance, etc.). I disagree. I think many young players can continue to work on their technique, just as they can work on their shot, puck handling, etc. Learning doesn't stop when you are 18.

I don't expect Laine to train with N. American trainers, but was pointing out that Finland isn't the only place that has very good trainers. I would also note that many NHL players that are top skaters include on-ice skating training to improve their skating technique. Here's an article highlighting many NHL stars who keep working on their skating technique to improve balance, agility, quickness, etc. (As NHL gets faster, players adjust offseason training to keep up).

Also, I found it interesting that Vesalainen is including quite a bit of on-ice practice with his training this summer in Finland.

We have examples of Jets players that trained inefficiently in the off-season, which was critiqued by the Jets. For example, Morrissey worked excessively on "bulking up" one off-season, and lost quickness (Josh Morrissey says bulking up for last year’s Winnipeg Jets training camp was a mistake). He indicated that he had to work with the Jets' training experts to change his training regimen. Ehlers had the same issue - worked too much on strength and lost his quickness and endurance.

So, I'm glad that Laine is working with a trainer that has a good record of developing strength and fitness. I still maintain that I think he could benefit from more training to improve his skating, like a large number of NHL players do. If I had seen a big improvement in his skating last season (compared to the previous season), I would be less concerned. But if anything, I thought Laine looked a bit slower in his second season than as a rookie.

 

[Legend Leinonen]

Well there's no need to train at all to gain mass.. But have you seen the legs of speed skater or a sprinters body. Those both are the result of muscle training. Skating and running doesn't give you any explosiveness, unless you'r talking about fine tuning your technique.

But they are still not training for mass. I don't know if this is a question of semantics or what, but I really don't like the klang of claiming that sprinters are training for mass. They are in fact training for power. There is slight but very real difference between the two. Of course when you train for power you are bound to gain also at least some muscle mass, but it is still different from the so called *bulk* mass training of a bodybuilder.

 

[grieves]

He may have looked slower but we don't know whether he actually was. He was surely a lot bigger so the fact that we were not able to see any improvement makes perfect sense.

Also, he JUST stopped being a teenager. Next season playing his pure 20yo season. There is so much work for him to do still that it is crazy to even assume anyone has the slightest idea on what he should work at right now.

This topic is beyond boring because only Laine and his trainer knows where they are at with his development. If they say he needs to gym up because of his weakling legs, then that is what they will do. It would be stupid to assume they just can't figure out that Laine needs to skate more. It's such a crazy idea.

Let's start foaming at the mouth in two years if there is still no improvement. He is sooooo young still, and has a huge frame. If some non-injured old-ass short guy decided they need to improve on their skating in the off-season, it bears no similarities to Laines situation currently.

I'm gonna rip my eyeballs out the next time we start talking about Laines skating before he is even close to his peak. Once or twice is fine but Jesus Christ. That said, I'm not the topic-police so you should not feel sorry for my eyeballs.

 

[ijuka]

Sigh. If one compares a power lifter's body to a bodybuilder's, the power lifter doesn't look impressive at all. In reality, especially in the lower weight groups many of the power lifters don't look very impressive at all. Some might even look scrawny. But they can lift incredible amounts of weight, outdoing bodybuilders who might weigh over 50% more. Training for strength is completely different from training for mass gain. Yes, mass follows strength to a point. But that's not the focus of any serious lifter. As for explosive training, that's also very different. Box jumping is explosive training. And weight lifted in an explosive manner(usually with significantly lower weight) is explosive training. But your usual mass building routine does nothing to specifically improve one's explosiveness.

As for running or skating, they definitely can help you gain explosiveness. For instance, if you spend sessions doing nothing but practicing your first 3 steps with maximum explosiveness, your explosiveness will improve. But more importantly, it becomes more automatic, refined an action. Again, it doesn't need to be some specific technique rework to be worthwhile.

 

[ps241]

Sorry you are irritated, but I think reasonable people can disagree.

It's your opinion that Laine doesn't need any work on his skating technique (stride, balance, etc.). I disagree. I think many young players can continue to work on their technique, just as they can work on their shot, puck handling, etc. Learning doesn't stop when you are 18.

I don't expect Laine to train with N. American trainers, but was pointing out that Finland isn't the only place that has very good trainers. I would also note that many NHL players that are top skaters include on-ice skating training to improve their skating technique. Here's an article highlighting many NHL stars who keep working on their skating technique to improve balance, agility, quickness, etc. (As NHL gets faster, players adjust offseason training to keep up).

Also, I found it interesting that Vesalainen is including quite a bit of on-ice practice with his training this summer in Finland.

We have examples of Jets players that trained inefficiently in the off-season, which was critiqued by the Jets. For example, Morrissey worked excessively on "bulking up" one off-season, and lost quickness (Josh Morrissey says bulking up for last year’s Winnipeg Jets training camp was a mistake). He indicated that he had to work with the Jets' training experts to change his training regimen. Ehlers had the same issue - worked too much on strength and lost his quickness and endurance.

So, I'm glad that Laine is working with a trainer that has a good record of developing strength and fitness. I still maintain that I think he could benefit from more training to improve his skating, like a large number of NHL players do. If I had seen a big improvement in his skating last season (compared to the previous season), I would be less concerned. But if anything, I thought Laine looked a bit slower in his second season than as a rookie.

Excellent post and I agree with you.

Lowry also mentioned he put on too much weight between his first and 2nd seasons and lost speed and quickness. Lowry is a good example of a tall player who improved his first step over the years.


I think the answer lies in the middle. As Laine transitions from his adolescenct build to more of that lean adult hockey physique I believe their will be natural improvements to the strength and puck shielding abilities in his game and as ijuka pointed out he will train for explosiveness as well......for the skating I would like to see him follow Barkov’s example and augment his training to make room for skating technique refinements. It made a big difference for Barkov and as the article points out lots of players do it now. The quality of specific skill focused coaching has exploded now and it’s good to take advantage.

 

[Maukkis]

Lets still compare a bit:

All star skating competition 2016 (similar way of competing as in 2017, for 2018 they changed the way of competing, so not comparable) compared with all star skating competition 2017:

2016
Participants/Results:
East:
Dylan Larkin, Detroit Red Wings / 12.894
Brandon Saad, Columbus Blue Jackets / 13.634
Erik Karlsson, Ottawa Senators / 14.630
Kris Letang, Pittsburgh Penguins / 14.081
West:
Roman Josi, Nashville Predators / 13.527
Matt Duchene, Colorado Avalanche / 14.026
Taylor Hall, Edmonton Oilers / 13.654
Dustin Byfuglien, Winnipeg Jets / 14.203

2017
Atlantic Division vs. Metropolitan Division
Kucherov (13.160) vs. Atkinson (13.330) - Atlantic wins 1 point
Trocheck (13.320) vs. Simmonds (13.650) - Atlantic wins 1 point
Central Division vs. Pacific Division
Laine (13.420) vs. Horvat (13.430) - Central wins 1 point
MacKinnon (13.620) vs. McDavid (13.020) - Pacific wins 1 point

In this post: using a sample size of one skating event to brush all the problems under a rug.

 

[Whileee]

Excellent post and I agree with you.

Lowry also mentioned he put on too much weight between his first and 2nd seasons and lost speed and quickness. Lowry is a good example of a tall player who improved his first step over the years.


I think the answer lies in the middle. As Laine transitions from his adolescenct build to more of that lean adult hockey physique I believe their will be natural improvements to the strength and puck shielding abilities in his game and as ijuka pointed out he will train for explosiveness as well......for the skating I would like to see him follow Barkov’s example and augment his training to make room for skating technique refinements. It made a big difference for Barkov and as the article points out lots of players do it now. The quality of specific skill focused coaching has exploded now and it’s good to take advantage.

I'd like Laine to come back a bit leaner this season, with a bit more quickness. He's got a huge frame, so he doesn't need much bulk to be able to out-muscle most players. Lowry is an excellent example of a player that has become "lean and mean" in his physique, and that combined with working on skating has really improved his quickness and effectiveness. Have a look at Lowry in this recent picture - very lean, but he almost never gets out-muscled and packs a punch when he hits.

 

[ps241]

I'd like Laine to come back a bit leaner this season, with a bit more quickness. He's got a huge frame, so he doesn't need much bulk to be able to out-muscle most players. Lowry is an excellent example of a player that has become "lean and mean" in his physique, and that combined with working on skating has really improved his quickness and effectiveness. Have a look at Lowry in this recent picture - very lean, but he almost never gets out-muscled and packs a punch when he hits.

Lowry is lean there for sure isn’t he. I ran into Patrik at a gas station the week after the playoffs ended for us and I agree he could lean out a touch while adding strength.

 

[abax44]

Laine basically has the equivalent of a dad bod, by NHL standards. He could stand to drop some fat and gain some lean mass. But whatever he does DO NOT work on skating, that'd be dumb.

 

[Howard Chuck]

S

If any of that was true, why did Scheifele become such a good skater once he got a real skating coach? Laine needs to skate.

Scheif didn't become a very good skater at all until he got a little older and built up some strength, much like Laine. Then he focused on refining his skating and then later his finess game.

Actually Laine is a much better skater at 20 than Mark was at the same age. People have to remember that a lanky 6'5" teenager (until just recently) is usually pretty uncoordinated. I think Laine is doing pretty darn good considering his age and body type.

The Jets, the trainers (Jets and in Finland) and Laine himself all want what is best for him, not only for this next season but for the next decade or two. I'm sure they know exactly what he can and can't do yet, and all have his best interests at heart.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

Last off season "He needs to get bigger"
This off season "He needs to get leaner"

Bipolar much?

 

[Ares]

This topic is beyond boring

I agree

 

[Howard Chuck]

Also, why are some assuming that Laine won't work on skating as well this summer? Let's follow the best we can and see what happens.

Again, he is still so young, and our expectations are so high because he is such an incredible talent already. I have faith in him and those in charge of his development.

I'll bet he skates a fair amount this summer.

 

[heilongjetsfan]

No, the most important thing for Scheifele improving his skating was not because of having skating instructors. Just like for another relatively big guy like Barkov (neither still as big as Laine though), he got for sure the most of his skating improvement from hard training for his leg explosiveness and stamina. The skating instructors only helped them a bit polish their skating. The real improvement for the acceleration and top speed was done at the gym for each of them.

Did you ever do that drill with a hockey stick balanced across 2 pylons and you have to jump sideways without knocking the stick over? Give him like 25 sticks and let him go all summer.

My biggest problem with Laine is his foot speed. He's really fast at top speed, but takes him forever to get to that.

These days, in the gym, I'm holding 15kg in each hand, squatting and jumping, and dropping the weights when I get to my peak. I dunno if that's an exercise that has a name or if I just made it up (in which case, I call it J-Jumps,) dude needs some explosiveness. Both in body and attitude.

 

[Romang67]

Last off season "He needs to get bigger"
This off season "He needs to get leaner"

Bipolar much?

Or, you know, it's not the same people saying these things.

I thought he needed to get quicker last off-season. Still do. Brute strength will naturally come with age.

 

[heilongjetsfan]

Last off season "He needs to get bigger"
This off season "He needs to get leaner"

Bipolar much?

Or he got bigger but not lean enough?

There are only so many things a person can accomplish in 4 months of training. That the goalposts move are generally a good thing. It means the biggest issue has been addressed at the very least to the point where it is now the second biggest issue.